Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Nerf09

What happened is; someone ruined SWG, and now there's 200,000 people out there trolling gaming forums.  GIVE US OUR SWG-type GAME BACK OR WE'LL NEVER LEAVE HAHA!  (We're the terrorists of the MMORPG community, hehe).

SWG was losing 10k subs a month BEFORE NGE.  It was already ruined.

I tend to think there just aren't that many gamers who want a pure sandbox like Eve or how SWG was initially.  It's a relatively small part of the MMO market.

It was losing subs due to severe bugs and balance issues that the Devs weren't addressing... they were too busy making the CU, and NGE. Not to mention the assinine Jedi systems that never should have been in the game.

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

Originally posted by illorion

uh dawntide looks a little..... ummm rough. Like it was made 10 years ago or something

Even more.  EQ1 looked better at release.  Dawntide ingame looks like it was made with that free tribes 1 engine, with models gliding instead of walking.

Those who want a true 'sandbox' are few in numbers.  Those that haven't gone bankrupt yet have few players currently.  The majority of players do not have the patience to deal with this sort of environment.  Those who want an open pvp game (but call it a sandbox) are also a niche community, though bigger than those craving a sandbox.  Most open pvp games post UO end up dwindling and dieing off, as many can't deal with the frustration that comes with open pvp and human nature.  It also doesn't help that those who crave these types of games are often over-analytical and negative.  When a game is released, they manage to enhance every flaw with the game and use it as means not to play.  It is a cycle that has been occuring on these and other forums continuously.

Originally posted by Ceridith

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

It drew lots of attention because of the Star Wars IP, simple as that. It kept bleeding subs because SWG didn't provide the Star Wars experience lots of MMO gamers had hoped and were looking for.

Short answer: Those that were actually released failed, failed, failed, failed, epic failed, failed, and then failed somemore, so less and less companies are willing to invest the budget required to risk trying to create a successful one.

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by Ceridith

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

It drew lots of attention because of the Star Wars IP, simple as that. It kept bleeding subs because SWG didn't provide the Star Wars experience lots of MMO gamers had hoped and were looking for.

 Exactly. It got the 200 k subs off the star wars IP, than when people tried to play it and realized how BORING it was, it began to lose all those people and eventually to a game like WoW.

That is when the dev team and the marketters stepped in and said. "We are losing too many people, we have to stop the bleeding"

Then they went on to piss off the remaining players who liked the whole game set up. It was all just one big unfortunate catasrophe.

To me FFXI, & now to be FFXIV, are story driven PvE sandboxes. No, sandboxe doesn't have to be FFA PvP full loot you freaks!

Ok, maybe its not perfect, but its pretty close... here:

- You can do everything with one char.

- The game doesn't tell you what do & how do to it.

- Zones aren't sub divided by level range, you always have to be careful in your travel.

- More player interdependancy than most game out there.

- Meaningful housing. ( No its doesn't have to be a non instance clusterf**k)

- You can build your classe however you want it. ( with some restriction )

- I'm sure i'm forgetting some more aspect here...

- The only thing it is missing, is the ability to affect the world... Which FFXIV might have in one way or another, who knows.

Anyways, say what you will, FFA PvP full loot game ( what you call sandboxe ) are dead, no money is to be made on that type of game. I see it staying that way until real tough consequences are put in place to control criminal behavior, period.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Nerf09

What happened is; someone ruined SWG, and now there's 200,000 people out there trolling gaming forums.  GIVE US OUR SWG-type GAME BACK OR WE'LL NEVER LEAVE HAHA!  (We're the terrorists of the MMORPG community, hehe).

SWG was losing 10k subs a month BEFORE NGE.  It was already ruined.

I tend to think there just aren't that many gamers who want a pure sandbox like Eve or how SWG was initially.  It's a relatively small part of the MMO market.

It was losing subs due to severe bugs and balance issues that the Devs weren't addressing... they were too busy making the CU, and NGE. Not to mention the assinine Jedi systems that never should have been in the game.

