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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Understanding the Differences in PC and Console Development

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48 posts found
  ProfRed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/03
Posts: 3557

 
OP  9/13/10 1:42:34 PM#21
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.

Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions.  Gamasutra.

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2702

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

9/13/10 1:43:59 PM#22

Excellent post and very similar to what I was trying to convey in that other thread that mysteriously disappeared. Anyway I have no issue with mmos released for PCs but destined for the console. SE is first and foremost a console developer. I understand that. And if you look at the history of mmos released on consoles:

  • EQOA
  • PSO series
  • FFXI
  • FFXIV

SE has dominated the console mmo market. It also showed that console mmos have come a long way in the visual department. I just wish more western devs could tap into it as well. I'd love to see another western version of a console mmo. It's been 7 years since the last time. Either way good read and I'll be lined up to get FFXIV as soon as the PS3 version is released.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  User Deleted
9/13/10 1:46:56 PM#23
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.

Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions.  Gamasutra.

That wasn't my point. According to you, the requirements are so vastly different that’s why they have such issues with porting it to the PC. Kind of funny, as the game is built on a PC platform, and then ported to the PS3.
 
Meanwhile Truth is, PS3 supports keyboard and mouse as well, as well as being a close hardware platform, won’t have to deal with the billions of hardware configurations.
 
So witch is it, the GUI and mouse are gimped because its going on the PS3 (that supports them) or The PC's performance is so bad, because the PS3 has lower hardware (but a closed single state hardware the usually represents a faster more powerful ability then a PC machine).
  ProfRed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/03
Posts: 3557

 
OP  9/13/10 1:48:58 PM#24

I am looking forward to more console MMO's as well.  It will be interesting to compare DCUO to FFXIV.  DCUO has seperate PS3 and PC versions that play on seperate servers.  I will be interested to see what that means for the lifetime of the game and what the game is like.  I have a feeling both versions will play out very much like an instanced console game though rather than a large open world like XIV.

There was news of a console only NCSoft MMO I believe as well.  I would love to see a game like Dragon Quest go for a console only MMO down the road too.

  ProfRed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/03
Posts: 3557

 
OP  9/13/10 1:52:05 PM#25
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.

Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions.  Gamasutra.

That wasn't my point. According to you, the requirements are so vastly different that’s why they have such issues with porting it to the PC. Kind of funny, as the game is built on a PC platform, and then ported to the PS3.
 
Meanwhile Truth is, PS3 supports keyboard and mouse as well, as well as being a close hardware platform, won’t have to deal with the billions of hardware configurations.
 
So witch is it, the GUI and mouse are gimped because its going on the PS3 (that supports them) or The PC's performance is so bad, because the PS3 has lower hardware (but a closed single state hardware the usually represents a faster more powerful ability then a PC machine).

Not trying to argue here.  This isn't about FFXIV being good or bad or anything in between.  It is just to bring to light the difficulties involved with putting a MMORPG onto a Console and PC.  The key difficulty being the RAM where you have 512mb total on a PS3 with only 256mb for Video and System Memory. 

This is just a discussion not an argument.  No need to troll or be negative here.  There are plenty of other threads for that.  I realize that this game isn't for you.  I realize that nothing I say will sway your decision and I don't want to sway it in the first place. 

  mochipixels

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 145

9/13/10 2:00:56 PM#26
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by robotsonik

Excellent post, OP.  Thanks for taking the time to sit down and explain this.  I played FFXI on the PS2 for years with the big goofy keyboard/ps2 controller hybrid.  

 

It was amazing how fast we all got on the controller, throwing macros and commands at the game....

It makes perfect sense when you understand they are bringing this to the PS3 audience in the spring and we'll be able to play cross-platform.

Cheers!

I want that keyboard!  I actually have this setup with drivers for PC and for PS3 at launch:

Still working on my typing thumbs, but I am getting pretty good.  Nothing like my wifes blackberry skills, but maybe one day.

haha! I know! It was big and clunky and brilliant!  I wish Logitech would update it for the PS3.  The little chat pad doesn't quite feel as comfortable.  I'm still getting used to it myself.

Anyway.  Good thread so far. It's so rare to find this sort of positive and informational thread on this forum these days. :P

  User Deleted
9/13/10 3:07:39 PM#27
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.

Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions.  Gamasutra.

That wasn't my point. According to you, the requirements are so vastly different that’s why they have such issues with porting it to the PC. Kind of funny, as the game is built on a PC platform, and then ported to the PS3.
 
Meanwhile Truth is, PS3 supports keyboard and mouse as well, as well as being a close hardware platform, won’t have to deal with the billions of hardware configurations.
 
So witch is it, the GUI and mouse are gimped because its going on the PS3 (that supports them) or The PC's performance is so bad, because the PS3 has lower hardware (but a closed single state hardware the usually represents a faster more powerful ability then a PC machine).

