Originally posted by Home15

Quests are shallow, you collect them from one guy, and hand them over to a big giant crystal, how entertaining.

If quest where given by NPC's in town of difrent needs I might care doing them, like a fisherman in need of wood for his boat or something.

Now its just one dude on a counter, collect some grind quest repeat add nausium.

It fucking blows.

Do yourself a favour and read the open Beta Guide.

Have you not noticed the text of some NPC - like they DO want you to do something - but guess what its BETA.

Also alot of these posters seem to forget that the game will come with a thing called a "manual" . I ask you where is the In-game tutorial for all the FF console games????

I, too, had really high hopes for this game.. I've been following it for a while, finally got into the beta when OB came around. The game looks and feels like it has potential, but I just see too many problems at the moment. SE is notorious for ignoring their customers, they feel as though they know what's best for their game.. Now, I believe they have to draw the line at some things, but one of the biggest killing features for me was when I found out about the 48 hour guild leve restriction and the exp cap per week.

About the exp penalty, I've yet to figure out how it works exactly, I've read some places that say it's pretty much you start the week with rested exp, then by hour 15, you're down to normal exp.. Most, however, seem to be saying it's you have 8 hours of normal exp, then 7 hours of gradually reducing exp down to 0% which means regardless of efforts, you will be unable to advance at all.

The latter is what I believe SE is doing and that, coupled with the leve restrictions, is really what did it in for me. If i'm going to be paying close to $15 a month, I expect to get entertainment that I paid for. If I enjoy playing my conjurer and feel as though I could party on it more than 30 hours in 1 week, then that should be a viable option. I understand SE wants us to switch classes because the abilities might be useful, but honestly, for the beginning of the game, I want to pick one class, play that, and then offer info about the class and recieve info about the other classes. After finding out which abilities seem tempting, maybe I'll spend 30 hours or so the next week playing Thaumaturge to get said abilities.

This is what I expect out of every game, the ability to play to my hearts content. I don't need SE trying to act like my mommy and telling me that I've been levelling a specific character for too long, I'm grown up and I can decide what my limitation are. After all, I'm paying them, it's not the other way around.

Another problem I've just recently seen was that the DoM classes are levelling at about half the speed as the DoM classes while in a party. They are recieving less SP towards their class level because they can't perform enough actions. This, right here, could pose another problem. DoW classes are going to outlevel DoM classes and the top DoW classes are going to wind up stuck soloing because no healers are within their level range. This, imho, is just poor design. In every other mmo, whilst in a group, everyone advances at practically the same speed, save rested exp or something of those sorts.

I really think SE favors melee classes after seeing what happened to all mages in FFXI. With their new MP management system, I believe they solved the problem of resting mp for mages, but for SP to be determined upon how much damage you do, how many actions you perform, etc, the stronger classes are going to advance faster than the weaker classes.

I really did have high hopes for this game, but other than the graphics and music, the game has nothing really new to offer. The menu system, I think, is worse than it's predeccors. The chat box is much more basic than it's predecessor. Hell, everything just seems like it's worse off than FFXI at this point in time.

Before casting final judgement upon this game, I am going to wait a few weeks after launch to see if things have cleared up, how things are after launch day, and then make my final decision on whether to purchase the game or not. Like I said in the beginning, I believe it has potential to be a great game, but right now, it just feels like it's lacking.

10-12 years ago when Final Fantasy was cranking out their games we all loved them but its a new milennium now, games and UI functions have been improved and there is no need for anyone to have to play under these conditions.  Final Fantasy XIV will prove that Square Enix is an aging company that is stuck in their old school ways.  They will go the way of Joe Piscopo and Dice Clay.

Originally posted by rav3n2

arghh mate it has nothing to do with bots, thottbot is just an information DB that was created for WoW, its just a place where you can find all sorts of info pretty much every MMO has a website where you can go to find stuff out FF wont be any different, no one will read quest texts and barely anyone even likes them, I believe I saw an interview some time ago where they talked about how long the average MMO gamer spends reading quest text and it was around 3-5 seconds, games should invest in chats, voice acting and events where you see the story unfold instead of having to read some static text about how the NPC is so sad and crying while he is standing there like a statue.

