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Religion & Politics  » A letter to the fundamentalist church

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  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

9/03/10 8:28:02 PM#121
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

  deviliscious

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/07
Posts: 6929

"Adjusts ponytails and pulls the lollipop out of my mouth"

9/03/10 8:48:35 PM#122
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

 I am not saying all religions are bad, far from it. I am saying that those that stemmed from Judaism have very direct condemnation of other religions, and promote intolerance. We can;t just ignore the bad stuff and say ," but look over here at the good stuff they say" when there are other religions that do not contain the condemnation, strict rules for sex, and one path to " salvation." The religions that came from Judaism promote conflict, whereas the many of the ancient natural religions promote unity without that conflict. But Most Christians do not even realize that, because they have only the biblical view of those religions to base their conclusions from, and are taught to fear the unknown.

The bad in the old and new testament to me, must be taken with the good , and as the book says itself , to change the book is to commit blasphemy. The bible, just like the Qur'an tell you that you must follow the book or you are sinning. For me, that means I have to take it for what it is, or not take it at all, and I choose the latter. Don;t get me wrong, I think there is much to be learned about history from this book, but I do not see that as the path to Spiritual well being, at least not for me.

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

9/03/10 9:01:14 PM#123
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

 I am not saying all religions are bad, far from it. I am saying that those that stemmed from Judaism have very direct condemnation of other religions, and promote intolerance. We can;t just ignore the bad stuff and say ," but look over here at the good stuff they say" when there are other religions that do not contain the condemnation, strict rules for sex, and one path to " salvation." The religions that came from Judaism promote conflict, whereas the many of the ancient natural religions promote unity without that conflict. But Most Christians do not even realize that, because they have only the biblical view of those religions to base their conclusions from, and are taught to fear the unknown.

The bad in the old and new testament to me, must be taken with the good , and as the book says itself , to change the book is to commit blasphemy. The bible, just like the Qur'an tell you that you must follow the book or you are sinning. For me, that means I have to take it for what it is, or not take it at all, and I choose the latter. Don;t get me wrong, I think there is much to be learned about history from this book, but I do not see that as the path to Spiritual well being, at least not for me.

Those that stemmed from Judaism ALSO ended slavery, preserved the Greek notion of Democracy, combined it with the Roman notion of republic, brought us the NOTION of euality between the sexs and all men, carried the logic of aristotle forward so that, combined with the scientific method (nrought forth by muslims and later Christians).

Meanwhile Hindus were slaughtering each other for centuries. Same with shinto. EVeryone slaughers everyone, from all religions. Your ancestors and my wives were slaugherting each other foreever before  the white man showed up.

What made the abrahamic faiths look "bad" is that they are successful -- they essentially built the western world -- and it was a mixd bag indeed. What made them successful is their UNIVERSALITY -- they DO preach they are all about ALL, and thus. yeah that has brought power, and yeah, it has spilled blood,

However, one could just as easily argue it was TECNOLOGY and SCIENCE and RREASON that has actually caused the increase in blood and war. Look at that same western civ. Is it the religions? Or is it the technology we created and then well, as people will, used to conquor.

I am not saying religion isn't a component in war. but I think you have it backwards. I think you are seeing three very successful religions, and humans being evil because humans will be evil -- and they are very successful at turning religion into evil as well.

the fact is all three religions can be seen just as easily at the center of peace as war, and have been time and again. I must say that Christianity probably has the best record in history of waging peace. Better than all other faiths combined I would say.

Think about it. This is a world at war --  has been for all time -- Christianity is one of the ONLY messages of peace. Buddhism as well, but that one doesn't wage peace -- it's more internal, more  isolationistic in this area, and that has benefits and negatives. the benefit is yes, less violent but the negative is it tends to NOT advance human political liberty.

Again I just want you to think this more through, past the old...oooo religion is bad....the fact is slavery ended because of Moses.  It was practiced everywhere on earth UNTIL Christianity started ending it. The jewish story of human bondage. I could go on lol been devoting much historical study to this stuff as of late :)

  deviliscious

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/07
Posts: 6929

"Adjusts ponytails and pulls the lollipop out of my mouth"

9/03/10 9:14:25 PM#124
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

 I am not saying all religions are bad, far from it. I am saying that those that stemmed from Judaism have very direct condemnation of other religions, and promote intolerance. We can;t just ignore the bad stuff and say ," but look over here at the good stuff they say" when there are other religions that do not contain the condemnation, strict rules for sex, and one path to " salvation." The religions that came from Judaism promote conflict, whereas the many of the ancient natural religions promote unity without that conflict. But Most Christians do not even realize that, because they have only the biblical view of those religions to base their conclusions from, and are taught to fear the unknown.

The bad in the old and new testament to me, must be taken with the good , and as the book says itself , to change the book is to commit blasphemy. The bible, just like the Qur'an tell you that you must follow the book or you are sinning. For me, that means I have to take it for what it is, or not take it at all, and I choose the latter. Don;t get me wrong, I think there is much to be learned about history from this book, but I do not see that as the path to Spiritual well being, at least not for me.

Those that stemmed from Judaism ALSO ended slavery, preserved the Greek notion of Democracy, combined it with the Roman notion of republic, brought us the NOTION of euality between the sexs and all men, carried the logic of aristotle forward so that, combined with the scientific method (nrought forth by muslims and later Christians).

Meanwhile Hindus were slaughtering each other for centuries. Same with shinto. EVeryone slaughers everyone, from all religions. Your ancestors and my wives were slaugherting each other foreever before  the white man showed up.

What made the abrahamic faiths look "bad" is that they are successful -- they essentially built the western world -- and it was a mixd bag indeed. What made them successful is their UNIVERSALITY -- they DO preach they are all about ALL, and thus. yeah that has brought power, and yeah, it has spilled blood,

However, one could just as easily argue it was TECNOLOGY and SCIENCE and RREASON that has actually caused the increase in blood and war. Look at that same western civ. Is it the religions? Or is it the technology we created and then well, as people will, used to conquor.

I am not saying religion isn't a component in war. but I think you have it backwards. I think you are seeing three very successful religions, and humans being evil because humans will be evil -- and they are very successful at turning religion into evil as well.

the fact is all three religions can be seen just as easily at the center of peace as war, and have been time and again. I must say that Christianity probably has the best record in history of waging peace. Better than all other faiths combined I would say.

Think about it. This is a world at war --  has been for all time -- Christianity is one of the ONLY messages of peace. Buddhism as well, but that one doesn't wage peace -- it's more internal, more  isolationistic in this area, and that has benefits and negatives. the benefit is yes, less violent but the negative is it tends to NOT advance human political liberty.

Again I just want you to think this more through, past the old...oooo religion is bad....the fact is slavery ended because of Moses.  It was practiced everywhere on earth UNTIL Christianity started ending it. The jewish story of human bondage. I could go on lol been devoting much historical study to this stuff as of late :)

 Many native peoples and religions never had slavery to begin with, and would have no reason to end something that would have never been started in the first place.  I am not saying ALL of the Native religions were peaceful, but most of those that were against violence were easily conquered  due to the fact they did not adequately defend themselves.  Hinduism as we know it now is a combination of native religions, most of which have greatly different customs and beliefs, just as with what happened to the Natives  when the Europeans invaded the Americas, their culture and religions could not withstand the brutality of their oppressors and they were forced to adapt or perish.

WHen Columbus came  to the new world, the people ran naked and free, treated them like family and gave all of what they had to their " new brothers" only to be met with  greed, enslavement and brutality. Even the Monk that wrote about the new world was appalled at how the people were treated. I respectfully disagree that Christianity is one of the only promoting peace, as that is the history reported from those who carried out the extinction of the much more peaceful religions of this world.

I do not see that they are bad because they are " successful" I see them successful because they are forced.

If you kill or convert all that oppose you and then claim victory, you may consider that " successful", but it doesn't make it "peaceful", or justified.

