Originally posted by Crynswind

The game is amazing,i just hope they add in game recipes.

No recipes in game,and not being able to alt tab is just dumb.

I didn't mention the alt-tab glitch because, for whatever reason, it seems to alt-tab just fine for me.  Probably because I play in windowed mode, but I'm not sure - could just be my drivers are more compatible or something.  Ctrl-Alt-Del did kill it, however - I guess it  doesn't like to have its video suspended for whatever reason. 

The reason why I Ctrl-Alt-Del was to get the task manager open and check out the core traffic.  Upon booting it up again, I discovered it does, in fact, run on multple cores.  Part of the reason I'm doing so well might be because I'm running on a Q6600, 4 cores @ 2.4 ghz, all four get utilized by FFXIV, and they tend to sit at the 66% point or greater most of the time, upwards of almost 90% other times.  Pretty scary this software uses nearly 10 ghz sometimes!

Originally posted by geldonyetich

 

In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is a game best appreciated by gaming connoisseurs: those who have a taste for fine quality in the details of their games, to the point where they're willing to overlook the kinds of flaws remaining as trivial in comparison to what is being delivered.

People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV.  However, you're certainly welcome to learn.

.

.

I know I am coming off as a bit arrogant here, but I don't mean to talk down to anyone.   It's just really hard to express the sentiment I'm trying to get at without sounding elitist: it's a legitimiate observation that there will be players who have come to recognize certain instrinsic qualities in Final Fantasy XIV which make complaints such as the GUI seem relatively trivial in comparison. 

 

 

lol...I don't think you are coming off any differently than you actually are.  This is the game you like...and if other people don't like (even if they have very good reasons), they must be morons.

You took the time to cherry-pick the silly arguments others on the boards have made, while completely ignoring posts that had very legitimate concerns and complaints.  This is known as a straw man argument (look it up under logical fallacies).

I have no fight in this battle (tried it during alpha, but it didn't have anything that resonated well with me despite a number of hours working with it)...I don't hate the game, but I've played better (my opinion).  I'm also sure it will do well.  However, I do find it rather annoying to have somebody post something with a very high-handed attitude...then try claiming they are somehow actually being humble.

You want to prove your mettle?  Take on the real concerns and complaints...then you'll warrant your arrogance... 

Originally posted by geldonyetich

Originally posted by Crynswind

The game is amazing,i just hope they add in game recipes.

No recipes in game,and not being able to alt tab is just dumb.

I didn't mention the alt-tab glitch because, for whatever reason, it seems to alt-tab just fine for me.  Probably because I play in windowed mode, but I'm not sure - could just be my drivers are more compatible or something.  Ctrl-Alt-Del did kill it, however - I guess it  doesn't like to have its video suspended for whatever reason. 

The reason why I Ctrl-Alt-Del was to get the task manager open and check out the core traffic.  Upon booting it up again, I discovered it does, in fact, run on multple cores.  Part of the reason I'm doing so well might be because I'm running on a Q6600, 4 cores @ 2.4 ghz, all four get utilized by FFXIV, and they tend to sit at the 66% point or greater most of the time, upwards of almost 90% other times.  Pretty scary this software uses nearly 10 ghz sometimes!

Alt tab doesn't work in fullscreen for some reason.

That's really interesting that it is able to use 4 cores.  This would be the first game I've heard of that can do that.

"quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use"

Really? Part of quality game play is ease-of-use. When I say ease-of-use, I don't mean easy gameplay. I mean the interface to the gameworld . It should be intuitive, easy to use, and responsive. The gateway to your game shouldn't be a hurdle your players have to struggle with in order to enjoy the game.

Its also missing the quality gameplay.  Its below average, with some nice cut scenes.  It looking pretty, does not make it a quality product.

I get the impression he's just gone elitist to try and make FF XIV something its not.

If you have trouble with the game play use a xbox 360 controller. I loved every second of my beta experience. This game is going to rock when it releases. I am just glad open beta is getting rid of all the whiners so we don't to listen to all of you when it finally comes out. 

Originally posted by knaple

If you have trouble with the game play use a xbox 360 controller. I loved every second of my beta experience. This game is going to rock when it releases. I am just glad open beta is getting rid of all the whiners so we don't to listen to all of you when it finally comes out. 

So in order to play the game, I not only have to pay for the game itself, but another $50 for a controller? PC games shouldn't require a controller, I have an expensive gaming mouse and gaming keyboard for a reason.