First you should calm down mate, secondly i know what is thobot you dont have to explain it. The facts is i dont care if people create website with all info about quest or if they create third party plug in like quest helper since i will not use them. In a single player game their is always trainers or cheats but that doesnt matter i dont use them.

Now the quest story in FFXIV for what i have seen so far you have to read to know where to go there is no marker and you have cut scene too. That what i like about this game. Now why we talk about that? because i was answering to someone what is the first thing i like about this game so maibe you use website to get info and you dont read the story but i do so what is so hard to understand about the way i like to play??

The only things who has marker on the map are guildleves who has not much to do with the story.

Originally posted by Ozivois

10-12 years ago when Final Fantasy was cranking out their games we all loved them but its a new milennium now, games and UI functions have been improved and there is no need for anyone to have to play under these conditions.  Final Fantasy XIV will prove that Square Enix is an aging company that is stuck in their old school ways.  They will go the way of Joe Piscopo and Dice Clay.

Maibe the game will fail but i dont think so. A lots of people has said the saem for FFXI and still do but guess what the games is still there.

---

Originally posted by Chickenfries
Add a patcher that takes 4 days to download the client and patches. I know," well why don't you just torrent it?" Yes you can, but  you shouldn't HAVE too.

---

This just can't stay this way after launch. Anyone that can't get P2P connections (like myself) can't download the patches. I'm lucky there are people at FFXIVcore that upload the patches right now.

Isnt the patcher using Akamai to download files ? (or maybe its another software that installed the interface in the control panel of my computer). If thats the case, its possible that SE is only using their servicies in a limited way during the beta.

Akamai is a commercial distributed cache/proxy network all over the world. Many big websites are using it since long time and it can also be used to distribute files and other type of data. When you request some files, they are served by the nearest caching server from you (its done transparently). But its pretty expensive to use so maybe they have a limited access during the OP. (no real reasons why the patcher would take soo long when it use torrent and its pretty fast using a normal torrent client)

Originally posted by Ashlinde

Originally posted by grapevine

Originally posted by udinthrik

Originally posted by Ozivois

Despite the criticisms about Vanguard and AoC when they came out both of them had incredibly satisfying PvE play throughout the player's advancement and it was really their endgame or pvp imbalance issues that hurt their population.  FF XIV, however, seems lacking from level one.  I think that's the cause of the immediate plunge.  And this game is not in beta form as we all know that this experience is 99% of what we will see our first 10-20 levels at launch.

the cause of the immediate plunge is obviously due to the keyboar/mouse issues and people not willing to use a controller.

 

I admit If i didnt have a gamepad to play with, I would have quit after those first 20 minutes of fumbling with my keyboard and mouse. Luckily I decided to try it with a gamepad before I quit. The game was in no doubt made for a gamepad.

 

I think you'll find its for many more reasons than just that.

i dont think you will. people are quitting just because they dont think they should have to use a gamepad for a PC game...... well, racing games on the PC are made to be used with racing wheels, and if you dont use them you get less of an experience..... same with flight sims, no joystick? well you get crappy controls then....

for some reason people dont consider this with FF14. they think "ITS AN MMO IT SHOULD WORK WITH KB/MOUSE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE."

guess what people, use a gamepad. all of your problems will be solved....

 A required gamepad would be a deal breaker for me.  I don't care if the game was so good it overshadowed the second coming of christ.  I would, under no circumstance, play an MMO that required you to use a game pad.

Its literally like joining up to participate in a marathon, and then having a 20 lb lead ball attached to one leg.  What's the point?  Yeah, you could still technically run the marathon, but its going to be a huge PITA the entire journey.

Not only that, PC gamers are not CONSOLE gamers.  We gravitated towards PC's for a reason, the flexibility of a mouse/keyboard was a large portion of it.

And before you accuse me of being some elitist prick who is unwilling to try it.  I have.  I played lots of White Knight Chronicles, and ultimately i quit playing online because i got sick of having to put the controller down to grab the keyboard to type out a message and then  grab the pad again.  And before you pull the "you should just use voice chat", the VC in that game is atrocious.  The quality of the mics most people have is already bargain basement crap, not to mention it has a horrible, low bitrate codec.  Its almost impossible to discern unless you disable all other sounds.