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

9/03/10 9:36:33 PM#125
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

 I am not saying all religions are bad, far from it. I am saying that those that stemmed from Judaism have very direct condemnation of other religions, and promote intolerance. We can;t just ignore the bad stuff and say ," but look over here at the good stuff they say" when there are other religions that do not contain the condemnation, strict rules for sex, and one path to " salvation." The religions that came from Judaism promote conflict, whereas the many of the ancient natural religions promote unity without that conflict. But Most Christians do not even realize that, because they have only the biblical view of those religions to base their conclusions from, and are taught to fear the unknown.

The bad in the old and new testament to me, must be taken with the good , and as the book says itself , to change the book is to commit blasphemy. The bible, just like the Qur'an tell you that you must follow the book or you are sinning. For me, that means I have to take it for what it is, or not take it at all, and I choose the latter. Don;t get me wrong, I think there is much to be learned about history from this book, but I do not see that as the path to Spiritual well being, at least not for me.

Those that stemmed from Judaism ALSO ended slavery, preserved the Greek notion of Democracy, combined it with the Roman notion of republic, brought us the NOTION of euality between the sexs and all men, carried the logic of aristotle forward so that, combined with the scientific method (nrought forth by muslims and later Christians).

Meanwhile Hindus were slaughtering each other for centuries. Same with shinto. EVeryone slaughers everyone, from all religions. Your ancestors and my wives were slaugherting each other foreever before  the white man showed up.

What made the abrahamic faiths look "bad" is that they are successful -- they essentially built the western world -- and it was a mixd bag indeed. What made them successful is their UNIVERSALITY -- they DO preach they are all about ALL, and thus. yeah that has brought power, and yeah, it has spilled blood,

However, one could just as easily argue it was TECNOLOGY and SCIENCE and RREASON that has actually caused the increase in blood and war. Look at that same western civ. Is it the religions? Or is it the technology we created and then well, as people will, used to conquor.

I am not saying religion isn't a component in war. but I think you have it backwards. I think you are seeing three very successful religions, and humans being evil because humans will be evil -- and they are very successful at turning religion into evil as well.

the fact is all three religions can be seen just as easily at the center of peace as war, and have been time and again. I must say that Christianity probably has the best record in history of waging peace. Better than all other faiths combined I would say.

Think about it. This is a world at war --  has been for all time -- Christianity is one of the ONLY messages of peace. Buddhism as well, but that one doesn't wage peace -- it's more internal, more  isolationistic in this area, and that has benefits and negatives. the benefit is yes, less violent but the negative is it tends to NOT advance human political liberty.

Again I just want you to think this more through, past the old...oooo religion is bad....the fact is slavery ended because of Moses.  It was practiced everywhere on earth UNTIL Christianity started ending it. The jewish story of human bondage. I could go on lol been devoting much historical study to this stuff as of late :)

 Many native peoples and religions never had slavery to begin with, and would have no reason to end something that would have never been started in the first place.  I am not saying ALL of the Native religions were peaceful, but most of those that were against violence were easily conquered  due to the fact they did not adequately defend themselves.  Hinduism as we know it now is a combination of native religions, most of which have greatly different customs and beliefs, just as with what happened to the Natives  when the Europeans invaded the Americas, their culture and religions could not withstand the brutality of their oppressors and they were forced to adapt or perish.

WHen Columbus came  to the new world, the people ran naked and free, treated them like family and gave all of what they had to their " new brothers" only to be met with  greed, enslavement and brutality. Even the Monk that wrote about the new world was appalled at how the people were treated. I respectfully disagree that Christianity is one of the only promoting peace, as that is the history reported from those who carried out the extinction of the much more peaceful religions of this world.

I do not see that they are bad because they are " successful" I see them successful because they are forced.

I would like to see the documentation of no slavery.

What you are describing to me is what I described to you -- a world at eternal war, and not until the movements started by the abrahamic faiths spread -- is there a real successful movement toward peace. Oh sure spots and breakouts of peace, but none successful until the judeo-christian worldview.

When columbus came to the new world he saw a world at war, He and later generations conquered that war -- in contrast to the teachings of their religion.

How many people do you know are Christians becaus ethey are forced?

I don't know any.

Christianity is a religion of ELECTION. One of the few.

How many jews were FORCED to be jews. None. They will even try and dissuade you from coverting. islam we'll set aside :)

I'm sorry your position is unteneable. The religions are not successful because they are forced, they are successful because they combine well with a scientif-technological outlook and that mastery has won the world.

Christianity combined with aristotle and the scientific method well. This led to men using it in the eternal quest for power to win the world, so to speak.

Again I think you are getting it backwards. many bad things can be laid at the feet of various religions. but everything YOU believe in -- came from the judeo-christain tradition.

the western notions of liberty and equality are a dierct outgrowthy if the judeo christian way. Sorry I feel your position is untenable.

  deviliscious

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/07
Posts: 6929

"Adjusts ponytails and pulls the lollipop out of my mouth"

9/03/10 9:45:15 PM#126
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

 I am not saying all religions are bad, far from it. I am saying that those that stemmed from Judaism have very direct condemnation of other religions, and promote intolerance. We can;t just ignore the bad stuff and say ," but look over here at the good stuff they say" when there are other religions that do not contain the condemnation, strict rules for sex, and one path to " salvation." The religions that came from Judaism promote conflict, whereas the many of the ancient natural religions promote unity without that conflict. But Most Christians do not even realize that, because they have only the biblical view of those religions to base their conclusions from, and are taught to fear the unknown.

The bad in the old and new testament to me, must be taken with the good , and as the book says itself , to change the book is to commit blasphemy. The bible, just like the Qur'an tell you that you must follow the book or you are sinning. For me, that means I have to take it for what it is, or not take it at all, and I choose the latter. Don;t get me wrong, I think there is much to be learned about history from this book, but I do not see that as the path to Spiritual well being, at least not for me.

Those that stemmed from Judaism ALSO ended slavery, preserved the Greek notion of Democracy, combined it with the Roman notion of republic, brought us the NOTION of euality between the sexs and all men, carried the logic of aristotle forward so that, combined with the scientific method (nrought forth by muslims and later Christians).

Meanwhile Hindus were slaughtering each other for centuries. Same with shinto. EVeryone slaughers everyone, from all religions. Your ancestors and my wives were slaugherting each other foreever before  the white man showed up.

What made the abrahamic faiths look "bad" is that they are successful -- they essentially built the western world -- and it was a mixd bag indeed. What made them successful is their UNIVERSALITY -- they DO preach they are all about ALL, and thus. yeah that has brought power, and yeah, it has spilled blood,

However, one could just as easily argue it was TECNOLOGY and SCIENCE and RREASON that has actually caused the increase in blood and war. Look at that same western civ. Is it the religions? Or is it the technology we created and then well, as people will, used to conquor.

I am not saying religion isn't a component in war. but I think you have it backwards. I think you are seeing three very successful religions, and humans being evil because humans will be evil -- and they are very successful at turning religion into evil as well.

the fact is all three religions can be seen just as easily at the center of peace as war, and have been time and again. I must say that Christianity probably has the best record in history of waging peace. Better than all other faiths combined I would say.

Think about it. This is a world at war --  has been for all time -- Christianity is one of the ONLY messages of peace. Buddhism as well, but that one doesn't wage peace -- it's more internal, more  isolationistic in this area, and that has benefits and negatives. the benefit is yes, less violent but the negative is it tends to NOT advance human political liberty.