Originally posted by unbound55

You want to prove your mettle?  Take on the real concerns and complaints...then you'll warrant your arrogance... 

Sure thing.  Just as soon as I see some that I didn't already mention one I didn't already take into account.

Besides, pro tip: it's not "proving your mettle" to address anything expressed by some spaz on an Internet forum.  You can extend that same principle to me if you want, but as far as I'm concerned nit picking is too easy for me to care you're able to do it.

I'm finding it hard to believe avid gamers don't have a USB controller for their PC's or that it's only use would be this for game.

Originally posted by MAnalog

I'm finding it hard to believe avid gamers don't have a USB controller for their PC's or that it's only use would be this for game.

I do have a USB controller (Saitek P880) which works well, but I don't use it much.  I find WASD for movement and IJKL for mouselook, home to open menu, cursors/enter/esc for menu navigation to be pretty comfortable.  Of course, your milage may vary - perhaps having such keyboard skills is a part of the skill set of an avid gamer.

Originally posted by geldonyetich

 

The grind has definite breadth...

This game deliberately does not endeavor to make itself easy...

People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV.

You say the game is an unintuitive grind (which I completely agree with), yet you call it "quality". There are no quality games that frustrate you or waste large amounts of your time.

What you're really trying to say here is that "FFXIV is for people that enjoy slow-paced, simplistic MMORPG's and don't mind repetition or uneventful exploration".

Furthermore, FFXIV (the PC version anyway) has issues that a high-end PC will not fix. Console ports suck, that's just how it is. "Ease of use" is not an "easy button", it's something that makes the game more enjoyable. Someone with "ridiculous amounts of gaming experience" should know that.

---

Originally posted by geldonyetich

---

Originally posted by MAnalog

I'm finding it hard to believe avid gamers don't have a USB controller for their PC's or that it's only use would be this for game.

---

I do have a USB controller (Saitek P880) which works well, but I don't use it much.  I find WASD for movement and IJKL for mouselook, home to open menu, cursors/enter/esc for menu navigation to be pretty comfortable.  Of course, your milage may vary - perhaps having such keyboard skills is a part of the skill set of an avid gamer.

---

Sorry geld, that post was directed at the general "concern" of others using that argument. Not directly at you :)

To make it simple,

The game is nothing more than a console port as they did with their first venture in MMOs. Off the back, they implemented gamepad usage from the get go. The game reeks of "bad port" and plays like such. I tried to overlook the small thing such as "No Jumping" shouldn't bother me, but it does.

I played for about an hour. The game flatout does not impress beyond graphics. This should do well on what ever console they implement it on, but, Square, once again, shows that they do not know how to seperate the differences between Console and PC gaming.

Good game ideas, but, poor implementation.

Originally posted by neosapience

You say the game is an unintuitive grind (which I completely agree with), yet you call it "quality". There are no quality games that frustrate you or waste large amounts of your time.

On the contrary, just because it's unintuitive and possesses the qualities of a grind does not completely dissolve the possiblity that it is a quality game in spite of these qualities.

Originally posted by neosapience

What you're really trying to say here is that "FFXIV is for people that enjoy slow-paced, simplistic MMORPG's and don't mind repetition or uneventful exploration".

Your exaggeration does little justice to yourself or Final Fantasy XIV  What you've written here is a bit like saying, 'well, I guess you can enjoy bowling if you like carrying stupidly heavy weights and throwing them down boring, uneventful lanes." 

You're right on two adjectives used: Final Fantasy XIV does possess a slower pace than, say, Champions Online - not that all MMORPGs need to be viscerally fast, you know.  It also possess qualities of reptition, as just about all computer RPGs do.

However, it's actually a bit of a stretch to call the game simplistic, it actually gets pretty complicated in terms of the abilities you'll have at your disposal to mix and match after you gain a few job ranks, and kicks that complication into overdrive by the time battle regimens enter the picture.  Also, exploration is hardly unventful not only is the atmosphere excellent even on peaceful walks, but there's quite a few events: encountering hostile monsters (happens away from the starting area of course), finding places to gather resources, encountering your fellow players in need of help, and even a few things outside of the norm like impromptu monster hunts called by NPCs.

I explained this as I see it, but whether or not you can see this is why I said this is really why it's a game that suits conniseurs better.

