I have a theory.

Back when I played EQ, I had to get used to a lot of new, different things regarding controls and gameplay within a MMO, it wasn't as easy as it is with themepark MMO's these days. The same applied to RTS games or FPS games the first times I started playing them, or other games with different controls and gameplay mechanics, it took some time to familiarise with them and to adapt to them.

A large part of the generation that was introduced into MMO gaming in the post-WoW era - with easy-mode gameplay as in WoW, Lotro and such - lacks those adaptive skills.

That's why you see so many complaints about the MMO's after WoW, where a lot of complaints and whining are about how a MMO misses or differs in features that WoW has. A lot of the MMO gamers are like some American tourists who when on holidays abroad still go to a McDonald's and Pizza Hut and do merely the guided tour excursions, instead of really getting to know the local population, culture and local cuisine.

UO, EQ, DAoC, FFXI, CoH and other pre-2004 definitely had a lot more flaws when they launched, but there was a lot less whining, and people playing them had a blast enjoying those games.

At the moment, I'm merely curious about FFXIV. I've looked at the flaws and complaints people posted and found most of them to be either whining or trivial: maybe it really is a problem for MMO gamers in the pampered post-2005 themepark era, but it's not something I'm concerned with. I've been MMO gaming longer and have had to adapt farther to play and enjoy several MMO's.

I'm aware that the controls setup has the primary focus for consoles, and that FFXIV is still beta.

What I would like to know is the following:

- after getting used to the controls, how does FFXIV actually play on them? What are the most stringent issues with them?

- how do the FFXIV controls compare to the FFXI ones?

Originally posted by cyphers

- after getting used to the controls, how does FFXIV actually play on them? What are the most stringent issues with them?

Controls are fine once you get used to it.  The only downside is the UI lag that's still present today.  I'll admit, I'm spoiled by the post-WoW games.  When I cllick on something I want it to come up instantly, the 3-10 second lag when navigating through menus or trying to craft is extremely annoying.

- how do the FFXIV controls compare to the FFXI ones?

They're pretty much the same as far as I can tell.

The game plays okay with the controls.  The big thing, even when you're used to it, is spamming an attack ability that seems to have no cooldown when you have enough stamina to use it and nothing happening for a random interval of time.  2.1 seconds between one of the same attack and another.  2.8.  1.7.  How does it work and why?  It's annoying because it spams an error sound if you spam.  But you pretty much have to.

That and interface lag with everything.  It has been patched up a bit, but...  Step A to step B still likes to curve around to step M as a detour and accepted options take a long time to activate or happen.

I'd also like to add that it's not really a lack of adaptability when it comes to MMO gamers.. it's a lack of willingless to devolve.  If the system was innovative rather than just pointlessly annoying then sure, there'd still be complainers, but there would be just as many individuals who preferred the new system and could use it to its optimal efficiency better than previous systems.  It seems that you should either stick with something CLOSE to conventions or try something MORE intuitive rather than less.  All my opinion of course, including my experience.  Some may believe that this new system is innovative.  I simply disagree.

Haven't played FFXI so I can't help you there though I have seen many a post where FFXI players or former players either think the system is okay or backwards, far fewer who actually support it and say that it's an improvement or that they like it.  I have no proof of this so grain of salt or trust.

Thanks.

Wow...the elitist, veteran who's toughness and resilience are only outdone by his/her ridiculous thoughts that gamers should shut up and sit down and enjoy a game even if it's not enjoyable.  That's very Castro of you :)

It's pretty sad that SE has been told time and time and time and time again that their UI, targetting and lag in between menus needs fixin (way back in 1rst beta) and still nothing has been done about it.  This isnt as easy as adapting to a new way of doing things, it's regressing back to barbaric baby steps (think Dragon Warrior when you had to pull up a menu to go up stairs, hit stairs and then hit yes to climb).  I hope they fix this, but ya never know....I think SE knows how to tell a great story, but that's about it....

Originally posted by chaod1984

Wow...the elitist, veteran who's toughness and resilience are only outdone by his/her ridiculous thoughts that gamers should shut up and sit down and enjoy a game even if it's not enjoyable.  That's very Castro of you :)

Oh, you can whine, complain, nag, rant all you want, mate, I mean go wild all you like

A lot of the complaints and whining have the root cause of MMO gamers not wanting to stray away too far from the themepark features they're familiar with or don't want to adapt to something different; those complaints and whines are irrelevant to me personally.

Originally posted by Dameonk

- after getting used to the controls, how does FFXIV actually play on them? What are the most stringent issues with them?