---

Originally posted by narasinha
Isnt the patcher using Akamai to download files ? (or maybe its another software that installed the interface in the control panel of my computer). If thats the case, its possible that SE is only using their servicies in a limited way during the beta.
Akamai is a commercial distributed cache/proxy network all over the world. Many big websites are using it since long time and it can also be used to distribute files and other type of data. When you request some files, they are served by the nearest caching server from you (its done transparently). But its pretty expensive to use so maybe they have a limited access during the OP. (no real reasons why the patcher would take soo long when it use torrent and its pretty fast using a normal torrent client)

---

The download portion of the patcher is just a mini torrent client that is configured to only work with SE's tracker (http://track01.ffxiv.com:54997//announce). SE's tracker seems to only accepts connections from the FFXIV patcher. uTorrent still gets connections anyway because of DHT.

People that have P2P blocked (like me) normally have use to proxies and encryption to use torrents, which is fine, because once we get peer info from the tracker we're good. However, we can't use DHT, so no tracker means no connections.

So no utorrent DHT connections, and no patcher tracker connections, means no patch for me.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Ashlinde

Originally posted by grapevine

Originally posted by udinthrik

Originally posted by Ozivois

Despite the criticisms about Vanguard and AoC when they came out both of them had incredibly satisfying PvE play throughout the player's advancement and it was really their endgame or pvp imbalance issues that hurt their population.  FF XIV, however, seems lacking from level one.  I think that's the cause of the immediate plunge.  And this game is not in beta form as we all know that this experience is 99% of what we will see our first 10-20 levels at launch.

the cause of the immediate plunge is obviously due to the keyboar/mouse issues and people not willing to use a controller.

 

I admit If i didnt have a gamepad to play with, I would have quit after those first 20 minutes of fumbling with my keyboard and mouse. Luckily I decided to try it with a gamepad before I quit. The game was in no doubt made for a gamepad.

 

I think you'll find its for many more reasons than just that.

i dont think you will. people are quitting just because they dont think they should have to use a gamepad for a PC game...... well, racing games on the PC are made to be used with racing wheels, and if you dont use them you get less of an experience..... same with flight sims, no joystick? well you get crappy controls then....

for some reason people dont consider this with FF14. they think "ITS AN MMO IT SHOULD WORK WITH KB/MOUSE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE."

guess what people, use a gamepad. all of your problems will be solved....

 A required gamepad would be a deal breaker for me.  I don't care if the game was so good it overshadowed the second coming of christ.  I would, under no circumstance, play an MMO that required you to use a game pad.

Its literally like joining up to participate in a marathon, and then having a 20 lb lead ball attached to one leg.  What's the point?  Yeah, you could still technically run the marathon, but its going to be a huge PITA the entire journey.

Lmao - that's a terribly weak analogy.  The gamepad arguably makes it easier to play the game, a ball and chain most certainly makes it harder to run a marathon.  I understand that it can be annoying to switch between gamepad and keyboard, but it's certainly not like your analogy.

Not only that, PC gamers are not CONSOLE gamers.  We gravitated towards PC's for a reason, the flexibility of a mouse/keyboard was a large portion of it.

I wouldn't try to speak for others.  I play console and pc games equally - they aren't mutually exclusive in any way.  Also, I'd say the switch of control types is a relatively small factor compared to say, what types of games are available for pc and console.

And before you accuse me of being some elitist prick who is unwilling to try it.  I have.  I played lots of White Knight Chronicles, and ultimately i quit playing online because i got sick of having to put the controller down to grab the keyboard to type out a message and then  grab the pad again.  And before you pull the "you should just use voice chat", the VC in that game is atrocious.  The quality of the mics most people have is already bargain basement crap, not to mention it has a horrible, low bitrate codec.  Its almost impossible to discern unless you disable all other sounds.

I've played many online games over third party programs like Ventrilo and experienced very few problems.  Someone occasionally has a bad mic, but it either gets fixed or people mute them lol.  I still do plenty of typing of course, but I'd never not play a game just because I had to switch between keyboard and gamepad (they have integrated keyboard/gamepad combo peripherals too if you really wanted, ya know).  It's your perogative, of course.

Btw, there is no pc-made MMORPG in existence that "requires" a gamepad, and FFXIV is no exception to that rule.  The gamepad just makes it less awkward feeling.

I was one of those hyped (and later disappointed) by FFXIV open beta.