Again I just want you to think this more through, past the old...oooo religion is bad....the fact is slavery ended because of Moses.  It was practiced everywhere on earth UNTIL Christianity started ending it. The jewish story of human bondage. I could go on lol been devoting much historical study to this stuff as of late :)

 Many native peoples and religions never had slavery to begin with, and would have no reason to end something that would have never been started in the first place.  I am not saying ALL of the Native religions were peaceful, but most of those that were against violence were easily conquered  due to the fact they did not adequately defend themselves.  Hinduism as we know it now is a combination of native religions, most of which have greatly different customs and beliefs, just as with what happened to the Natives  when the Europeans invaded the Americas, their culture and religions could not withstand the brutality of their oppressors and they were forced to adapt or perish.

WHen Columbus came  to the new world, the people ran naked and free, treated them like family and gave all of what they had to their " new brothers" only to be met with  greed, enslavement and brutality. Even the Monk that wrote about the new world was appalled at how the people were treated. I respectfully disagree that Christianity is one of the only promoting peace, as that is the history reported from those who carried out the extinction of the much more peaceful religions of this world.

I do not see that they are bad because they are " successful" I see them successful because they are forced.

I would like to see the documentation of no slavery.

What you are describing to me is what I described to you -- a world at eternal war, and not until the movements started by the abrahamic faiths spread -- is there a real successful movement toward peace. Oh sure spots and breakouts of peace, but none successful until the judeo-christian worldview.

When columbus came to the new world he saw a world at war, He and later generations conquered that war -- in contrast to the teachings of their religion.

How many people do you know are Christians becaus ethey are forced?

I don't know any.

Christianity is a religion of ELECTION. One of the few.

How many jews were FORCED to be jews. None. They will even try and dissuade you from coverting. islam we'll set aside :)

I'm sorry your position is unteneable. The religions are not successful because they are forced, they are successful because they combine well with a scientif-technological outlook and that mastery has won the world.

Christianity combined with aristotle and the scientific method well. This led to men using it in the eternal quest for power to win the world, so to speak.

Again I think you are getting it backwards. many bad things can be laid at the feet of various religions. but everything YOU believe in -- came from the judeo-christain tradition.

the western notions of liberty and equality are a dierct outgrowthy if the judeo christian way. Sorry I feel your position is untenable.

 The entire world was not at war, when columbus came to the new world this is what he saw:

 

Columbus installed himself as Governor of the Caribbean islands, with headquarters on Hispaniola (the large island now shared by Haiti and the Dominican Republic). He described the people, the Arawaks (called by some the Tainos) this way:

"The people of this island and of all the other islands which I have found and seen, or have not seen, all go naked, men and women, as their mothers bore them, except that some women cover one place only with the leaf of a plant or with a net of cotton which they make for that purpose. They have no iron or steel or weapons, nor are they capable of using them, although they are well-built people of handsome stature, because they are wondrous timid.... [T]hey are so artless and free with all they possess, that no one would believe it without having seen it. Of anything they have, if you ask them for it, they never say no; rather they invite the person to share it, and show as much love as if they were giving their hearts; and whether the thing be of value or of small price, at once they are content with whatever little thing of whatever kind may be given to them."[3,pg.63;1,pg.118]  

How could they have been at war if they as Columbus himself said, " they have no iron or steel weapons, nor are they capable of using them." ? They were not in need of being " saved" if anything it sounds as if it was Columbus and his men that needed to be saved.

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

9/03/10 9:57:37 PM#127
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by deviliscious
Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by deviliscious

What I cannot understand, however, is why would anyone want to join a religion that says they would be put to death or go to a fiery hell for doing what they believe in their hearts to be right? That I do not understand. Wouldn't common sense tell them that  isn't for them, and to go look elsewhere for their spiritual guidance? I mean there are many religions in this world.. why would they even want to be a part of a religion that condemns them for doing what is natural to them? Many much older religions do not condemn them, so why choose to try and change their religion, and make it your own? LOL

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Personally, I think that anyone who changes what it originally says to make it suit their needs isn't a member of that religion at all- they just created their own instead, and they should not expect it to be acknowledged by those  that follow the original religion, because it clearly is not the same thing at all.

I do not understand how modern day Christians can some how overlook all of the bad stuff they disagree with and suddenly try to change it into a " living document" when it clearly states to change it at all is Blasphemy and condemns it.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all like this, and I guess it explains why the world is so bat shit crazy these days. LOL!

It is funny though according to all of those religions, I am considered a " Pagaen" an outcast and condemned.. Why would I want to be a part of their madness? I am just an onlooker in awe of their barbarianism... They all appear to be quite mad.

 Come on, ^liscious, you're smarter than that.  You know that the world's problems are not due to the existence of these religions.  Warping religion is simply a symptom of the root problem.  The world is the way it is because of the fallen state of mankind.  This results in the perversion of everything from religion to music (cough* New Kids on the Block).

Look at what's happening on your southern border.  Drug lords have turned Mexico into a war zone.  Citizens are being killed, beheaded and strung from bridges.  And for what?  For money.  These people are willing to kill indiscriminately and risk losing their own lives just to be rich.  It has nothing to do with religion.

And what is their commodity?  Illicit drugs.  They sell to people who are willing to risk damaging their own lives and/or health so they can get high on a substance that allows a temporary escape from reality.  They are trying to fill a void that has resulted from fallen state in which we all exist.

And just as some people will kill for money or do drugs in order to escape, others will take religion and turn it into their own "drug".  You get enough of them together who twist it to their own end and you get fundamentalists.  It's the same story in every walk of life and it will go one as long as the human race endures on this earth.

 Of course it isn;t the " root of all evil" LOL

 But it is the cause of the people on both sides refusing to accept " to each his own". On one side we have the church saying ,"repent or burn in hell!" on the other we have them saying " change your rules and let us in your club" meanwhile we have everyone else ignored because it is all about " their rights' and to hell with everyone else's rights.

I think you're off base here old friend. I think, by nature, we will only form small groups that we believe are OUR people, and religion is one of those things that actually extends the notion of brotherhood, albeit imperfectly.

Within each of the earth's major religions, there is a core that "ALL MEN ARE ONE"

This is in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hunduism, and Buddhism. I believe even plato's idealism and aristotle's deistic pantheism would say the same thing.

That is a Unifying Truth. We all fall short of it but all our great faiths command it. Then we fiddle with it, try and read into the message, read up on the particulars. Fight over em. And THEN that nasty tendency to separate acts up again.

That's humanity, not religion. That's biology whatever. TO be determined by science :)

 I am not saying all religions are bad, far from it. I am saying that those that stemmed from Judaism have very direct condemnation of other religions, and promote intolerance. We can;t just ignore the bad stuff and say ," but look over here at the good stuff they say" when there are other religions that do not contain the condemnation, strict rules for sex, and one path to " salvation." The religions that came from Judaism promote conflict, whereas the many of the ancient natural religions promote unity without that conflict. But Most Christians do not even realize that, because they have only the biblical view of those religions to base their conclusions from, and are taught to fear the unknown.

The bad in the old and new testament to me, must be taken with the good , and as the book says itself , to change the book is to commit blasphemy. The bible, just like the Qur'an tell you that you must follow the book or you are sinning. For me, that means I have to take it for what it is, or not take it at all, and I choose the latter. Don;t get me wrong, I think there is much to be learned about history from this book, but I do not see that as the path to Spiritual well being, at least not for me.

Those that stemmed from Judaism ALSO ended slavery, preserved the Greek notion of Democracy, combined it with the Roman notion of republic, brought us the NOTION of euality between the sexs and all men, carried the logic of aristotle forward so that, combined with the scientific method (nrought forth by muslims and later Christians).

Meanwhile Hindus were slaughtering each other for centuries. Same with shinto. EVeryone slaughers everyone, from all religions. Your ancestors and my wives were slaugherting each other foreever before  the white man showed up.

What made the abrahamic faiths look "bad" is that they are successful -- they essentially built the western world -- and it was a mixd bag indeed. What made them successful is their UNIVERSALITY -- they DO preach they are all about ALL, and thus. yeah that has brought power, and yeah, it has spilled blood,

However, one could just as easily argue it was TECNOLOGY and SCIENCE and RREASON that has actually caused the increase in blood and war. Look at that same western civ. Is it the religions? Or is it the technology we created and then well, as people will, used to conquor.