Not trying to argue here.  This isn't about FFXIV being good or bad or anything in between.  It is just to bring to light the difficulties involved with putting a MMORPG onto a Console and PC.  The key difficulty being the RAM where you have 512mb total on a PS3 with only 256mb for Video and System Memory. 

This is just a discussion not an argument.  No need to troll or be negative here.  There are plenty of other threads for that.  I realize that this game isn't for you.  I realize that nothing I say will sway your decision and I don't want to sway it in the first place. 

So, you are saying that the info in the OP that somehow explains away all the issues, you know nothing about? But thats why everything is the way it is "and you guys just don't understand".?

  unbound55

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/09
Posts: 328

9/13/10 3:13:10 PM#28

I do like that the OP put out a thoughtful, well constructed post that explains the differences between the two platforms.  It is important in understanding an important piece of  why the game has turned out they way it has.

 

As the OP pointed out, Sony was not willing to put the resources into 2 development paths which is how FF XIV could have been so much more than it is.  It is too bad, because the lore was compelling, and I was willing to give it a shot.

 

That said, as a consumer, the state of FF XIV does not appeal to me due largely to the limitations of the game.  It was a choice Sony made...as a consumer, I'm voting with my checkbook to tell them that they should have probably spent the money to go down the 2 development paths.

  User Deleted
9/13/10 3:20:15 PM#29
Thing is, all PS3 games are developed on PC platform, and ported. Most of the things he mentions as some kind of limitation for consoles is just standard practice.
 
This was one big giant apology piece.
  navyalc

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/06
Posts: 32

9/13/10 3:24:32 PM#30
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.

Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions.  Gamasutra.

That wasn't my point. According to you, the requirements are so vastly different that’s why they have such issues with porting it to the PC. Kind of funny, as the game is built on a PC platform, and then ported to the PS3.
 
Meanwhile Truth is, PS3 supports keyboard and mouse as well, as well as being a close hardware platform, won’t have to deal with the billions of hardware configurations.
 
So witch is it, the GUI and mouse are gimped because its going on the PS3 (that supports them) or The PC's performance is so bad, because the PS3 has lower hardware (but a closed single state hardware the usually represents a faster more powerful ability then a PC machine).

Not trying to argue here.  This isn't about FFXIV being good or bad or anything in between.  It is just to bring to light the difficulties involved with putting a MMORPG onto a Console and PC.  The key difficulty being the RAM where you have 512mb total on a PS3 with only 256mb for Video and System Memory. 

This is just a discussion not an argument.  No need to troll or be negative here.  There are plenty of other threads for that.  I realize that this game isn't for you.  I realize that nothing I say will sway your decision and I don't want to sway it in the first place. 

So, you are saying that the info in the OP that somehow explains away all the issues, you know nothing about? But thats why everything is the way it is "and you guys just don't understand".?

Looks like you're still trying to drag out an argument from some poor innocent poster.  Not sure you need to be hanging out in the forum of a game that you hate. Jumping neutral and positive contributers might be fun for you but don't be so dim.

  Zeblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/06
Posts: 943

9/13/10 3:28:05 PM#31
Originally posted by Uldah

Well said.

Maybe some haters can take the time to read and understand the why of thins before talking trash about a company thats bringing a great game for all pvers out there. On both PC and ps3.

dude did you even need to post this? Its like troll.. well haters? Dislke does not = hate.. play nice.. talk to others like you want to be talked to.. .. if you have nothing nice to say.. say nothing at all.  A fool that says nothing seems wise.. learn..

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7285

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

9/13/10 3:32:23 PM#32

I definitely disagree with memory being a main issue on consoles,  it is potentially an issue,  but we aren't running Windows on a PS3, with tons of background processes vying for resource time.  Games can easily be optimized when you don't have to create for hundreds of different hardware variations.  Yes, there are differences,  but they aren't so drastic that the two iterations of the same game have to be strikingly different mechanically that they can't possibly work.  

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  NyQuil81

Novice Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 105

9/13/10 3:37:14 PM#33
Originally posted by ProfRed

I am looking forward to more console MMO's as well.  It will be interesting to compare DCUO to FFXIV.  DCUO has seperate PS3 and PC versions that play on seperate servers.  I will be interested to see what that means for the lifetime of the game and what the game is like.  I have a feeling both versions will play out very much like an instanced console game though rather than a large open world like XIV.

There was news of a console only NCSoft MMO I believe as well.  I would love to see a game like Dragon Quest go for a console only MMO down the road too.

 The DCUO devs have stated that Gotham and Metropolis are both totally non-instanced, and each is many square miles, of active bustling city life.  Havent seen evidence yet, but that IS the claim.  DCUO will be full open world, and big at that.