Originally posted by neosapience

Furthermore, FFXIV (the PC version anyway) has issues that a high-end PC will not fix. Console ports suck, that's just how it is. "Ease of use" is not an "easy button", it's something that makes the game more enjoyable. Someone with "ridiculous amounts of gaming experience" should know that.

Exactly what does my having a ridiculous amount of gaming experience have to do with harboring such an easy kneejerk reaction about console games ported to PCs?  Yes, it's oftne the case that a PC version of a console developed game will receive secondary priority.  However, tell me that you can't enjoy, say, Arkham Asylum: it's not a universal. 

Furthermore, it should be fairly clear by the fact that this game is coming out on the PC first that this is not a secondary platform in the eyes of Square-Enix.  They just chose to keep the Interface this way because it follows the style of hte processessor, FFXI, and perhaps the Final Fantasy game line in general.

Originally posted by Torment1982

 

Elitists for time immemorial have pulled this stunt, I suppose its the maturing of the MMORPG or gaming industry in general that causes it now.  The first person to declaim that something is in fact misunderstood by the peons and is of exceptional quality and to do so convincingly attracts certain admirers.  Those of whom the original approves of, those most supportive of his own perspective or those who bring additional weight to his own opinion are welcomed.  Those who do not are considered pretenders or ignorant. 

 

He is of course entitled to his opinion, he is not however entitled to speak down to anyone as any kind of authority on the subject, whether he does so explicitly or not.  I don't particularly like poking trolls, and I certainly don't like having to use personal attacks, especially after the moderators have said so in the thread I am now writing to keep it civil.  Have I?  I really don't like arrogance, I'd much rather a discussion be held, but making lists and then excluding the people who don't get it as plainly inferior is arrogance.

 

Of course arrogance is almost as good an ego shield as blind faith and both are equally useless.  The only thing that matters in the end is that squenix is not getting my money this time around, whether its because I can't appreciate their game, or I simply don't think they spent enough time making it appeal to their targeted audience is irrelevant.

 

Still casually insulting self styled experts has its own reward.

Originally posted by geldonyetich

Hello, been playing electronic games for about 28 years, and dozens of MMORPGs under my belt. 

Final Fantasy XIV is pretty much in the same vein as Final Fantasy XI, brought up to date with many notable improvements, and should be appreciated by much the same audience as the players who enjoyed Final Fantasy XI.  It doesn't pretend to be anything else, it doesn't bother competing with WoW because that's the wrong audience for it.   What is delivers is very solid, with some caveats:

• It will require a relatively-up-to-date computer: World of Warcraft was designed to run on two year old computers when it was released seven years ago.  Final Fantasy XIV requires a computer that has somewhere along the lines of 20 times the computational power you'd need to run WoW comfortably.  I've got a GeForce 250 GTS, 4 GB of RAM, and a quad core processor, a fairly middle-of-the-road system by today's standards: this was enough for an adequate play experience.  Anything less, and you'll likely be suffering.   If in doubt, try the benchmark.
• The controls take some getting used to (especially for non-FFXI players):  There is some definate consolitus here, but it can be overcome readily enough.  The user will need to be able to adapt to an interface other than strictly mouse and keyboard.   WASD travel with mouselook working on holding right click works well enough, but navigating the menus via mouse clicks is ill-advised: get used to using the cursor, enter, and escape key for menu navigation (these can be rebound to other keys).  Of course, if you're using a gamepad, you'll find FFXIV is more than ready to accommodate you.   Annoyingly, there is a bit of a GUI lag as the client seems to require frequent server interaction, but imagine this will die down a bit as the servers become better at handling the load throughout the duration of the stress test.
• RTFM implied, but not well supported during beta:  I think it's a fair assumption that there will be a manual included with the game, and it will be required reading.  There's a lot of status icons that pop up which you may sorely wish you had a manual about to know what they mean, the context-sensitive help is still in Japanese in this version.  There is a wealth of help tips to be found buried in various context menus throughout the game, such as explaining what attributes do, but I've seen easier ways to presenting that information, often they can only be accessed in certain geographical locations in the game.
• This game deliberately does not endeavor to make itself easy: The mobs will put up a good fight and easily overcome the unprepared or GUI-flustered.  I've encountered local guildleves (a certain kind of quest) where I'm expected to comb entire labyrinthine cities trying to find an NPC by name alone.  The grind has definite breadth: it does not assume you loathe playing the game.  It's good that the scenery is so enjoyable to take in, as you will spend a lot of time just walking to the same place several dozen times.  These things are all different facets of the essence of difficulty in gaming, their inclusion deliberate, overcoming them being means to enjoy the game.  Even the GUI impediment is uniquely stylistically Final Fantasy, and to do otherwise differs from fan expectation.
• Crashes and disconnections happen: Fairly infrequently, perhaps to the tune of once every 2-3 hours (give or take depending on how lucky you are) but they happen.  Unfortunately, if you happen to be doing a timed Guildleve when you're kicked out of the game, you will fail it.  You'll either have the patience to deal with this or you won't, but undoubtedly the frequency of this wil decrease as the game undergoes continued refinement.

