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9/03/10 7:27:44 AM#21
I have been a long long time EQ2 player and a player that always wanted to like VG but couldn't until recently. So that said...
Visual Thwoar
EQ2 - 7, only looks good up close and the engine is terrible
VG - 9, only AoC gives it a run for it splendor and personally VG looks crisper
EverQuest-ness
EQ2 - 5, not EQ redone
VG - 7, closer but still not the monster that is EQ
Game World
EQ2 - 5, years later still only couple douzen zones
VG - 9, varied and truly massive, think I counted 170+ zones
Player Character
EQ2 - 7, lots of options, not terribly meaningful
VG - 7, less options but completely different playstyles
Newbie Experience
EQ2 - 8, pretty much on rails and not terribly fun
VG - 8, more fun but parts are group which isn't always easy to do early on
Community
EQ2 - 6, very much a gated community
VG - 9, small pop, lots of vets, makes community more involved
Solo Experience
EQ2 - 7, 1-90 solo very doable, but nothing interesting along the way
VG - 7, 1-51 is soloable and more interesting 51+ raid only.
Group Experience
EQ2 - 7, good times to be had if you can stand the look of 10fps
VG - 9, good meaningful group content along the way to 55
Crafting & Other Pursuits
EQ2 - 10, plenty to do and its fun
VG - 5, umm no crafting and diplomacy just flat out depress me
End Game
EQ2 - 8, its there but is it ever gated
VG - 8, less to do on paper, less gated so about even
Fluff
EQ2 - 10, lots of pointless dev time spent here
VG - 5, not very fluff focused
On-Going Development
EQ2 - 7, it gets dev time but its awful slow and even years on kind of content short
VG - 5, bug fixes and bug fixes, but has 170+ zones at launch so...
Population
EQ2 - 5, most servers are low pop, 2 are capped, merger be coming I hope
VG - 5, merger came and went, low overall pop but all on one server so... good
EQ2 - 92
VG - 93
Here the thing though... where EQ2 shines I could care less but where it hurts I can't stand it. So when I finish SC2 its back to VG or maybe a stint in AoC but EQ2 is off my drive despite having capped toons and many year vet. VG is finally playable so the game I wanted to like this whole time is finally ready for launch.
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9/03/10 8:03:28 AM#22
O_o. Seriously, that's like comparing WOW and Asheron's Call 2. Vanguard was dead the day it was born, the game play reflects an old mantra that no one is interested in, and is perhaps one of the worst games ever released that managed to stay afloat more than a year after release. It should do the world a favor and die like MXO. Shadus |
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9/03/10 8:30:26 AM#23
I can't help but sense a strong Vanguard bias on the scoring. On features where Vanguard is a winner, you drop EQ2 to a 4, but when EQ2 is a clear winner - like On-Going development and population, vanguard still gets decent marks? WHAT development? EQ2 has massive updates every few months and a massive expansion at least once a year. Population? How can you even compare when Vanguard is nearly dead. Vanguard does win on a few of these counts (like immersion), but on pointsl like the two above it should be 10:1 in favour of EQ2.
Anyhow, it's easy to criticize and hard to deliver, so I'll provide my own opinions. (I've not played Vanguard for a while and never at endgame btw)
Visual Thwoar
EQ2 - 8 - despite being 6 years old, EQ2 is still one of the best looking games on the market. The combat animations are more fluid than in any game I've played, even AoC. The art design on EQ2 has always been really plain, so in this sense the game suffers. Stuff is done in high quality but is generally uninspired.
VG - 5 - Vanguard has some beautiful open areas and a few strokes of brilliance in art design of cities (Dwarven & Elven cities especially). However the character models look terrible and all the same and the combat animations are few and very choppy.
EverQuest-ness
I played eq1 for maybe 2 hours, so i don't feel right assigning a score here. .
Game World
EQ2 - 4 - eq2's game world is pretty terrible in terms of immersion. There is little to no interaction with the world and zones - while very large and diverse - have odd borders and are very theme-parky.