I was following the game news, forums, etc. I've been in many MMO alpha and beta tests, so I know when things are "it's ok, it's beta" and "this sucks now and will suck later".

My comments:

 - Mouse lag:  The client already has this fixed but disabled, google for it and you'll find a program that turns it on, but you'll have to copy the new version after each patch.  This is the single most important glaring failure of the game right now.

 - Leves: I'm ok with the limit of 8, but not being able to retry/change the ones you fail must be changed. Because of crashes, or my suckage at using the UI, I now have 5 out of those 8 disabled (finished the other 3), have to wait 2 days to try them again. Until then, it's back to 2000's EQ1 kill 10000 rats.

 - Chat: What the hell is that limit on messages, like 40 characters???

 - Targetting SUCKS! (specially considering I'm playing mainly a caster. I have to select a mob, click on a spell, select if I want it Area of Effect or not... with the mouse lag, very easy to misclick... by the time I actually do it, the mob most probably moved away, goto 10)

 - I like the slow combat, but many people hate it

 - Crafting seems good enough, but it does need better explanations, and having a list of known recipes is not a feature nowadays, it's a must.

 - Exp limitations. I don't have a problem since I don't play 8 hours/day every day, but it irks some players.

 - Menu based: Some simple things require like 5 clicks to accomplish. This is aggravated by point #1, the slow laggy mouse.

 - 1 Character does everything: I don't like this at all. I like characters to be something, a mage, a fighter, a cleric, etc.  When playing this, I don't feel different than anyone else. It's like everybody is playing the same character after a while.

I was going to preorder the collector's edition of the game. Now? not even sure I'll even buy it.

Originally posted by Brambey

Bullshit, Udinthrik.

While there is almost always a segment of the population that is somewhat disappointed, if you were around for WoW's open beta and stress test phases, you'd know this is not always the reaction.  WoW's hype went through the roof during open beta and the stress tests and the feedback on this site was almost exclusively good.  

 

The difference, is that WoW was a good, well-made game.  No, I'm not a WoW fanboi, and no I haven't played in years.  BUT, at the time it was a great game and absolutely blew the competition (FFXI, anyone?) out of the water.  FFXIV would have been a good MMO 5 years ago.  Today, it's another mediocre game that will attract a niche audience and be little more than a blip on the MMORPG radar screen.

niche games are the ones i look for so i'm happy with it. apealling to tons of people leave people like me gameless because games like wow,aoc,lotro and the likes are not my cup o tea but this game I'm loving so I'm glad they didn't make a game that majority of mmo players want to play or i would still be waiting for a game so to each his own.

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Ashlinde

Originally posted by grapevine

Originally posted by udinthrik

Originally posted by Ozivois

Despite the criticisms about Vanguard and AoC when they came out both of them had incredibly satisfying PvE play throughout the player's advancement and it was really their endgame or pvp imbalance issues that hurt their population.  FF XIV, however, seems lacking from level one.  I think that's the cause of the immediate plunge.  And this game is not in beta form as we all know that this experience is 99% of what we will see our first 10-20 levels at launch.

the cause of the immediate plunge is obviously due to the keyboar/mouse issues and people not willing to use a controller.

 

I admit If i didnt have a gamepad to play with, I would have quit after those first 20 minutes of fumbling with my keyboard and mouse. Luckily I decided to try it with a gamepad before I quit. The game was in no doubt made for a gamepad.

 

I think you'll find its for many more reasons than just that.

i dont think you will. people are quitting just because they dont think they should have to use a gamepad for a PC game...... well, racing games on the PC are made to be used with racing wheels, and if you dont use them you get less of an experience..... same with flight sims, no joystick? well you get crappy controls then....

for some reason people dont consider this with FF14. they think "ITS AN MMO IT SHOULD WORK WITH KB/MOUSE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE."

guess what people, use a gamepad. all of your problems will be solved....

 A required gamepad would be a deal breaker for me.  I don't care if the game was so good it overshadowed the second coming of christ.  I would, under no circumstance, play an MMO that required you to use a game pad.

Its literally like joining up to participate in a marathon, and then having a 20 lb lead ball attached to one leg.  What's the point?  Yeah, you could still technically run the marathon, but its going to be a huge PITA the entire journey.