In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is a game best appreciated by gaming connoisseurs: those who have a taste for fine quality in the details of their games, to the point where they're willing to overlook the kinds of flaws remaining as trivial in comparison to what is being delivered.

People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV.  However, you're certainly welcome to learn.

OP is a troll.. even the title of the thread says so "rediculously experienced gamers' first day". shameless self promotion. not to mention the last paragraph calling people who dont like the game pretty much retarded

Originally posted by goron24

Originally posted by geldonyetich

Hello, been playing electronic games for about 28 years, and dozens of MMORPGs under my belt. 

Final Fantasy XIV is pretty much in the same vein as Final Fantasy XI, brought up to date with many notable improvements, and should be appreciated by much the same audience as the players who enjoyed Final Fantasy XI.  It doesn't pretend to be anything else, it doesn't bother competing with WoW because that's the wrong audience for it.   What is delivers is very solid, with some caveats:

• It will require a relatively-up-to-date computer: World of Warcraft was designed to run on two year old computers when it was released seven years ago.  Final Fantasy XIV requires a computer that has somewhere along the lines of 20 times the computational power you'd need to run WoW comfortably.  I've got a GeForce 250 GTS, 4 GB of RAM, and a quad core processor, a fairly middle-of-the-road system by today's standards: this was enough for an adequate play experience.  Anything less, and you'll likely be suffering.   If in doubt, try the benchmark.
• The controls take some getting used to (especially for non-FFXI players):  There is some definate consolitus here, but it can be overcome readily enough.  The user will need to be able to adapt to an interface other than strictly mouse and keyboard.   WASD travel with mouselook working on holding right click works well enough, but navigating the menus via mouse clicks is ill-advised: get used to using the cursor, enter, and escape key for menu navigation (these can be rebound to other keys).  Of course, if you're using a gamepad, you'll find FFXIV is more than ready to accommodate you.   Annoyingly, there is a bit of a GUI lag as the client seems to require frequent server interaction, but imagine this will die down a bit as the servers become better at handling the load throughout the duration of the stress test.
• RTFM implied, but not well supported during beta:  I think it's a fair assumption that there will be a manual included with the game, and it will be required reading.  There's a lot of status icons that pop up which you may sorely wish you had a manual about to know what they mean, the context-sensitive help is still in Japanese in this version.  There is a wealth of help tips to be found buried in various context menus throughout the game, such as explaining what attributes do, but I've seen easier ways to presenting that information, often they can only be accessed in certain geographical locations in the game.
• This game deliberately does not endeavor to make itself easy: The mobs will put up a good fight and easily overcome the unprepared or GUI-flustered.  I've encountered local guildleves (a certain kind of quest) where I'm expected to comb entire labyrinthine cities trying to find an NPC by name alone.  The grind has definite breadth: it does not assume you loathe playing the game.  It's good that the scenery is so enjoyable to take in, as you will spend a lot of time just walking to the same place several dozen times.  These things are all different facets of the essence of difficulty in gaming, their inclusion deliberate, overcoming them being means to enjoy the game.  Even the GUI impediment is uniquely stylistically Final Fantasy, and to do otherwise differs from fan expectation.
• Crashes and disconnections happen: Fairly infrequently, perhaps to the tune of once every 2-3 hours (give or take depending on how lucky you are) but they happen.  Unfortunately, if you happen to be doing a timed Guildleve when you're kicked out of the game, you will fail it.  You'll either have the patience to deal with this or you won't, but undoubtedly the frequency of this wil decrease as the game undergoes continued refinement.

In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is a game best appreciated by gaming connoisseurs: those who have a taste for fine quality in the details of their games, to the point where they're willing to overlook the kinds of flaws remaining as trivial in comparison to what is being delivered.