I am not saying religion isn't a component in war. but I think you have it backwards. I think you are seeing three very successful religions, and humans being evil because humans will be evil -- and they are very successful at turning religion into evil as well.

the fact is all three religions can be seen just as easily at the center of peace as war, and have been time and again. I must say that Christianity probably has the best record in history of waging peace. Better than all other faiths combined I would say.

Think about it. This is a world at war --  has been for all time -- Christianity is one of the ONLY messages of peace. Buddhism as well, but that one doesn't wage peace -- it's more internal, more  isolationistic in this area, and that has benefits and negatives. the benefit is yes, less violent but the negative is it tends to NOT advance human political liberty.

Again I just want you to think this more through, past the old...oooo religion is bad....the fact is slavery ended because of Moses.  It was practiced everywhere on earth UNTIL Christianity started ending it. The jewish story of human bondage. I could go on lol been devoting much historical study to this stuff as of late :)

 Many native peoples and religions never had slavery to begin with, and would have no reason to end something that would have never been started in the first place.  I am not saying ALL of the Native religions were peaceful, but most of those that were against violence were easily conquered  due to the fact they did not adequately defend themselves.  Hinduism as we know it now is a combination of native religions, most of which have greatly different customs and beliefs, just as with what happened to the Natives  when the Europeans invaded the Americas, their culture and religions could not withstand the brutality of their oppressors and they were forced to adapt or perish.

WHen Columbus came  to the new world, the people ran naked and free, treated them like family and gave all of what they had to their " new brothers" only to be met with  greed, enslavement and brutality. Even the Monk that wrote about the new world was appalled at how the people were treated. I respectfully disagree that Christianity is one of the only promoting peace, as that is the history reported from those who carried out the extinction of the much more peaceful religions of this world.

I do not see that they are bad because they are " successful" I see them successful because they are forced.

I would like to see the documentation of no slavery.

What you are describing to me is what I described to you -- a world at eternal war, and not until the movements started by the abrahamic faiths spread -- is there a real successful movement toward peace. Oh sure spots and breakouts of peace, but none successful until the judeo-christian worldview.

When columbus came to the new world he saw a world at war, He and later generations conquered that war -- in contrast to the teachings of their religion.

How many people do you know are Christians becaus ethey are forced?

I don't know any.

Christianity is a religion of ELECTION. One of the few.

How many jews were FORCED to be jews. None. They will even try and dissuade you from coverting. islam we'll set aside :)

I'm sorry your position is unteneable. The religions are not successful because they are forced, they are successful because they combine well with a scientif-technological outlook and that mastery has won the world.

Christianity combined with aristotle and the scientific method well. This led to men using it in the eternal quest for power to win the world, so to speak.

Again I think you are getting it backwards. many bad things can be laid at the feet of various religions. but everything YOU believe in -- came from the judeo-christain tradition.

the western notions of liberty and equality are a dierct outgrowthy if the judeo christian way. Sorry I feel your position is untenable.

 The entire world was not at war, when columbus came to the new world this is what he saw:

 

Columbus installed himself as Governor of the Caribbean islands, with headquarters on Hispaniola (the large island now shared by Haiti and the Dominican Republic). He described the people, the Arawaks (called by some the Tainos) this way:

"The people of this island and of all the other islands which I have found and seen, or have not seen, all go naked, men and women, as their mothers bore them, except that some women cover one place only with the leaf of a plant or with a net of cotton which they make for that purpose. They have no iron or steel or weapons, nor are they capable of using them, although they are well-built people of handsome stature, because they are wondrous timid.... [T]hey are so artless and free with all they possess, that no one would believe it without having seen it. Of anything they have, if you ask them for it, they never say no; rather they invite the person to share it, and show as much love as if they were giving their hearts; and whether the thing be of value or of small price, at once they are content with whatever little thing of whatever kind may be given to them."[3,pg.63;1,pg.118]  

How could they have been at war if they as Columbus himself said, " they have no iron or steel weapons, nor are they capable of using them." ? They were not in need of being " saved" if anything it sounds as if it was Columbus and his men that needed to be saved.

I'm sorry I am talking about the western world , which, other than some small cultures (in this case a small island culture), was a world at war. Sorry i wasn't more clear.

that small island culture did not develop the notions of equality and liberty for all mankind. They were conquored and enslaved by the one that did. That one was violating the teachings of their teacher in enslaving others, and eventually ended it.

They also ended infanticide, and spread the rule of law everywhere it went. It made princes subject to a law above them.

I'm not denying any of the bad but I'm sorry I see everything we have that is good has been brought forward by this faith tradition.

The BEST would naturally be capable if a lot of bad. When superman goes bad he can wreck a city -- but that's because he is superman -- and usually when he is being what he is he is good.

I don't really see how anything you are saying is invalidating my case.

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

9/03/10 10:03:58 PM#128

Oh, and if anyone wants the research and staistics that back me up, they can find what I find compelling information in "IN Defense of Faith" by David Brog.

there's many more buit that's a fun one since it's a jew praising MOSTLY Christianity, and it's the most recent up to date info.

However the one that compiles the most stats on things like this is Vox Day's "Irrational Atheist." Mostly because he is going affter the silly. easily refutable stuff sam harris and the like put out.

 

Vox can be a dick, though. He's right on the money in his historical argument. I have more if anyone isn't convinced by thesetwo, as always.

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

9/03/10 10:10:06 PM#129

anyway it has been lovely discussing this I gots thangs to do :)

Catch you later maybe!

  zchmrkenhoff

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 2256

The biggest argument against democracy is a 5 minute discussion with the average voter

9/03/10 11:03:03 PM#130
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
 

In Christianity, marriage is the spiritual union wherein the souls of a man and a woman are joined together eternally upon the heavenly plane (there is no scriptural proof that states marriage HAS TO BE ONLY between a man and a woman)  You are not given permission to interpret scripture, only the successors to the apostles have been given this ability by Jesus Christ himself.  Oh I have permission to intepret scripture all i want. Your reasoning of only the successors to the apostles can do it silliness. I am a ordained minister. I get PAID to interpret scripture. Pastors everywhere do it. So This argument is utterly invalid and holds no merit.
You calling something silliness doesn't make it so. You can deny the validity of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church, yet your doing so doesn't change the fact that it is the sole church created by Jesus Christ. It is a dreadful shame that it is broken into a few parts in the present day, yet the church still stands. Your ecclesiastical community does not, in any way, represent the interpretations of the church fathers or the successors to the apostles. You can very well interpret scripture... though you are in no way given permission to do so, and your interpretation means nothing.

What you or I interpret from scripture holds no significance whatsoever. I only believe what the church fathers, the apostles, and their successors say, as they are the intermediary between heaven and us on Earth.  (i am sure the Pharisees said the same thing to Christ when he interpret the Old testament Laws. God forbid someone interpreting scripture beyond Moses.....if you believe Moses actually wrote it)

This argument denies the divinity of Christ, and it's becoming quite clear that you aren't a Christian at all.

 

They have determined from scripture that marriage is between a man and a woman.  (No they didnt. Sorry.)

Living in denial doesn't change the facts. If you truly don't believe that the church fathers and the successors to the apostles have determined that marriage is between a man and a woman, then I encourage you to write them a letter and ask them what they have interpreted from scripture in this regard.

 

If you don't like it, then perhaps Christianity isn't the religion for you.  Oh it is. Too bad you are too narrow minded to see beyond your own theological ignorance. Oh and since the Apostles said Christ would return in their lifetime I bet we cant interpret that either...as well all know Jesus came back a second time in the Apostles lifetime :rolls eyes:. I am glad I am a Christian. So I can teach people that people like you are not correct. 