  User Deleted
9/13/10 3:37:50 PM#34
Originally posted by navyalc
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Originally posted by ProfRed
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.

Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions.  Gamasutra.

That wasn't my point. According to you, the requirements are so vastly different that’s why they have such issues with porting it to the PC. Kind of funny, as the game is built on a PC platform, and then ported to the PS3.
 
Meanwhile Truth is, PS3 supports keyboard and mouse as well, as well as being a close hardware platform, won’t have to deal with the billions of hardware configurations.
 
So witch is it, the GUI and mouse are gimped because its going on the PS3 (that supports them) or The PC's performance is so bad, because the PS3 has lower hardware (but a closed single state hardware the usually represents a faster more powerful ability then a PC machine).

Not trying to argue here.  This isn't about FFXIV being good or bad or anything in between.  It is just to bring to light the difficulties involved with putting a MMORPG onto a Console and PC.  The key difficulty being the RAM where you have 512mb total on a PS3 with only 256mb for Video and System Memory. 

This is just a discussion not an argument.  No need to troll or be negative here.  There are plenty of other threads for that.  I realize that this game isn't for you.  I realize that nothing I say will sway your decision and I don't want to sway it in the first place. 

So, you are saying that the info in the OP that somehow explains away all the issues, you know nothing about? But thats why everything is the way it is "and you guys just don't understand".?

Looks like you're still trying to drag out an argument from some poor innocent poster.  Not sure you need to be hanging out in the forum of a game that you hate. Jumping neutral and positive contributers might be fun for you but don't be so dim.

He’s not neutral or positive. There are some real criticisms about the performance and GUI of this title, this post, as inaccurate as it is, was an attempt to clam its an issue between console and PC, and its not. He’s doing a great disservice to any fan of this game attempting to sweep it under the rug.
  seabeast

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 766

9/13/10 3:41:15 PM#35

While informative, I would rather not use a controller for any game, if I did perfer to do so I would save a ton of money buying a console...or steal my kids. I do like how consoles are now able to impliment keyboards and mouse setups and wonder how the reverse can be so poor in FFXIV.

  User Deleted
9/13/10 3:48:22 PM#36
Originally posted by OBK1

You wrote a great post about the differences and difficulties in game design and making an MMO for two platforms. But it can't be taken as an excuse for giving PC-gamers a UI that is not of this century.

I would have bought this game straight away if it had a PC-friendly UI, now I probably will not buy it at all, and I'm sure they are losing a lot of sales due to this. A poor UI makes the best of games mediocre.

If the PC UI is friendlier than the PS3 version, then why play it on the PS3?  IF you can use skills, access the menu, craft, gather, fish, explore far easier on the PC, then you essentially kill your PS3 market.

 

That game, by necessity has to play equally well (or equally poorly) on the PC and PS3.  IT's not hard to make a ui that is easy to use on PCs.  Heck, horrible mmo's get at least the UI right.  It's not that SE literally can't make a UI, it's just that they choose not to in order to make the PS3 version of the game viable.

 

Yes it sucks, but its a compromise.  It's especially more glaring when you consider that 60-70% of its playerbase will likely be japanese console gamers.  When you try to make a game work for two differnt systems, you HAVE TO make these type of compromises.  Some people arn't willing ot live with this explanation, and it's their right.  Just don't blame the developers motivations or intentions because this type of design is by necessity.

  Uldah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 165

9/13/10 5:13:57 PM#37
Originally posted by Zeblade
Originally posted by Uldah

Well said.

Maybe some haters can take the time to read and understand the why of thins before talking trash about a company thats bringing a great game for all pvers out there. On both PC and ps3.

dude did you even need to post this? Its like troll.. well haters? Dislke does not = hate.. play nice.. talk to others like you want to be talked to.. .. if you have nothing nice to say.. say nothing at all.  A fool that says nothing seems wise.. learn..

I guess you havent read half of the posts on ffxiv forums , all filled with angry trolls that feel like SE owns them somethin.If you arent a troll and you dislike , not hate the game then why are you quoting me ?. Is not directed to you that statment.I dont need you to educate me , but thanks for trying.Im old enough to take care of myself .

I think the OP put a very good info,if they still cant understand it and dislike or hate the game then just move on, no point hanging around trolling ( yes when you hang around a forum of somethin you dont like trying to find the tiniest of problems to make a 100 line post, on how disapointed you are, your clearly a troll)and leave it for the people who actually like to discuss the game based on facts and not stupidity like people who still refer of surplus as a mayor factor on the game.I will never argue facts and never stick opinions down people throat.That is indeed a fools errand.OP put down facts, he never said how good or bad does it make the game, that is your decision and yours only.