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

This proves that merely being a sandbox does not make a game good.  SWG had major design flaws flaws from the beginning and the sandbox elements simply made it more passable to players.  Once the sandbox elements were played out, people found out there there was nothing more to the game.  Housing and a complex crafting system will not sustain the game by itself if the rest is full of bugs and unfinished content.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Nerf09

What happened is; someone ruined SWG, and now there's 200,000 people out there trolling gaming forums.  GIVE US OUR SWG-type GAME BACK OR WE'LL NEVER LEAVE HAHA!  (We're the terrorists of the MMORPG community, hehe).

SWG was losing 10k subs a month BEFORE NGE.  It was already ruined.

I tend to think there just aren't that many gamers who want a pure sandbox like Eve or how SWG was initially.  It's a relatively small part of the MMO market.

It was losing subs due to severe bugs and balance issues that the Devs weren't addressing... they were too busy making the CU, and NGE. Not to mention the assinine Jedi systems that never should have been in the game.

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

This proves that merely being a sandbox does not make a game good.  SWG had major design flaws flaws from the beginning and the sandbox elements simply made it more passable to players.  Once the sandbox elements were played out, people found out there there was nothing more to the game.  Housing and a complex crafting system will not sustain the game by itself if the rest is full of bugs and unfinished content.

Merely making a game of any type does not guarantee a good game. Why, over many posts from you, do you think that Sandbox players want a lackluster game that only has housing and complex crafting? We Sandbox gamers do not accept your definition of what we want.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Nerf09

What happened is; someone ruined SWG, and now there's 200,000 people out there trolling gaming forums.  GIVE US OUR SWG-type GAME BACK OR WE'LL NEVER LEAVE HAHA!  (We're the terrorists of the MMORPG community, hehe).

SWG was losing 10k subs a month BEFORE NGE.  It was already ruined.

I tend to think there just aren't that many gamers who want a pure sandbox like Eve or how SWG was initially.  It's a relatively small part of the MMO market.

It was losing subs due to severe bugs and balance issues that the Devs weren't addressing... they were too busy making the CU, and NGE. Not to mention the assinine Jedi systems that never should have been in the game.

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

This proves that merely being a sandbox does not make a game good.  SWG had major design flaws flaws from the beginning and the sandbox elements simply made it more passable to players.  Once the sandbox elements were played out, people found out there there was nothing more to the game.  Housing and a complex crafting system will not sustain the game by itself if the rest is full of bugs and unfinished content.

Merely making a game of any type does not guarantee a good game. Why, over many posts from you, do you think that Sandbox players want a lackluster game that only has housing and complex crafting? We Sandbox gamers do not accept your definition of what we want.

Where did you get a weird idea like that?

Personally I consider myself a sandbox player since I played SWG, EVE and A Tale in the Desert.  However, there seems to be a group of people on these forums who call themselves 'sandbox players' that seem to think that there is some conspiracy against sandbox games and are unwilling to consider that the old sandbox games they revere had some major flaws that made them uplayable to a lot of other people who would consider themselves 'sandbox players'. 

SWG had a neat housing system, a player city system with great potential, a complex crafting system with a really lousy UI, a mediocre combat system with obvious flaws and a pointlessly grindy and limited leveling/skill system.  These things are the reason why I really got into the game for about two months and then quit it way before any CU or NGE.  It had very intiguing concepts and ideas combined with a weak design and terrible execution.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Nerf09

What happened is; someone ruined SWG, and now there's 200,000 people out there trolling gaming forums.  GIVE US OUR SWG-type GAME BACK OR WE'LL NEVER LEAVE HAHA!  (We're the terrorists of the MMORPG community, hehe).

SWG was losing 10k subs a month BEFORE NGE.  It was already ruined.

I tend to think there just aren't that many gamers who want a pure sandbox like Eve or how SWG was initially.  It's a relatively small part of the MMO market.