Controls are fine once you get used to it.  The only downside is the UI lag that's still present today.  I'll admit, I'm spoiled by the post-WoW games.  When I cllick on something I want it to come up instantly, the 3-10 second lag when navigating through menus or trying to craft is extremely annoying.

Originally posted by Fortenc

That and interface lag with everything.  It has been patched up a bit, but...  Step A to step B still likes to curve around to step M as a detour and accepted options take a long time to activate or happen.

I'd also like to add that it's not really a lack of adaptability when it comes to MMO gamers.. it's a lack of willingless to devolve.  If the system was innovative rather than just pointlessly annoying then sure, there'd still be complainers, but there would be just as many individuals who preferred the new system and could use it to its optimal efficiency better than previous systems.  It seems that you should either stick with something CLOSE to conventions or try something MORE intuitive rather than less.  All my opinion of course, including my experience.  Some may believe that this new system is innovative.  I simply disagree.

I don't think the system is innovative, it's a step back; it doesn't matter to me though when it only takes a few hours to get into it and you can play the game adequately with them.

Lag is different, it's a serious hindrance: is there news that this will improve, has it already improved in the last few months?

Thanks for the advice and for the fair opinion

People don't want to adapt, that's it. Even though the controls are extremely similar to the ones in FFXI, the market have changed a lot since the release of FFXI. It doesn't matter if the game is a niche game like this here FFXIV, people want to be served with a game that suits them, no matter what. If the game doesn't do just that, well.. take a look on the boards and you get the picture.

Personally I don't see the huge problem, obviously there's some minor issues with UI lag right now and that might or might not be due to the beta status of the game. The mouse lag issue have already been corrected by a series of third party programs, so the chances of there being solutions to that at release are pretty high.

Most of all though, people are upset over that Square Enix "limits" their enjoyment of a potential game by crippling them with the controls that have worked for the company in the past.

I've been playing games since the Vic 20, Atari 2600, Colecovision days. I've played every major and many not so major MMO since UO, EQ, etc. I've learned countless control schemes over the years.

Each new game I've played has tried to improve on games that came before. Some games tried to introduce new, unique features. All (or nearly) have tried to improve. Innovate. They strive to create intuitive interfaces. They strive to give the player the power to easily perform common actions. They strive to reduce redundancy of actions. To take away needless steps. To provide short-cuts.

Good developers attempt to make the interface (whether it's a game, a business tool, or whatever) in such a way that you can actually forget about the interface and spend more time doing what the core is. In MMOs the core is being immersed in the environment, in the story, in the activities.

FFXIV seems to have taken many steps back. Instead of trying to improve on any powerful, intuitive tools created over the years they seem to have added extra steps. Instead of making it easy for the user to quickly do things they seem to have done their best to force the user to exit their world to deal with menus before getting back into the world.

This isn't about user laziness. This isn't about the inability to adapt. This isn't about the intelligence of users. This isn't about users not wanting a complex game.

I love complex games. I get bored of simple 1, 2, 3 mashing. I love options.

FFXIV's interface isn't complex. It's pretty simple in fact. It's just full of extra useless steps. It offers very little options. It feels as though FFXIV gives you one way to do things and that's it. Whereas every other game gives you 2 or 3 ways to do something and on top of that lets you customize within those 2 or 3 ways.

In most games I can change the way I play depending on my situation. If I'm sitting at my gaming rig and am focusing on the game I can play one way. If I'm on the couch on my laptop I can play another way. If my laptop is on the stool while I'm dividing my attention on other things I can play yet another way. With FFXIV that's not as easily done if at all.

The game, the world, the story seems nice. The interface just seems like it took 3 or 4 steps back in the evolution of human/machine interaction though.

A few things really could be more intuitive. I am not complaining. I for one, am really loving the game more each time I play. I mean fishing...good gosh! It's addicting as all heck even when you don't catch stuff!

One of the little things I noticed yesterday during multiple trips to the vendor (bait for fishing of course!) was the inability to buy something and then walk away from the vendor without multiple windows to close (Done, Exit etc) . I bought my worms, larva etc and now I should be able to walk away...whoops. Not yet. Menu, menu, menu..okay now go fish.

Not a game breaker or even a game bender. Just little 'normal' actions that are too complex and as far as I can tell would have no difference on the social or economic systems.

Oh well. Back to fishing! Tally Ho!

The jap devs are lazy, for not having a vertical axys ingame to allow jumping, they are the lazy ones that dont adapt to the modern market of mmorpgs...why are the forums flooded with people bashing the game? are they all haters with nothing to do? dont think so...where there is smoke there is fire..and FF14 is just burning...