VG - 6 - Vanguard is a little better in terms of immersion, but at the same time the world is unnecessarily empty, travelling is not thought-through very well and the lack of instancing for it's own sake does nothing but create frustrations. There is still no interaction with the game world and it comes nowhere close to games like AO or SWG in terms of immersion or world feel.
Player Character
EQ2 - 7 eq2 has a few too many classes, which they've had to manage for a while and not always successfully.
VG - 8 i haven't played more than 2 classes in Vanguard, but some of the class choices (Bloodmage) were quite unique and interesting. However I've also heart some horror stories about other classes, still, I'll rank Vanguard a bit higher here.
Newbie Experience
EQ2 - original - 9, updated 9 (avg 9) - on launch EQ2 had a fantastic newbie experience with the newbie island having small and easy to digest examples of all types of things offered in the eventual game. It also made sense storywise and soon dropped you in a big city to continue exploration. Over the years the island experience was supplemented with other starting areas that helped lead players from 1-20 in a long soloable storyline that also geared the player out and taught skills as it went. More recently the island was removed altogether. Both newbie experiences are excellent in their own way, although some feel the new one holds hands too much, still for a game that has a minimal lowbie population, i think it's a good decision to create an experience that propels players to higher level asap.
VG - original - 10, updated 6 (avg 8) - when I played it launch, Vanguard's race-specific newbie experience was the best I'd ever had. Not only did it teach me to play, but it lead me carefully through combat, diplomacy, crafting and my race's place in the game's lore. It's was great. When i went to the game a year (or two?) later, this was gone, replaced by a generic "same for all" experience that immediately turned me off.
Community
EQ2 - 6 - the community isn't terrible and one some servers is a lot better than a 6. At the same time, it seems even the biggest fans of EQ2 harbour some resentment towards the game, its developers and everything else. The game's terrible immersion doesn't help foster community either.
VG - 8 - people who like it, like it a lot.
Solo Experience
EQ2 - 10, if you love to solo, you'll love EQ2. The majority of the 1-90 game has been revisited and updated to be soloable. This is done to make it easy to get up to the end-game and enjoy the grouping where the grouping is good.
Vanguard - 6, Soloing in vanguard I always felt like "really, i should probably have a group". It was also somewhat class-dependant. At the time I played, most group quests weren't really doable solo even if you were a bit higher level.
Group Experience
EQ2 @ 1-89 = 3, @ 90 = 10. There is plenty of stuff to group throughout the game. But the game is 6 years old, so the good stuff is at level cap. Once you get to the group stuff, it just doesn't get any better. I've not had better small group experiences in any other game. The group Instances have content for a wide variety of skill levels and there are fascinating encounters and great loot. The grouping is also more skill-based than time-based, in that any group dungeon can be done in an hour by skilled players. The folks with a lot of time on their hands will just run multiple dungeons.
VG - 8, Vanguard's lack of instancing and ill-conceived death mechanics made it extremely time-consuming and frustrating to group. If i only had two hours to play, i generally just didn't bother after a while. On those ocassions when I did have over two hours to spend and lucked into a good group, it was quite fun to dive deep into a contested dungeon. There was a time when EQ2 offered this same experience, but they unfortunately got away from it in the last 3 expansions.
Crafting & Other Pursuits
EQ2 - 5 crafting is boring and completely useless. there is lots of stuff to make though. yay for pretty bedside tables.
VG - 6 vanguard gets 6 for effort. diplomacy was one of the coolest ideas for a video game and nothing i've tried in other games made me ass anxious to read the next bit of NPC dialogue. unfortunately it was under-developed on its own and the developers never took the next step of tying it to other gameplay spheres (one day my raid will need to bring diplomats to a dungeon, one day!!!)
End Game
EQ2 - 10. awesome. easy to get into but hard to master (every idiot with a sword has raided SOMETHING, yet not guild worldwide has cleared everything - lots of inbetween). Friendly to all playstyles, rewarding and can be done on own schedule.