Lmao - that's a terribly weak analogy.  The gamepad arguably makes it easier to play the game, a ball and chain most certainly makes it harder to run a marathon.  I understand that it can be annoying to switch between gamepad and keyboard, but it's certainly not like your analogy.

Not only that, PC gamers are not CONSOLE gamers.  We gravitated towards PC's for a reason, the flexibility of a mouse/keyboard was a large portion of it.

I wouldn't try to speak for others.  I play console and pc games equally - they aren't mutually exclusive in any way.  Also, I'd say the switch of control types is a relatively small factor compared to say, what types of games are available for pc and console.

And before you accuse me of being some elitist prick who is unwilling to try it.  I have.  I played lots of White Knight Chronicles, and ultimately i quit playing online because i got sick of having to put the controller down to grab the keyboard to type out a message and then  grab the pad again.  And before you pull the "you should just use voice chat", the VC in that game is atrocious.  The quality of the mics most people have is already bargain basement crap, not to mention it has a horrible, low bitrate codec.  Its almost impossible to discern unless you disable all other sounds.

I've played many online games over third party programs like Ventrilo and experienced very few problems.  Someone occasionally has a bad mic, but it either gets fixed or people mute them lol.  I still do plenty of typing of course, but I'd never not play a game just because I had to switch between keyboard and gamepad (they have integrated keyboard/gamepad combo peripherals too if you really wanted, ya know).  It's your perogative, of course.

Btw, there is no pc-made MMORPG in existence that "requires" a gamepad, and FFXIV is no exception to that rule.  The gamepad just makes it less awkward feeling.

 On your first point, it may be a weak analogy, but from what i've read the only reason the gamepad arguably makes the experience better is because the game is designed around it, and as a result they havent properly fleshed out the keyboard/mouse side of things to make it as playable as it should be.  This is something PC gamers have dealt with for a long time with crappy PC ports of console games.  Smart developers realize that this is a sale killer for the PC port and spend the proper amount of time fleshing out the PC side of things to ensure they dont hose their sales on the PC side.

On your second note.  I can safely speak for people who are strictly PC gamers.  Now, nowhere in that post does it say or imply that i am speaking for all gamers, i only implied im speaking for people who are stricly pc gamers.  Now, i am primarily a PC gamer, but i do on occasion play consoles, and will readily admit that a controller is an advantage for certain types of games.  Fighting games for example, racing games, platform games.  Some guys are unplayyable on a controller, RTS games like starcraft or Age of Empires, for example would be unplayable on a controller.  FPS games, though doable, are horrid on a controller.  MMORPG's by nature of their complexity and need for social communication are simply better suited to a mouse and keyboard.

On your third point, i as well have used ventrilo and teamspeak, and both are INFINITELY better than the one used in WKC.  The other advantage is because PC's are designed not to be proprietary, you have dozens of mic options, so while you get the occasional bad mic, as you said, generally the mic quality is better.  Also, the bandwidth of the codecs tends to be higher.

Consoles on the other hand are very limited, you generally can choose from the Sony / MS branded mic, or at best, logitech and madkatz, for other options.  Invariably the mics are designed not with sound quality in mind but with cheapness and "cool looks". As for FFXIV rewuiring a gamepad, i only was posting off what i read in here, there were a half dozen posts that said it was required.

Now, reading further i realize the issue is that the mouse/keyboard side of things is so bad that it might as well be required to have a game pad.

Anyways, to touch on one last point you made, i think you underestimate the core PC gamer and how important the mouse and keyboard combo is.  For the person who is 80% or better a PC gamer, they wouldnt give up their mouse and keyboard for anything.

My thoughts exactly  The game is very disappointing to me  se doesn't give a crap about us there going to do it the way they want  too and that's it. the whole thing about going to speak to a person then going to a crystal to start  continuing your quest? at least for me I did not like this idea at all. I really miss the old days of  ff back when square Enix was just squaresoft .

Originally posted by Windlion

My thoughts exactly  The game is very disappointing to me  se doesn't give a crap about us there going to do it the way they want  too and that's it. the whole thing about going to speak to a person then going to a crystal to start  continuing your quest? at least for me I did not like this idea at all. I really miss the old days of  ff back when square Enix was just squaresoft .