I've played the game with a 360 controller for about a week. I may or may not it setup incorrectly, but out of combat I hever have an issue with its setup. My D-pad is set to select target.

In combat, I actually have to grab my mouse to target. In active mode the Dpad switches to skill selection control. To not use the mouse, i'd have to exit combat/active mode, select the target, then reenter combat.

I also have a macro setup to target nearest npc...which the game somehow doesnt seem to understand the concept of nearest.

I'll tell you what. I'm a game vet, I've played some very strange games, on consoles and computers (Atari, Amiga, Commodore, PC...), since the 80's. Basically my approach with any gameplay is that, "if you can do it, I can do it". So I usually try harder if I fail to play well at first. 

With FF XIV, I initially used a controller as most people; a few days ago with the improvement of the UI lag I tried m/k again. Long story short: I managed to play in any configuration (controller, m/k, keyboard only). 

But is it enjoyable? Well... no. It could have been in 2000, clearly not today after having tested what-many MMOs and games altogether, even the worst (which gives me low reference points). I mean... sure you feel good when you launch a spell... because it's been such a pain to reach that point (way too many intermediary states, random failures not well explained, UI giving false information, lag of the server-side...) If you just tried to deal with 50 items with your retainer, or craft, say, 20 items, then you'll know what is a "painful timesink" in a MMO. 

Is FF XIV "fun" to play, as I found it enjoyable and psychologically rewarding to play FF V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII, even XIII? (well, that latter less than others, that's for sure)

No. It's tedious, it seems that Square has added as many obstacles and unnecessary steps as they could imagine, to make it harder for the player. Only to me, struggling with controls and interface isn't "harder", it's not some hardcore feature I long for; no, to me, it's just "worse". Worse than what? Than any FF, but than XI too, an 8 years old game. Which is the height of ridiculousness.

Entering combat, using spells is all but fluent, let alone intuitive. It's a pain to deal with target change when it's locked or when you lose it for some reason. Using the keyboard 1-9 keys to launch spells could be fine, if it wasn't such a pain to reach lines 2 and 3. And you can't remap those keys so far... pfff it's not because of "beta", it's just a total lack of insight. Buying/selling items to NPCs take forever. The menus are sluggish--if you scroll too fast, your list just jump to the other end or goes back to the beginning.

Believe me, I've played games with absolutely ridiculously bad or unintuitive controls. FF XIV is certainly well-placed in my black list on this regard, and that's no small feat in my book. It's not only bad, it's slow, which is infuriating at times, frustrating always. Even before I log in, I feel apprehensive, knowing that I'm gonna have to spend 10 minutes selling or giving 60+ items to my retainer, should I have not done it before my last log out. That's bad, when in-game problems tend to reach out of the game itself and pursue the gamer everytime he thinks about playing.

Which is why I believe the gameplay of FF XIV can be called "a gamebreaker" in the dev slang.

SE really needs to re-take game design 101.

Originally posted by cyphers

I have a theory.

Back when I played EQ, I had to get used to a lot of new, different things regarding controls and gameplay within a MMO, it wasn't as easy as it is with themepark MMO's these days. The same applied to RTS games or FPS games the first times I started playing them, or other games with different controls and gameplay mechanics, it took some time to familiarise with them and to adapt to them.

I can understand having to get used to the gameplay of every or at least most new game u play, but not the control scheme. When i first played an FPS on the computer, think it was Dark Forces, I remember the controls being almost exactly as they where with Quake, Doom, Half-Life, and pretty much every other game in that genre. Now when i switched genres to RTS like C&C then yes I had to get used to different controls because it was a different GENRE.

A large part of the generation that was introduced into MMO gaming in the post-WoW era - with easy-mode gameplay as in WoW, Lotro and such - lacks those adaptive skills.

Easy mode gameplay as you call it has nothing to do with adaptability. The fact is you shouldnt have to adapt to a wildly different control scheme to every other game in the genre, the control schemes should be mostly universal.

That's why you see so many complaints about the MMO's after WoW, where a lot of complaints and whining are about how a MMO misses or differs in features that WoW has. A lot of the MMO gamers are like some American tourists who when on holidays abroad still go to a McDonald's and Pizza Hut and do merely the guided tour excursions, instead of really getting to know the local population, culture and local cuisine.

Nothing to do with anything at all because people arent complaining about the control schemes for games after or even before WOW, they're complaining about the gameplay which is not even close to the same thing as controls and interface

UO, EQ, DAoC, FFXI, CoH and other pre-2004 definitely had a lot more flaws when they launched, but there was a lot less whining, and people playing them had a blast enjoying those games.