It was losing subs due to severe bugs and balance issues that the Devs weren't addressing... they were too busy making the CU, and NGE. Not to mention the assinine Jedi systems that never should have been in the game.

The fact that SWG was a sandbox had little to do with it losing subs. If it were, the game never would have drawn the attention of 200k subs.

This proves that merely being a sandbox does not make a game good.  SWG had major design flaws flaws from the beginning and the sandbox elements simply made it more passable to players.  Once the sandbox elements were played out, people found out there there was nothing more to the game.  Housing and a complex crafting system will not sustain the game by itself if the rest is full of bugs and unfinished content.

Merely making a game of any type does not guarantee a good game. Why, over many posts from you, do you think that Sandbox players want a lackluster game that only has housing and complex crafting? We Sandbox gamers do not accept your definition of what we want.

Where did you get a weird idea like that?

Personally I consider myself a sandbox player since I played SWG, EVE and A Tale in the Desert.  However, there seems to be a group of people on these forums who call themselves 'sandbox players' that seem to think that there is some conspiracy against sandbox games and are unwilling to consider that the old sandbox games they revere had some major flaws that made them uplayable to a lot of other people who would consider themselves 'sandbox players'. 

SWG had a neat housing system, a player city system with great potential, a complex crafting system with a really lousy UI, a mediocre combat system with obvious flaws and a pointlessly grindy and limited leveling/skill system.  These things are the reason why I really got into the game for about two months and then quit it way before any CU or NGE.  It had very intiguing concepts and ideas combined with a weak design and terrible execution.

I got that idea from a number of posts of yours where you assumed that a "Sandbox" game is nothing more than just "a world to live in", where players do the same thing over and over again in monotenous simulation of real life in a game, with no excitement or fun.

Edit to add: Well, maybe I just misunderstood you. Rereading your above post, maybe I'm wrong about you. Maybe your entire points were always that you need more than just simple sandbox?

Yeah it's a shame but I think the Sandbox genre will eventual be gone, and its because of games like WoW.  Nothing against WoW since its the most successful MMO out there, but new companies developing MMOs will folllow suit.  We have seen this happening for the last 5 years after all.  From a buisness perspective it makes perfect sense to do things that work and guarantee success rather than taking the risk of making a Sandbox.

Saying all that, we may get a brave company one day that'll take that risk...pulls it off.  And we'll have a Sandbox that has 10+ mil subs.  Let's only hope anyway! =P  (Wishful thinking!)  But most players want uber gear and endgame pvp, so until that changes we're not going to see many Sandbox games.

Originally posted by illorion

Are there any in development that i am just not aware off/ didnt get the memo. Or is everything in the near future themeparkin it up

What normally happens in them .... they got pooped in.

But really people want more. DF is sandbox go play it.

There are sandbox games.

Sandbox is just not as good as themepark. GW2 is doing a open world Dynamic event and private/group themepark concept . I like it.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Torik

Where did you get a weird idea like that?

Personally I consider myself a sandbox player since I played SWG, EVE and A Tale in the Desert.  However, there seems to be a group of people on these forums who call themselves 'sandbox players' that seem to think that there is some conspiracy against sandbox games and are unwilling to consider that the old sandbox games they revere had some major flaws that made them uplayable to a lot of other people who would consider themselves 'sandbox players'. 

SWG had a neat housing system, a player city system with great potential, a complex crafting system with a really lousy UI, a mediocre combat system with obvious flaws and a pointlessly grindy and limited leveling/skill system.  These things are the reason why I really got into the game for about two months and then quit it way before any CU or NGE.  It had very intiguing concepts and ideas combined with a weak design and terrible execution.

I got that idea from a number of posts of yours where you assumed that a "Sandbox" game is nothing more than just "a world to live in", where players do the same thing over and over again in monotenous simulation of real life in a game, with no excitement or fun.

Edit to add: Well, maybe I just misunderstood you. Rereading your above post, maybe I'm wrong about you. Maybe your entire points were always that you need more than just simple sandbox?