This argument operates off of the premise that the Apostles are infalliable, when they are not... they are merely undivine, imperfect Mankind like you or I. It is a shame that the apostles didn't get to see Jesus' return, and I'm sure they, as well as others, would have benefited for it.

And as far as I can tell, rather than abiding by what Jesus' church interprets from scripture, you would rather use your own interpretation and pretend that that is what Christ "actually meant." This in no way constitutes doctrinal continuity, and as you are not a successor to the apostles, your interpretation is meaningless and invalid.

You can pretend that I am theologically ignorant, yet when you ignore the fact that Christ established one church, and he spoke of the necessity of having one, united, catholic church, it shows that you are ready to pick and choose what you wish from scripture.

You have denied the divinity of Jesus above, you have also claimed that the apostles are infalliable, and you make the claim that individual interpretation of scripture is superior to the interpretations made by that of Christ's church. For these reasons, you show your utter incompetence at this regard.

If by "people like me" you mean someone who believes in Christ and follows the interpretations of scripture as dictated by the people that Christ gave permission to interpret it? Then I'm shocked, as you are poisoning the minds of the world into believing a schismatic, heterodox form of Christianity, and you are playing an active role in shattering the religion and converting it into some tool to use for ignorance and hatred.

Making a schismatic heterodox church that breaks from the doctrinal continuity of the church and which twists things to suit the current sway of contemporary society creates way more problems than it solves..

Hey, its your little denominational club house. You boys can do whatever you want. Im here to tell you, you are wrong. You are a minority and one day your little club house churches will be gone because people aren't going to tolerate such theological nonsense.

It is often said that people like you will try to destroy Christ's church, though I just never knew that that was your intention. I can assure you, that no matter how much hatred and violence you show towards Christians, you will NEVER destroy Christ's church or his believers, because that is the power of their faith. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and all other modern day incarnations of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church represent by an overwhelming percentage the vast majority of Christians in the world, and while you may hate them, loathe them, and despise them for worshipping Christ and following his message, you will never be able to defeat them or their faith.

And do you know why? It is because the type of evil you wish to bring to it never wins. If you want to insult good Christian people, if you want to be intolerant of them, and if you want to destroy their religion, then there are groups in the middle east who have the same exact agenda as you. Maybe you can join them and play an active part in bringing about the destruction of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc. churches. Though I promise you, you will never win; the Church has stood for almost 2000 years, being at hte center of countless wars, invasions, and genocides. What makes you think your hatred will destroy it?

 

In the USA, marriage is the legal process wherein two people are recognized as being together by the state/government in order for them to receive financial benefits.

Marriage is between man and a woman.

Wrong

Just because you say something, doesn't make it so. Your personal interpretations of scripture are meaningless... whatever your ecclesiastical community may think in no way matches the interpretations made by Christ's church, and although you may not like their interpretation, that's what it is. If you disagree so much with Christianity, then why on Earth do you want to be a Christian?

Marriage is between all.

Correct.

Twisting my words to suit your own agenda, what a common tactic among people filled with bigotry and unable to see past their own prejudices.

If marriage is only restricted to man and woman, yet at the same time marriage is not only restricted to man and woman, how is this sensible? It isn't. Since gays cannot be married in Christianity,  (yes they can. My Church marries gay people all the time and they are a very large denomination)

If your denomination is unable to make a valid claim to being the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church, then your denomination is nothing but a schismatic ecclesiastical community that in no way upholds the doctrinal continuity of the actual church created by Jesus, and thus it is irrelevent.

lol. Nice. And the little fundamentalist comes out of his little whole to spout off his elitism.  My denomination worships Christ. It is a recognized Church which is established in many many countries. We hold to scriptural teachings. Wake up and realize your little clubhouse church isn't alone.

Your ecclesiastical community, when it decided to split from the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church, forefeited its claims to having either doctrinal or apostolic continuity, and thus even calling it a "church" would be a fallacy. While you do accept, in some way, God into your lives, you have yet to truly understand the Christian religion, and I hope that someday you are able to overcome your hatred and prejudices, fully accept Christ into your life, and join the church that he built on the Earth.

yet since gays can be married by the state, then a conflict is created as those marriages aren't the same at all and it would be offensive and demeaning to married Christians (its offensive and demeaning to narrow minded Christians who have very little knowledge in interpretating scripture...see original post).
Again, it is not our responsibility or freedom to interpret scripture.

Yes it is. Maybe not in your little cultic church it isn't. But Ive been part of four denominations and we all interpret scripture. Although your support for not interpreting scripture speaks volumes to me because your ignorance in theological matters is amazing...which would explain many things. 

FALSIFICATION OF REALITY. LOOK IT UP:

As of April 27th, 2010, the number of Roman Catholics in the world is 1.16 billion.

There are an estimated 225-300 million Christians in the Eastern Orthodox Church worldwide.

The Anglican Communion is home to 80 million members worldwide,

In addition to these, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and some Independent Catholic churches are also recognized as having apostolic succession, and can therefore claim to be one of the fragments of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church. If you do the maths:

The Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican members of the world are a total of 1,396,000,000... and that isn't even counting those adherents of those other valid churches listed above.

WIth the population of the world estimated at this very moment to be 6,697,254,041, this means that 21% of the entire world belongs to some sort of incarnation of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church.

Little cultic church? I don't think so.

I think you would rather pretend that Jesus Christ's church is just some small nonentity, though you are wrong. Your ecclesiastical community is just some schismatic, heterodoxic fringe group that has lost its ability to claim doctrinal or apostolic continuity to the actual teachings of Christ, of the early church fathers, as well as the church itself.

I hope that someday you are able to overcome the fantastic haze in which you see the world, are able to accept the message of Christ, and join his church, rather than twisting his words and scripture to suit your own agenda. 21% of the world is able to accept Christ.... if you aren't one of them, then find a belief that suits yours.

 

 

 

Jesus built his church upon Simon Peter and the apostles, and it is they and their successors who have this ability.

Every Christian has the right to interpret scripture. Again you are wrong.

No, they do not. The only people whom are given the permission to interpret scripture are the successors to the apostles, as it is upon them that Jesus built his church. It is they who act as the intermediary between heaven and us on Earth, and we require them to interpret scripture as best as they are able, and preach it to us so that we can understand what it means.

Do I have the ability to interpret scripture myself? Yes. Though just because I can do something doesn't mean I'm meant to. You can ignore Christ and his  church, though you are in no way representative of him or his church by interpreting scripture to suit your own beliefs.

Calling someone narrow-minded because you have violated the order of the religion by interpreting scripture individually just shows your misunderstanding of how things work. Anyone can interpret scripture, though every single one of their opinons will be invalid. The only people that have the permission to do so are the successors to the apostles.

Actually, you are narrow minded and ignorant. One without merit of creadibility in this matter.

You have denied the divinity of Christ, have claimed that the apostles are infalliable, have claimed that 21% of the world attends a church that is a "small cult," belong to an ecclesiastical community that calls itself a "church" which lacks either doctrinal or apostolic continuity, and you have expressed a desire that the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican Churches, and etc. all be destroyed and it's followers done away with for they do not believe what you believe. And you have the audacity to call me narrow minded and ignorant, and insult my credibility with regards to these affairs? 

At this point, I am forced to assume that you are a bigot. I cannot reasonably believe that anyone who is open to reason would stand by the things that you do, and therefore to continue to debate this with you is a complete waste of time.

Since homosexuality is a sin of lust that is dangerous to humans, it has been justly determined to not be able to be blessed with a marriage union and I do not see any circumstance or reason why that should change.

Wrong again. But since you don't intepret scripture, I have no desire to prove how wrong you are.

The solution is to simply add an adjective and change the labels.

A religious marriage is between a man and a woman.

A civil marriage is between all.