PS: on a side note on topic, FFXI always had this kind of policy , were PC and Console players would HAVE to play the same , with none having advantages( by advantages it means better UI, addons, etc), they made it as equal as posible so none of the sides felt like they were missing out.Im not saying is good or bad , but is how it will be once again on ffxiv.They did an awfull

Hate it or love it , thats your choice , the door is always right at the corner of the next mmo.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

9/13/10 5:14:16 PM#38



Originally posted by Hrayr2148
If the PC UI is friendlier than the PS3 version, then why play it on the PS3?  IF you can use skills, access the menu, craft, gather, fish, explore far easier on the PC, then you essentially kill your PS3 market.
 


And why do You assume that easier to play with PC(mouse and keyboard) means harder to play with gamepad? After all it's all about personal preferences. BOTH PC and PS3 users have access to both gamepad and keyboard and mouse. Make two viable UIs(as default k+m for PC and pad for PS3) and let players choose. Wanna sit on couch with controller - fine. Wanna play with k + m on desk, here You go. But SE went lazy way and said play or buzz off. As for examples - Dragon Age is first title that springs to my mind that was also console game with perfect PC UI.


Ah one more thing(I might be wrong here), didn't FF XI have much more PC subscribers than console?

  Uldah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 165

9/13/10 5:24:18 PM#39
Originally posted by crazynanny



Originally posted by Hrayr2148
If the PC UI is friendlier than the PS3 version, then why play it on the PS3?  IF you can use skills, access the menu, craft, gather, fish, explore far easier on the PC, then you essentially kill your PS3 market.
 


And why do You assume that easier to play with PC(mouse and keyboard) means harder to play with gamepad? After all it's all about personal preferences. BOTH PC and PS3 users have access to both gamepad and keyboard and mouse. Make two viable UIs(as default k+m for PC and pad for PS3) and let players choose. Wanna sit on couch with controller - fine. Wanna play with k + m on desk, here You go. But SE went lazy way and said play or buzz off. As for examples - Dragon Age is first title that springs to my mind that was also console game with perfect PC UI.


Ah one more thing(I might be wrong here), didn't FF XI have much more PC subscribers than console?

 

Not sure , but it definetly had the same crapy UI, so go figure, maybe people doesnt care so much bout this after all.I for one dont, im actually having a lot of fun now that i got my wyfe a beta key and playing together, its really 150% more fun than playing solo, i was really bored on beta, tbh.Just find it pointless to exp when is gonna be deleted.Cant wait for release.8 more days.
  User Deleted
9/13/10 5:24:26 PM#40
Originally posted by crazynanny

 



Originally posted by Hrayr2148
If the PC UI is friendlier than the PS3 version, then why play it on the PS3?  IF you can use skills, access the menu, craft, gather, fish, explore far easier on the PC, then you essentially kill your PS3 market.
 



And why do You assume that easier to play with PC(mouse and keyboard) means harder to play with gamepad? After all it's all about personal preferences. BOTH PC and PS3 users have access to both gamepad and keyboard and mouse. Make two viable UIs(as default k+m for PC and pad for PS3) and let players choose. Wanna sit on couch with controller - fine. Wanna play with k + m on desk, here You go. But SE went lazy way and said play or buzz off. As for examples - Dragon Age is first title that springs to my mind that was also console game with perfect PC UI.


Ah one more thing(I might be wrong here), didn't FF XI have much more PC subscribers than console?

No.  Majority of FFXI players were japanese console players, or PC controller players.  The ui device of choice was the controller regardless of the system.

 

This game is designed for the japanese mmo console market, which has ZERO competition.  SE is the only company thatis making an mmo of note.  People in japan do no play mmos and they do not play using the PC.  If SE made this game more PC friendly and NA/EU players in mind, they would lose more than half of their desired demographic.

 

People really need to stop thinking SE/FFXIV is anything like the mmos released in the last 3-4 years (Aion, Warhammer, Aoc, Lotro, etc etc).  If people went into FFXIV thinking it was going to be like those games was sorely mistaken.  The mistake was the players, not SE.  Though, SE is horrible at public relations.  

I think it's more of  a cultural difference that NA players fail to grasp rather than anything else.  To give you an analogy, it's like senior citizens complaining that the Scions are too small and they need to make them bigger.  Well, senior citizens are not the demographic that scion is most after.  They are after the young, single, demographic who wants ot customize their ride.

It wouldn't make sense for Scion to change their product to cater to the senior citizens when their whole design philosophy was premised around the younger crowd.   Same thing in this situation... it's NA PC gamers using mouse/keyboard vs.  Japanese console gamers.

 

If an NA player played FFXI using a controller, then they already knew how FFXIV was going to turn out.  That's why FFXI players are not surprised, shocked or that much disapointed.  IT's par for the course for SE.

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