I do not always phrase my statements in ways that convey my ideas easily.  Plus I have a tendency to inject too much sarcasm into my posts.  I will also shoot down a specific implementation of an idea while loving the idea itself in theory.

So, I am a big fan of the 'idea of sandbox' but a big critic of its implementation in games.  I believe that sandbox games need a 'purpose' to drive them and without it they just become 'a world to live in'.   I acknowledge that many players will find their own purpose by just 'being' in the game but I am a 'builder' type so I need to keep building and improving things.  So any sandbox game that stagnates into a 'do the same thing you did yesterday' mode, will lose me as a player. 

The suckiest part of any game for me is the point where you hit the 'glass ceiling' and really cannot get better at it because the game does not accomodate that.  I quit SWG when I realized that I got my character to the best point I could manage and the only way to try something else was to completely wreck what I done so far and start from scratch.  There was only about 2-3 months worth of sandbox content in the game for me and everything else was either 'sameo-sameo' or a dead end.  There was no more 'purpose' for me in that game.

Heck, lack of a 'purpose' was the reason I first quit WoW.  I realized that I was no longer building a character but simply going through the same motions and merely accumulating better gear. 

For some people merely 'living' in a sandbox world is enough but I need to 'build' in it for it to have any purpose.

Originally posted by Cor4x

As far as I can see, sandboxes are pretty much doomed by design.

Every one I've ever seen has been a disaster because average players don't / won't understand art or design and generally ham, glam, or perv up everything they get their hands on. (Not all players, but in this case a very few bad apples can ruin the barrel for everyone.)

I mean, think about what happend with second life. Have you ever been there? I bet you won't last 5 minutes without seeing something NSFW. And, why don't you walk 5 feet more and see the pedobears attack? LOL

On the other side, do you remember UO from the old days? I used to hunt Orcs in a suburb because there were houses EVERYWHERE. I'd run through the city streets and try to find mobs.

It was silly.

Go look at all the "great" content created in CoX. LOL.

So, no big company wants to commit the resources needed to create a sandbox game. In this case they're probably right.

1. Second Life was never a game to begin with

2. City of Heroes was never ever ever a sandbox (I had about two max LVL characters so I know 4 sho)

Originally posted by Nekrataal

To me FFXI, & now to be FFXIV, are story driven PvE sandboxes. No, sandboxe doesn't have to be FFA PvP full loot you freaks!

Ok, maybe its not perfect, but its pretty close... here:

- You can do everything with one char.

- The game doesn't tell you what do & how do to it.

- Zones aren't sub divided by level range, you always have to be careful in your travel.

- More player interdependancy than most game out there.

- Meaningful housing. ( No its doesn't have to be a non instance clusterf**k)

- You can build your classe however you want it. ( with some restriction )

- I'm sure i'm forgetting some more aspect here...

- The only thing it is missing, is the ability to affect the world... Which FFXIV might have in one way or another, who knows.

Anyways, say what you will, FFA PvP full loot game ( what you call sandboxe ) are dead, no money is to be made on that type of game. I see it staying that way until real tough consequences are put in place to control criminal behavior, period.

<cough> EVE Online. Partial loot most of the time although I've been fully looted for my ships and rigs :(

And FFXI has never ever been a sandbox.

Most folks idea of a sandbox:

1. Not forced to linearly follow a path from low level to Max (for example, in EVE veterans and newbies adventure and live together in the space their corp/alliance controls. There is not an area a newbie cannot enter. Both vets and noob enjoys each other company and provides mutual benefits)

2. Can own Land and change the world. Perhaps fight for terriority or just buy it

3. No LEvels (or rather, no enforced linear path to go from early Levels to end). You can have sandbox type of Levels like EVE (aka skillpoints / skill level). You can acquire skills in a non-linear manner

4. SHould be free to attack anyone. However, its ok to spawn cops to enforce justice (aka EVE Online in secure space)

Games like City of Heroes, Final Fantasy, and such all fall far short of these basic criteria.