No offense. Why should SE care about you? This isn't personal. You and SE aren't dating or related.

It's stricty business. They make a product. You can either choose to buy it or not to.

Originally posted by Ozivois

10-12 years ago when Final Fantasy was cranking out their games we all loved them but its a new milennium now, games and UI functions have been improved and there is no need for anyone to have to play under these conditions.  Final Fantasy XIV will prove that Square Enix is an aging company that is stuck in their old school ways.  They will go the way of Joe Piscopo and Dice Clay.

well back when square enix was just plain old squaresoft they were cranking these out too by the way, 23 years and now 14 games, dozens of offshoots and a few final fantasy movies later they still have a pretty devoted audiance. my point is this, i played XI, played wow, and now i wish i never left. i heard this was coming out when  bought XIII and decided what the hell why not wait. and after all the "hype" all the negative stuff i've heard and not even being privy to a beta open or otherwise i'll say this. i'm buying the game, period. like i just said i have been playing wow for the past 3 years, minus the last 7 or 8 months becuase frankly i just got so fed up with it, and frankly i thirst for actual (no offence) thinking in my mmo, sorry but wow just got so damned easy i could be half asleep and do most of the things i wanted, i remember having to walk around in final fantasy, having to read and read carefully, to put in work just to get that blasted chocobo...and feeing a small sense of acomplishment when i did things.....i just think i'm outgrowing the "what's the best class?" and just wanting to do what i enjoy without having to hear the same questions or bad kiddie jokes in a trade chat. and as far as games and UI functions changing and nobody needing to play like whatever you think is wrong....play the last 3 madden games, or medal of honor games, or the last  halo games and tell me what changed so much on any.  if "old school" means not having to adjust to keep the masses happy over the loyal, than i guess i'm old school. change to keep a customer base interested is one thing, but doing it just to cater to "the microwave generation of instant gratification" is not even being loyal to themselves or what they've done for years and years.

Guild Wars 2 is where it's at WoOOOT! In may not be a revolution but it is taking things to the next level bayba!

Originally posted by natuxatu

Guild Wars 2 is where it's at WoOOOT! In may not be a revolution but it is taking things to the next level bayba!

Have you played Guild Wars 2 yet? Anyone can make movies look good, and talk all day about their game. I'm sure just as many people will be upset with any new game that comes out as are upset with FFXiV. I think many gamers are more interested in forum stalking the newest games than actually playing MMORPGs these days.

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by natuxatu

Guild Wars 2 is where it's at WoOOOT! In may not be a revolution but it is taking things to the next level bayba!

Have you played Guild Wars 2 yet? Anyone can make movies look good, and talk all day about their game. I'm sure just as many people will be upset with any new game that comes out as are upset with FFXiV. I think many gamers are more interested in forum stalking the newest games than actually playing MMORPGs these days.

 guildwars2guru.com has so much info on the game your head would expload. I don't need to play it to know it'll be just what I've been asking for. It's not their vidoes, it's not their DEMOS of actual gameplay, it's the way ArenaNet engages it's community and lets them know what their plans are. Why do I believe them you ask? Because they have never let me down.

I'm a Guild Wars 2 fanboi and proud of it :p ArenaNet has earned every fan it has.

As for people hating Guild Wars 2.. perhaps, but GW2 is appealing to way more people than FFXIV ever was and the people it did appeal to are being dissapointed. Not all of course, but a lot... I still might play FFXIV I haven't decided.

Regardless... my first post was only half serious ^^

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by natuxatu

Guild Wars 2 is where it's at WoOOOT! In may not be a revolution but it is taking things to the next level bayba!

Have you played Guild Wars 2 yet? Anyone can make movies look good, and talk all day about their game. I'm sure just as many people will be upset with any new game that comes out as are upset with FFXiV. I think many gamers are more interested in forum stalking the newest games than actually playing MMORPGs these days.

*Sits down with a bowl of popcorn. Awaiting the "Guild Wars 2 SUCKS" posts for when the game launches*

Forum PvP is a great MMORPG. You can hype the game, post positive or negative feedback, troll, etc and watch the reaction.

In all seriousness, people never learn, and this is a good exemple, they hype a game, feel let down and rage, find another game, hype it up, etc. Someone else summed this up much better than I did. It's a bit sad how people don't learn from their mistakes.