 The other ones on your list I cant comment on cause its ben forever since i played them but CoH has pretty much the same controls as WOW. FFXI did not but it also wasnt as clunky as this one is 

At the moment, I'm merely curious about FFXIV. I've looked at the flaws and complaints people posted and found most of them to be either whining or trivial: maybe it really is a problem for MMO gamers in the pampered post-2005 themepark era, but it's not something I'm concerned with. I've been MMO gaming longer and have had to adapt farther to play and enjoy several MMO's.

 

I'm aware that the controls setup has the primary focus for consoles, and that FFXIV is still beta.

What I would like to know is the following:

- after getting used to the controls, how does FFXIV actually play on them? What are the most stringent issues with them?

- how do the FFXIV controls compare to the FFXI ones?

Originally posted by sschrupp

I've been playing games since the Vic 20, Atari 2600, Colecovision days. I've played every major and many not so major MMO since UO, EQ, etc. I've learned countless control schemes over the years.

Each new game I've played has tried to improve on games that came before. Some games tried to introduce new, unique features. All (or nearly) have tried to improve. Innovate. They strive to create intuitive interfaces. They strive to give the player the power to easily perform common actions. They strive to reduce redundancy of actions. To take away needless steps. To provide short-cuts.

Good developers attempt to make the interface (whether it's a game, a business tool, or whatever) in such a way that you can actually forget about the interface and spend more time doing what the core is. In MMOs the core is being immersed in the environment, in the story, in the activities.

FFXIV seems to have taken many steps back. Instead of trying to improve on any powerful, intuitive tools created over the years they seem to have added extra steps. Instead of making it easy for the user to quickly do things they seem to have done their best to force the user to exit their world to deal with menus before getting back into the world.

This isn't about user laziness. This isn't about the inability to adapt. This isn't about the intelligence of users. This isn't about users not wanting a complex game.

I love complex games. I get bored of simple 1, 2, 3 mashing. I love options.

FFXIV's interface isn't complex. It's pretty simple in fact. It's just full of extra useless steps. It offers very little options. It feels as though FFXIV gives you one way to do things and that's it. Whereas every other game gives you 2 or 3 ways to do something and on top of that lets you customize within those 2 or 3 ways.

In most games I can change the way I play depending on my situation. If I'm sitting at my gaming rig and am focusing on the game I can play one way. If I'm on the couch on my laptop I can play another way. If my laptop is on the stool while I'm dividing my attention on other things I can play yet another way. With FFXIV that's not as easily done if at all.

The game, the world, the story seems nice. The interface just seems like it took 3 or 4 steps back in the evolution of human/machine interaction though.

That part right there. Every program you use, whether it be a game or a word processor, has gotten EASIER to use over the years.

course, I could be just a lazy wow baby...

Originally posted by DrSpanky

Originally posted by sschrupp

I've been playing games since the Vic 20, Atari 2600, Colecovision days. I've played every major and many not so major MMO since UO, EQ, etc. I've learned countless control schemes over the years.

Each new game I've played has tried to improve on games that came before. Some games tried to introduce new, unique features. All (or nearly) have tried to improve. Innovate. They strive to create intuitive interfaces. They strive to give the player the power to easily perform common actions. They strive to reduce redundancy of actions. To take away needless steps. To provide short-cuts.

Good developers attempt to make the interface (whether it's a game, a business tool, or whatever) in such a way that you can actually forget about the interface and spend more time doing what the core is. In MMOs the core is being immersed in the environment, in the story, in the activities.

FFXIV seems to have taken many steps back. Instead of trying to improve on any powerful, intuitive tools created over the years they seem to have added extra steps. Instead of making it easy for the user to quickly do things they seem to have done their best to force the user to exit their world to deal with menus before getting back into the world.

This isn't about user laziness. This isn't about the inability to adapt. This isn't about the intelligence of users. This isn't about users not wanting a complex game.

I love complex games. I get bored of simple 1, 2, 3 mashing. I love options.

FFXIV's interface isn't complex. It's pretty simple in fact. It's just full of extra useless steps. It offers very little options. It feels as though FFXIV gives you one way to do things and that's it. Whereas every other game gives you 2 or 3 ways to do something and on top of that lets you customize within those 2 or 3 ways.

In most games I can change the way I play depending on my situation. If I'm sitting at my gaming rig and am focusing on the game I can play one way. If I'm on the couch on my laptop I can play another way. If my laptop is on the stool while I'm dividing my attention on other things I can play yet another way. With FFXIV that's not as easily done if at all.