Originally posted by Kyleran

They don't make big money, therefore no major development house is going to touch them. Many smaller Indie houses keep trying, but as you mentioned, Earthrise, Dawntide, all the same, under-funded and very rough around the edges.

 

I concur..  A true well balance sandbox lives.. it evolves.. To keep a sandbox game from imploding or destroying itself requires a dev team to police it..  Therefore not only does it cost a lot to make, but it will require probably twice as many devs to maintain it..  It's all about the money in the mmo industry... :(

Originally posted by Emoqqboy

Short answer: Those that were actually released failed, failed, failed, failed, epic failed, failed, and then failed somemore, so less and less companies are willing to invest the budget required to risk trying to create a successful one.

*Cough*EvE*Cough*

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Torik

Where did you get a weird idea like that?

Personally I consider myself a sandbox player since I played SWG, EVE and A Tale in the Desert.  However, there seems to be a group of people on these forums who call themselves 'sandbox players' that seem to think that there is some conspiracy against sandbox games and are unwilling to consider that the old sandbox games they revere had some major flaws that made them uplayable to a lot of other people who would consider themselves 'sandbox players'. 

SWG had a neat housing system, a player city system with great potential, a complex crafting system with a really lousy UI, a mediocre combat system with obvious flaws and a pointlessly grindy and limited leveling/skill system.  These things are the reason why I really got into the game for about two months and then quit it way before any CU or NGE.  It had very intiguing concepts and ideas combined with a weak design and terrible execution.

I got that idea from a number of posts of yours where you assumed that a "Sandbox" game is nothing more than just "a world to live in", where players do the same thing over and over again in monotenous simulation of real life in a game, with no excitement or fun.

Edit to add: Well, maybe I just misunderstood you. Rereading your above post, maybe I'm wrong about you. Maybe your entire points were always that you need more than just simple sandbox?

I do not always phrase my statements in ways that convey my ideas easily.  Plus I have a tendency to inject too much sarcasm into my posts.  I will also shoot down a specific implementation of an idea while loving the idea itself in theory.

So, I am a big fan of the 'idea of sandbox' but a big critic of its implementation in games.  I believe that sandbox games need a 'purpose' to drive them and without it they just become 'a world to live in'.   I acknowledge that many players will find their own purpose by just 'being' in the game but I am a 'builder' type so I need to keep building and improving things.  So any sandbox game that stagnates into a 'do the same thing you did yesterday' mode, will lose me as a player. 

The suckiest part of any game for me is the point where you hit the 'glass ceiling' and really cannot get better at it because the game does not accomodate that.  I quit SWG when I realized that I got my character to the best point I could manage and the only way to try something else was to completely wreck what I done so far and start from scratch.  There was only about 2-3 months worth of sandbox content in the game for me and everything else was either 'sameo-sameo' or a dead end.  There was no more 'purpose' for me in that game.

Heck, lack of a 'purpose' was the reason I first quit WoW.  I realized that I was no longer building a character but simply going through the same motions and merely accumulating better gear. 

For some people merely 'living' in a sandbox world is enough but I need to 'build' in it for it to have any purpose.

I agree with that, and I think most of us do. You never want the game to go stagnant, no matter what kind of game it is. And I think that's perfectly possible in a true Sandbox game. But it does have to be different than the level grind games that are common these days. It has to be much more social by game design. It has to be much less dedicated to levelling up and uber gear per levels, and replaced with what a Sandbox "world" can offer. That doesn't mean that gear and getting things shouldn't be very interesting and enticing. It just means that it needs to be brought back "down to earth" so that the social aspects and world building aspects for players can work, all together and in "one world" (as opposed to zoned content).

Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by Emoqqboy

Short answer: Those that were actually released failed, failed, failed, failed, epic failed, failed, and then failed somemore, so less and less companies are willing to invest the budget required to risk trying to create a successful one.

*Cough*EvE*Cough*

 EVE is a piece of crap relying on RMT & forced multi account.

Thanks, but no thanks