I disagree. Many Christian churches honors and preforms gay marriages all the time. Its only the narrow minded fundamentalists elitists that has an issue over it and they are diminishing. Praise God! A marriage is a marriage. Don't give gay people a different term of it. That's silly.

NO, this is absolutely incorrect. The government recognized marriage is a completely different concept than a religious marriage. They are NOT the same in any regard, and they have NO BUSINESS being linked together. They have confliction if they share the same label, and they require different labels in order to be differentiated.

Wrong again.

Now you have a working system that lacks conflict.

You can continue pretending that there is no conflict and that it is just in my mind, though your fantasy is not the reality. You still further do not understand what logic are reason are, and after having defined those concepts to you multiple times, I have at this point given up as you seem incapable of understanding what they are.

 

"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro

  deviliscious

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/07
Posts: 6929

"Adjusts ponytails and pulls the lollipop out of my mouth"

9/03/10 11:31:41 PM#131
Originally posted by Fishermage

anyway it has been lovely discussing this I gots thangs to do :)

Catch you later maybe!

 I too am too busy to go into great discussion due to family crisis that never seems to pause at the moment and wish I had more time to discuss thie at greater lengths. This I do believe is an issue I will have to just agree to disagree, as my view on it is from looking in from the outside.

My views are that Western History is tainted  by the victors who had to justify their barbaric actions by writing their own distorted view of events making unfounded accusations demonizing  and dehumanizing those they crushed that often did not even defend themselves. They used force through laws, violence, peer pressure, and enslavement in order to accomplish their goals and feared that the free living ways of the natives would undermine their own power to control their own people when exposed to such civilizations, so they felt it necessary to destroy them.

And yes, due to my background, I have seen CHristianity forced on cultures, including my own through the educational system, and how it was introduced into the Native tribes here in the US. Instead of encouraging the natives to keep to their own religions and beliefs, they taught them their beliefs were pagan and  they would be condemend unless they " embraced Christ". Instead of bringing non religious schools to the tribes, in order to be educated, you had no choice but to be " Christianized".

Even many Modern Jews, Christians, and Muslims fear free living natural religions. They fear their children will be " tainted" by such ways and wish to eradicate them because they go againt their lifestyle, and what they were taught. They fear the influence on their society if there are people who feel no wrongdoing in sex, people who feel no shame for being naked, people who can share freely all their worldy possessions and hold no contempt for one another without having been " saved".  This goes against what they were taught about " pagans" and do not want their family exposed to such things, so they feel it necessary to supress it to protect what they hold dear, no matter the cost to the other cultures, or the rights of those they oppose.

Natural religions do not go against science, much of civilization yes, because from what I was taught was that Humans are the care takers of the earth. That it is our duty to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it. That we are all a part of the whole, and that all is necessary to have balance. We were taught that we do not " own" the earth, but the earth is a living being, and allows us to live  here. If we do not take care of the mother earth, it will no longer allow us to dwell upon it. I was taught that great spirit is a part of all things, with us always. It is the energy that makes up all things, even the rocks, the grass, the insects, the stars in the sky and the air we breathe.  We cannot own parts of the earth, are not entitled to "land properties" because we serve the earth, and are not entitled to claim parts of it.

Quite a bit different than " sins for sex", no sex is a natural, spiritual, and a great part of life and should be enjoyed to the fullest.

 LOL In my beliefs I was taught it is a sin to contaminate the water, but have as much sex as you like and enjoy it. LMAO!

  seabass2003

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/05
Posts: 4158

Why the hell should I work? She''ll just spend all my money on shoes anyways!

9/04/10 12:14:39 AM#132

I like Glenn Beck's view on Gay Marriage. Personally, I am not going to go out out and be pro-gay marriage but at the same time I won't stand in anyone's way who wants gay marriage. In fact if it came up on my voter's ballot I would just leave it blank.

In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

9/04/10 1:45:56 AM#133

/beginning of non-post post

 

I post in almost any thread on the topic of the fundies or human rights. But I'm not in the mood to argue with zch (or w/e his name is) today, so....I'm just posting as one of the forum lesbians to show my support to the supporters in the thread.

Thank you to everyone who believes I have the right to equal happiness and misery under the law. Much appreciated. My partner and our three young adult children also thank you.  /hugs

 

/end of non-post post

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/04/10 5:52:18 AM#134
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
 

In Christianity, marriage is the spiritual union wherein the souls of a man and a woman are joined together eternally upon the heavenly plane (there is no scriptural proof that states marriage HAS TO BE ONLY between a man and a woman)  You are not given permission to interpret scripture, only the successors to the apostles have been given this ability by Jesus Christ himself.  Oh I have permission to intepret scripture all i want. Your reasoning of only the successors to the apostles can do it silliness. I am a ordained minister. I get PAID to interpret scripture. Pastors everywhere do it. So This argument is utterly invalid and holds no merit.
You calling something silliness doesn't make it so. You can deny the validity of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church, yet your doing so doesn't change the fact that it is the sole church created by Jesus Christ. It is a dreadful shame that it is broken into a few parts in the present day, yet the church still stands. Your ecclesiastical community does not, in any way, represent the interpretations of the church fathers or the successors to the apostles. You can very well interpret scripture... though you are in no way given permission to do so, and your interpretation means nothing.

What you or I interpret from scripture holds no significance whatsoever. I only believe what the church fathers, the apostles, and their successors say, as they are the intermediary between heaven and us on Earth.  (i am sure the Pharisees said the same thing to Christ when he interpret the Old testament Laws. God forbid someone interpreting scripture beyond Moses.....if you believe Moses actually wrote it)

This argument denies the divinity of Christ, and it's becoming quite clear that you aren't a Christian at all.

 

They have determined from scripture that marriage is between a man and a woman.  (No they didnt. Sorry.)

Living in denial doesn't change the facts. If you truly don't believe that the church fathers and the successors to the apostles have determined that marriage is between a man and a woman, then I encourage you to write them a letter and ask them what they have interpreted from scripture in this regard.

 

If you don't like it, then perhaps Christianity isn't the religion for you.  Oh it is. Too bad you are too narrow minded to see beyond your own theological ignorance. Oh and since the Apostles said Christ would return in their lifetime I bet we cant interpret that either...as well all know Jesus came back a second time in the Apostles lifetime :rolls eyes:. I am glad I am a Christian. So I can teach people that people like you are not correct. 

This argument operates off of the premise that the Apostles are infalliable, when they are not... they are merely undivine, imperfect Mankind like you or I. It is a shame that the apostles didn't get to see Jesus' return, and I'm sure they, as well as others, would have benefited for it.

And as far as I can tell, rather than abiding by what Jesus' church interprets from scripture, you would rather use your own interpretation and pretend that that is what Christ "actually meant." This in no way constitutes doctrinal continuity, and as you are not a successor to the apostles, your interpretation is meaningless and invalid.

You can pretend that I am theologically ignorant, yet when you ignore the fact that Christ established one church, and he spoke of the necessity of having one, united, catholic church, it shows that you are ready to pick and choose what you wish from scripture.

You have denied the divinity of Jesus above, you have also claimed that the apostles are infalliable, and you make the claim that individual interpretation of scripture is superior to the interpretations made by that of Christ's church. For these reasons, you show your utter incompetence at this regard.

If by "people like me" you mean someone who believes in Christ and follows the interpretations of scripture as dictated by the people that Christ gave permission to interpret it? Then I'm shocked, as you are poisoning the minds of the world into believing a schismatic, heterodox form of Christianity, and you are playing an active role in shattering the religion and converting it into some tool to use for ignorance and hatred.

Making a schismatic heterodox church that breaks from the doctrinal continuity of the church and which twists things to suit the current sway of contemporary society creates way more problems than it solves..

Hey, its your little denominational club house. You boys can do whatever you want. Im here to tell you, you are wrong. You are a minority and one day your little club house churches will be gone because people aren't going to tolerate such theological nonsense.