People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV.  However, you're certainly welcome to learn.

OP is a troll.. even the title of the thread says so "rediculously experienced gamers' first day". shameless self promotion. not to mention the last paragraph calling people who dont like the game pretty much retarded

He's correct and you are a fan who is unwilling to hear/accept any sort of objective criticism.

After Playing for 2 days in open beta I personally don't feel that the UI or learning curve is a serious game breaking issue to me.

I think games like WOW have spoiled us, they make this huge tutorials that teach us everything we need to know, like a father holding his daughters or sons hand and showing them around. This is a good way to attract more people, its easy and people like that.

FFXIV isnt like that and thats not because of a serious flaw, thats because its not supposed to be like that. A game like this is basically a drop you off and you learn things on your own. This is not a flaw on SE's part its to give you the feeling of being a new adventurer in a big new world .  This games main focus, unlike most mainstream mmos, is on the road to the end and not the end itself.

Bottom line is this game is by no means perfect, but most gripes and complaints ive heard were against intentional design choices to make the game more immersive for its players.

Even if you dont like the game you must respect SE for taking the game in the direction they want, whether popular or not, and not following the standards of most games.

Thats just my opinion though and I dont make any claim of it being fact.

I agree tutorials shouldn't give you everything you need to know. but there are virtually no tutorials in FFXIV and there should be some to explain a bit more than they do, or at the very least a codex of knowledge to research in the event something comes up you know nothing about

Originally posted by Torment1982

 

Elitists for time immemorial have pulled this stunt, I suppose its the maturing of the MMORPG or gaming industry in general that causes it now.  The first person to declaim that something is in fact misunderstood by the peons and is of exceptional quality and to do so convincingly attracts certain admirers.  Those of whom the original approves of, those most supportive of his own perspective or those who bring additional weight to his own opinion are welcomed.  Those who do not are considered pretenders or ignorant. 

He is of course entitled to his opinion, he is not however entitled to speak down to anyone as any kind of authority on the subject, whether he does so explicitly or not.  I don't particularly like poking trolls, and I certainly don't like having to use personal attacks, especially after the moderators have said so in the thread I am now writing to keep it civil.  Have I?  I really don't like arrogance, I'd much rather a discussion be held, but making lists and then excluding the people who don't get it as plainly inferior is arrogance.

Of course arrogance is almost as good an ego shield as blind faith and both are equally useless.  The only thing that matters in the end is that squenix is not getting my money this time around, whether its because I can't appreciate their game, or I simply don't think they spent enough time making it appeal to their targeted audience is irrelevant.

Still casually insulting self styled experts has its own reward.

This is very true. I find it hard to believe anyone who only claims to have played games for a long time with no specifics. To speak as if you can appreciate games more than a "casual" gamer is nothing but complete bunk. There are many problems with the game in question. The biggest is the quality one could have come to expect from Square Enix.

Their games were at times trying especially if you went as far as to get the Japanesse versions. Some were actually downright brutal including the first Final Fantasy. This level of difficulty was not found in this game as far as actual gameplay goes. I can see that the graphics are wonderful, absolutely jaw dropping at times. The controls were obviously meant for a controller but I didn't have to much trouble using my mouse/wasd combination. The downloader I actually utilized with no issue, but I tend to leave the bigger downloads open when I sleep.

There are other issues many have addressed including lack of documentation, firstly all should realize this is not a trial. Many people forget that in betas this sort of thing is something a beta tester should be able to figure out. You should be trying everything you can to break the client, pressing random buttons, and the like. This may be the complete version and it may not, this should be kept in mind. I am not excusing it because it is a beta but instead reminding everyone that this product is still not complete. Everyone invited to the open beta is supposed to test it so they CAN finish it.

Though I can see this as art as well, it still needs to play well and be accessible by all with the machine to run it. The wonderful vistas, the fluidity of animations (which did not remain consistant in engine cutscenes), and the voice acting were up to par with Square's past level of quality. What I really found lacking was the great battles I remember from their single player offerings which can be brought to this format easily. I applaud Square Enix for their attempt and I may give it another chance after launch but I could not force myself to continue testing this build.

I hope others have a better experience with it and that the OP continues to enjoy it. I will qualify all my statements above by saying I enjoy single players much better than an MMO and I tend to come down hard on MMOs because they have such potential for story telling but so far have not had that and that's what I expected to find in a Final Fantasy MMO.

Good luck all,

Githern