The game, the world, the story seems nice. The interface just seems like it took 3 or 4 steps back in the evolution of human/machine interaction though.

That part right there. Every program you use, whether it be a game or a word processor, has gotten EASIER to use over the years.

100% agreed. 

The Major problem is "floating cursor" is NOT responsive ENOUGH to make it enjoyable experience.  I learned the UI fairly quickly for FFXIV, it's not that hard but unresponsiveness of the cursor result in I have to use keyboard to scroll through menu which it might be fine for console but it is very unfriendly for PC users.  It's just my opinion.  Of course, if you want to play it, you will make enough excuses to play the game.  I remember when I really wanted to find a game to play after WAR, I made enough excuses to convince myself and others to play Aion and 3 months later, Aion was just boring...

This time I am not going to make any excuses for FFXIV, Sorry Square you made a BAD game and I am not going to pay for it.  I am going to cancel my CE pre order today.  Not just UI (controlling system) is bad, a lot of aspects of the game are horrible.  It's just not up to my standard or my dream & hope a new FF game should be.

Originally posted by Ikkei

I'll tell you what. I'm a game vet, I've played some very strange games, on consoles and computers (Atari, Amiga, Commodore, PC...), since the 80's. Basically my approach with any gameplay is that, "if you can do it, I can do it". So I usually try harder if I fail to play well at first. 

With FF XIV, I initially used a controller as most people; a few days ago with the improvement of the UI lag I tried m/k again. Long story short: I managed to play in any configuration (controller, m/k, keyboard only). 

But is it enjoyable? Well... no. It could have been in 2000, clearly not today after having tested what-many MMOs and games altogether, even the worst (which gives me low reference points). I mean... sure you feel good when you launch a spell... because it's been such a pain to reach that point (way too many intermediary states, random failures not well explained, UI giving false information, lag of the server-side...) If you just tried to deal with 50 items with your retainer, or craft, say, 20 items, then you'll know what is a "painful timesink" in a MMO. 

Is FF XIV "fun" to play, as I found it enjoyable and psychologically rewarding to play FF V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII, even XIII? (well, that latter less than others, that's for sure)

No. It's tedious, it seems that Square has added as many obstacles and unnecessary steps as they could imagine, to make it harder for the player. Only to me, struggling with controls and interface isn't "harder", it's not some hardcore feature I long for; no, to me, it's just "worse". Worse than what? Than any FF, but than XI too, an 8 years old game. Which is the height of ridiculousness.

Entering combat, using spells is all but fluent, let alone intuitive. It's a pain to deal with target change when it's locked or when you lose it for some reason. Using the keyboard 1-9 keys to launch spells could be fine, if it wasn't such a pain to reach lines 2 and 3. And you can't remap those keys so far... pfff it's not because of "beta", it's just a total lack of insight. Buying/selling items to NPCs take forever. The menus are sluggish--if you scroll too fast, your list just jump to the other end or goes back to the beginning.

Believe me, I've played games with absolutely ridiculously bad or unintuitive controls. FF XIV is certainly well-placed in my black list on this regard, and that's no small feat in my book. It's not only bad, it's slow, which is infuriating at times, frustrating always. Even before I log in, I feel apprehensive, knowing that I'm gonna have to spend 10 minutes selling or giving 60+ items to my retainer, should I have not done it before my last log out. That's bad, when in-game problems tend to reach out of the game itself and pursue the gamer everytime he thinks about playing.

Which is why I believe the gameplay of FF XIV can be called "a gamebreaker" in the dev slang.

SE really needs to re-take game design 101.

That sums it up perfectly for me.

Well thanks this is a unique new spin...  The problem isn't with the game but with the players...

haha

Sorry, if you can't make a mouse/keyboard interface for a windows pc game in 2010 that's intuitive and comfortable, you screwed up.

I do things in MMO, or any other game, for two reasons

a) It's fun

b) It's required to have fun

Playing a minigame with the controls certainly isn't fun, and I'm sure the devs don't hold any illusion that the controls would be fun either. Controls are the required means to control the character and have fun, and WoW has set the standard for how much controlling is required for MMORPG. Because I'm not able to control my character with as little effort as I can do it in WoW, even tough I'm not doing any more actions with nor making any more complicated choises about what to do with my character, FF XIV has failed to meet that standard.

I might be able to adapt and tolerate it if I think the game is otherwise fun enough. But I'm going to complain because from my point of view the game controls are a failure.

I think the fundamental of good design is any medium is you don't notice it's there. That doesn't mean you can't see it, but that it is unobtrusive to the task.

I think the next MMO company should hire someone like Apple to design it's interface.