It is often said that people like you will try to destroy Christ's church, though I just never knew that that was your intention. I can assure you, that no matter how much hatred and violence you show towards Christians, you will NEVER destroy Christ's church or his believers, because that is the power of their faith. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and all other modern day incarnations of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church represent by an overwhelming percentage the vast majority of Christians in the world, and while you may hate them, loathe them, and despise them for worshipping Christ and following his message, you will never be able to defeat them or their faith.

And do you know why? It is because the type of evil you wish to bring to it never wins. If you want to insult good Christian people, if you want to be intolerant of them, and if you want to destroy their religion, then there are groups in the middle east who have the same exact agenda as you. Maybe you can join them and play an active part in bringing about the destruction of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc. churches. Though I promise you, you will never win; the Church has stood for almost 2000 years, being at hte center of countless wars, invasions, and genocides. What makes you think your hatred will destroy it?

 

In the USA, marriage is the legal process wherein two people are recognized as being together by the state/government in order for them to receive financial benefits.

Marriage is between man and a woman.

Wrong

Just because you say something, doesn't make it so. Your personal interpretations of scripture are meaningless... whatever your ecclesiastical community may think in no way matches the interpretations made by Christ's church, and although you may not like their interpretation, that's what it is. If you disagree so much with Christianity, then why on Earth do you want to be a Christian?

Marriage is between all.

Correct.

Twisting my words to suit your own agenda, what a common tactic among people filled with bigotry and unable to see past their own prejudices.

If marriage is only restricted to man and woman, yet at the same time marriage is not only restricted to man and woman, how is this sensible? It isn't. Since gays cannot be married in Christianity,  (yes they can. My Church marries gay people all the time and they are a very large denomination)

If your denomination is unable to make a valid claim to being the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church, then your denomination is nothing but a schismatic ecclesiastical community that in no way upholds the doctrinal continuity of the actual church created by Jesus, and thus it is irrelevent.

lol. Nice. And the little fundamentalist comes out of his little whole to spout off his elitism.  My denomination worships Christ. It is a recognized Church which is established in many many countries. We hold to scriptural teachings. Wake up and realize your little clubhouse church isn't alone.

Your ecclesiastical community, when it decided to split from the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church, forefeited its claims to having either doctrinal or apostolic continuity, and thus even calling it a "church" would be a fallacy. While you do accept, in some way, God into your lives, you have yet to truly understand the Christian religion, and I hope that someday you are able to overcome your hatred and prejudices, fully accept Christ into your life, and join the church that he built on the Earth.

yet since gays can be married by the state, then a conflict is created as those marriages aren't the same at all and it would be offensive and demeaning to married Christians (its offensive and demeaning to narrow minded Christians who have very little knowledge in interpretating scripture...see original post).
Again, it is not our responsibility or freedom to interpret scripture.

Yes it is. Maybe not in your little cultic church it isn't. But Ive been part of four denominations and we all interpret scripture. Although your support for not interpreting scripture speaks volumes to me because your ignorance in theological matters is amazing...which would explain many things. 

FALSIFICATION OF REALITY. LOOK IT UP:

As of April 27th, 2010, the number of Roman Catholics in the world is 1.16 billion.

There are an estimated 225-300 million Christians in the Eastern Orthodox Church worldwide.

The Anglican Communion is home to 80 million members worldwide,

In addition to these, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and some Independent Catholic churches are also recognized as having apostolic succession, and can therefore claim to be one of the fragments of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church. If you do the maths:

The Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican members of the world are a total of 1,396,000,000... and that isn't even counting those adherents of those other valid churches listed above.

WIth the population of the world estimated at this very moment to be 6,697,254,041, this means that 21% of the entire world belongs to some sort of incarnation of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church.

Little cultic church? I don't think so.

I think you would rather pretend that Jesus Christ's church is just some small nonentity, though you are wrong. Your ecclesiastical community is just some schismatic, heterodoxic fringe group that has lost its ability to claim doctrinal or apostolic continuity to the actual teachings of Christ, of the early church fathers, as well as the church itself.

I hope that someday you are able to overcome the fantastic haze in which you see the world, are able to accept the message of Christ, and join his church, rather than twisting his words and scripture to suit your own agenda. 21% of the world is able to accept Christ.... if you aren't one of them, then find a belief that suits yours.

 

 

 

Jesus built his church upon Simon Peter and the apostles, and it is they and their successors who have this ability.

Every Christian has the right to interpret scripture. Again you are wrong.

No, they do not. The only people whom are given the permission to interpret scripture are the successors to the apostles, as it is upon them that Jesus built his church. It is they who act as the intermediary between heaven and us on Earth, and we require them to interpret scripture as best as they are able, and preach it to us so that we can understand what it means.

Do I have the ability to interpret scripture myself? Yes. Though just because I can do something doesn't mean I'm meant to. You can ignore Christ and his  church, though you are in no way representative of him or his church by interpreting scripture to suit your own beliefs.

Calling someone narrow-minded because you have violated the order of the religion by interpreting scripture individually just shows your misunderstanding of how things work. Anyone can interpret scripture, though every single one of their opinons will be invalid. The only people that have the permission to do so are the successors to the apostles.

Actually, you are narrow minded and ignorant. One without merit of creadibility in this matter.

You have denied the divinity of Christ, have claimed that the apostles are infalliable, have claimed that 21% of the world attends a church that is a "small cult," belong to an ecclesiastical community that calls itself a "church" which lacks either doctrinal or apostolic continuity, and you have expressed a desire that the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican Churches, and etc. all be destroyed and it's followers done away with for they do not believe what you believe. And you have the audacity to call me narrow minded and ignorant, and insult my credibility with regards to these affairs? 

At this point, I am forced to assume that you are a bigot. I cannot reasonably believe that anyone who is open to reason would stand by the things that you do, and therefore to continue to debate this with you is a complete waste of time.

Since homosexuality is a sin of lust that is dangerous to humans, it has been justly determined to not be able to be blessed with a marriage union and I do not see any circumstance or reason why that should change.

Wrong again. But since you don't intepret scripture, I have no desire to prove how wrong you are.

The solution is to simply add an adjective and change the labels.

A religious marriage is between a man and a woman.

A civil marriage is between all.

I disagree. Many Christian churches honors and preforms gay marriages all the time. Its only the narrow minded fundamentalists elitists that has an issue over it and they are diminishing. Praise God! A marriage is a marriage. Don't give gay people a different term of it. That's silly.

NO, this is absolutely incorrect. The government recognized marriage is a completely different concept than a religious marriage. They are NOT the same in any regard, and they have NO BUSINESS being linked together. They have confliction if they share the same label, and they require different labels in order to be differentiated.

Wrong again.

Now you have a working system that lacks conflict.

You can continue pretending that there is no conflict and that it is just in my mind, though your fantasy is not the reality. You still further do not understand what logic are reason are, and after having defined those concepts to you multiple times, I have at this point given up as you seem incapable of understanding what they are.

 

 Serioulsy

Debating with you as a moot point as you believe we should not interprete scripture. Such silliness.

  zchmrkenhoff

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 2256

The biggest argument against democracy is a 5 minute discussion with the average voter

9/04/10 7:50:02 AM#135
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

 Serioulsy

Debating with you as a moot point as you believe we should not interprete scripture. Such silliness.

You don't have to like that, but that's how it is. I personally think that it's nice that it was setup that way... Jesus after all wanted to create just one universal church, he would likely be completely shocked at how shattered and broken his church is. He designated the elite of his followers, the apostles, to be the ones upon which he would construct his church... who better, as they were the ones who knew him best and could best understand his life and teachings? His intention was, knowing that he would be gone someday, to build a church upon this Earth that would serve as the medium between the heavenly plane and us on Earth... they would come together in great ecunemical councils to decide matters of faith and theology.

It's a shame it doesn't work like that anymore and the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian church is divided into a few factions. It is for this reason that they need to mend their wounds and reconcile with one another... they are stubborn. If you speak to a Roman Catholic, what do they say? "Only Roman Catholicism is the REAL church, all of the other ones are doing it wrong." Well the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Anglican Communion, and various others all legitimately can claim to be the real church as well... it's time to overcome this stubborn pride, reform the actual church, and denounce every single schismatic fringe group like Protestants, Fundamentalists, Unitarians, or whatever and recreate the church as Jesus would have wanted it to be: Catholic (meaning universal... a single church).

It's my personal belief that the Eastern Orthodox church is the Church in its truest form: it containts the overwhelming majority of the apostlic sees and their successors, it is largely unchanged since its inception almost 2000 years ago, and in my opinion they are most virtuous. You don't hear of Eastern Orthodox sex scandles.... Eastern Orthodox genocides... there's nothing like that, as they embody the virtues and teachings of Jesus fully and always have. The church will almost be working at 100% if the Pope and the Roman Catholic church reunites, as the majority of the apostlic successors (including the most important one) will be together again... at that point bringing in the other true factions of Christ's church wouldn't be that difficult.

All of the crazy ecclesiastical communities that mistakingly call themselves "churches" which use hatred, bigotry, which pick and choose which aspects of scripture to follow, whom interpret scripture individually, whom permit gay marriage, whom lack either doctrinal or apostolic continuity, and which have no connection to Christ's church, can be then denounced and excommunicated entirely as being not representative of or connected to Christianity whatsoever.

"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro

  zchmrkenhoff

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 2256

The biggest argument against democracy is a 5 minute discussion with the average voter

9/04/10 8:14:44 AM#136
Originally posted by just1opinion

/beginning of non-post post

 

I post in almost any thread on the topic of the fundies or human rights. But I'm not in the mood to argue with zch (or w/e his name is) today, so....I'm just posting as one of the forum lesbians to show my support to the supporters in the thread.

Thank you to everyone who believes I have the right to equal happiness and misery under the law. Much appreciated. My partner and our three young adult children also thank you.  /hugs

 

/end of non-post post

After learning of your desire to bring harm to Christians who worship at the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian Church by means of terrorism, after having been shocked to see that you believe that the entire world is brainwashed by our governments and that they all need to be forcefully dismantled in order for us to "be free," I have legitimate reason to fear for the safety of both Americans and Christians as well, and I continue to pray that you are able to restrain your overwhelming hatred and anger so that noone ever has to suffer as a result of your prejudices. This thread is full of people who actively have the desire to bring evil to Christianity, and it is quite shocking, yet I know that despite it all... people like you will never be able to defeat Christians, because their faith is more powerful than any violence you may wish to bring to them... they have survived almost 2000 years, and you aren't going to change that.

"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

9/04/10 8:54:50 AM#137
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by just1opinion

/beginning of non-post post

 

I post in almost any thread on the topic of the fundies or human rights. But I'm not in the mood to argue with zch (or w/e his name is) today, so....I'm just posting as one of the forum lesbians to show my support to the supporters in the thread.

Thank you to everyone who believes I have the right to equal happiness and misery under the law. Much appreciated. My partner and our three young adult children also thank you.  /hugs

 

/end of non-post post

After learning of your desire to bring harm to Christians who worship at the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian Church by means of terrorism, after having been shocked to see that you believe that the entire world is brainwashed by our governments and that they all need to be forcefully dismantled in order for us to "be free," I have legitimate reason to fear for the safety of both Americans and Christians as well, and I continue to pray that you are able to restrain your overwhelming hatred and anger so that noone ever has to suffer as a result of your prejudices. This thread is full of people who actively have the desire to bring evil to Christianity, and it is quite shocking, yet I know that despite it all... people like you will never be able to defeat Christians, because their faith is more powerful than any violence you may wish to bring to them... they have survived almost 2000 years, and you aren't going to change that.

 

The war is already over. Just a few mop up battles are left.

People under 30 years old overwhelmingly have no problem with gay people, gay rights, or gay marriage.

You're not going to be able to reverse that trend.

Older people are generally against gay rights.

But the baby boomers are getting old, and they will start to die in huge numbers, compared to people under 30.

The balance will shift, gay marriage will be legal in every state, as it should be.

My advice to gay people though, is you deserve the right to be treated equally. Fight for gay marriage. But don't do it!

Seriously the best way to do it, is get married in a Church, but dont' get legally married.

It's EASY to get legally married, and a LOT harder to get legally divorced.

If you MUST get married, then make sure your spouse works, and you better hope you both make close to the same pay, OR you better hope they never leave you.

Because if they do, and you make more money, or they dont' make much  compared to you, in most States, you'll be paying alimony and it will suck.

Not talking Child support here, you pay that married or not if you make a baby with someone or adopt a child, I'm talking Alimony.

Don't say I didn't warn you. Be careful what you wish for.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

9/04/10 9:33:04 AM#138

Zch,

 

If you continue to perpetrate lies about me on the forums, I will not delay in alerting my attorney.

Nowhere have I ever stated that I wished to "terrorize" the Church or the United States or any such thing. This is a serious accusation and I'm NOT playing with you here.

I am sending you this as a kind request that you cease and desist with your slanderous libel. I am also alerting the site owners. I do not expect to have any more trouble with you misrepresenting my wishes. If you persist with these slanderous personal attacks...I WILL seek legal action.

 

 

----------------------------

 

I am posting here the message I just sent to Zch.  I am serious about this and I am also contacting the owners of this site.  If you intend to portray me as a terrorist against the Church and the United States of America, you'd better expect you're stepping over a boundary that I will NOT tolerate.  This is libelous SLANDER. Terrorism is NOT a joke and accusation of such can bring terrible repercusions on people who have not done, nor intended, any such thing.  That is not a word you toss around lightly.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/04/10 9:57:34 AM#139
Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff
Originally posted by just1opinion

/beginning of non-post post

 

I post in almost any thread on the topic of the fundies or human rights. But I'm not in the mood to argue with zch (or w/e his name is) today, so....I'm just posting as one of the forum lesbians to show my support to the supporters in the thread.

Thank you to everyone who believes I have the right to equal happiness and misery under the law. Much appreciated. My partner and our three young adult children also thank you.  /hugs

 

/end of non-post post

After learning of your desire to bring harm to Christians who worship at the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Christian Church by means of terrorism, after having been shocked to see that you believe that the entire world is brainwashed by our governments and that they all need to be forcefully dismantled in order for us to "be free," I have legitimate reason to fear for the safety of both Americans and Christians as well, and I continue to pray that you are able to restrain your overwhelming hatred and anger so that noone ever has to suffer as a result of your prejudices. This thread is full of people who actively have the desire to bring evil to Christianity, and it is quite shocking, yet I know that despite it all... people like you will never be able to defeat Christians, because their faith is more powerful than any violence you may wish to bring to them... they have survived almost 2000 years, and you aren't going to change that.

 You seriously need mental help. I mean. wow. Your type is exactly what I targeted in my original post.

Just1opinion. Don't listen to his foolishness. His words are hollow and empty like his personality and social ties.

 

I pity you, Zch. You really are off the beaten trail. Off in your own little world.

No worries. Ill be sure sure to video log my first gay marriage at my church and let you see it. In the name of Christ, my Lord.

Amen.

Oh, in the meantime, ill let this video speak over your backwoods bigotry. Love is more beautiful then hatred. Too bad for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=GmPPFjKNyr8&feature=related

Welcome to the 21st century.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

9/04/10 10:06:34 AM#140
Originally posted by Enigma

Oh, in the meantime, ill let this video speak over your backwoods bigotry. Love is more beautiful then hatred. Too bad for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=GmPPFjKNyr8&feature=related

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

Would have been better with some hot nun on nun action instead. i'm just sayin'.

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