VG - 8 - honestly, i'll take people's word on this. I never got to VG endgame myself.
Fluff
EQ2 - 10 to quote another poster "lots of pointless dev time spent here"
VG - 5 i remember very little fluff in VG, but i guess diplomacy can be considered fluff and as far as fluff goes, it's awesome (just wish it was more than fluff)
On-Going Development
EQ2 - 10. EQ2 is constantly getting new stuff added, developers have recently comitted to adding a new zone quarterly and have been more or less on pace with it.
VG - 2 - well, it hasn't been cancelled yet, i guess that counts.
Population
EQ2 - 7 lowbie population is terrible and makes it hard on new people. endgame population is excellent on many servers with lots of guilds of different playstyles.
VG - 5 having less servers is good for those that play, but not for game overall.
"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity." |
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9/03/10 10:29:27 AM#24
Oh come on, crafting in EQ2 is approaching the absurd. one of the poorer crafting systems I have experienced. I can't imagine giving it a 9/10, maybe a 4 if I was generous. Only thing I could think of is that the OP has never crafted much in good crafting systems. You should get and play more before judging a craptastic system as being good. |
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9/03/10 11:11:33 AM#25
EQ2 is the "juggernaught" that is getting prepared for yet round another of server mergers and still trying to figure out what roles classes should play in the game. Vanguard is the little game that could..... have been something special if it was owned by a company that actually cared.
It is rather absurd to see so many ratings above 6 for two games that are years past their prime and shadows of their former selves. |
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9/03/10 1:19:30 PM#26
I figured VG would win this, although its good to see others enjoying the game. For the skeptics on VG just give the game a shot. |
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9/03/10 1:50:51 PM#27
I played EQ2 for many years and was involved in some of the beta testing for VG and must say that if Sigil had not dropped the ball and could have kept away from SOE that VG would have blown EQ2 out of the water. Once Sigil got in bed with SOE and SOE forced the launch of the game before the game was ready the game was doomed. Players are more and more not putting up with bad launches and games that have so many issues when the game goes live. All of the beta testers were against the launch and knew that it was a bad idea and voiced this fact but were ignored. One thing that I disagree with in the comparison between these 2 games is the fact that since SOE has taken over VG they have taken away just as many features as things they have tried to smooth out. One of the things that got low marks for VG was character customization and graphics, as soon as SOE had control they took away alot of the customization features that were in the game. If SOE put half as much effort into VG as they do with EQ2, VG would IMHO be the best offerring in the games they offer. One big thing that I have noticed is the fact that it seems lately that some of the scripted boss fights in EQ2 end game are copies of some of the things that were done in VG. The one that stands out the most is one of the boss fights in the Lavastorm instances were the Boss needs to be constantly moved because he drops bombs that you need to stay away from, this was done in VG in the spore boss in the flying mount questline in VG. As long as SOE is in control of VG it will probably continue to decline and they will continue to rob from it to add to EQ2 like flying mounts that they say are coming to EQ2 soon. Sadly it is a fact because if Sigil would have had their ducks in a row and not dropped the ball VG would have been one of the greats. |
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9/03/10 7:32:58 PM#28
Seriously how many servers and players does Vanguard even have anymore? Less then 10K subscribers and closing servers every year? Guess some people are in denial and have to continue beating the dead horse that is their holy grail game, rather then face the grim fact that vanguard was and still is a poor game thats time has passed. If you have fun with vanguard fine, have fun till they finally pull the plug, but please stop trying to tell the over 90% of players that have tried vanguard and left that its "Fixed" or "growing" Fun is subjective, but numbers are not and the numbers say Vanguard is Dying, and if very few are playing it, one would have to conclude that for most its not fun. Sure SOE could pump money into it, but while one can spray perfume on a turd, its still a turd. So throw good money after bad? |
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9/03/10 7:44:36 PM#29
Originally posted by Xionna Humm you mention character customization. On launch VG half giants had exactly 4 hair styles, so what your saying they now have 3 or less? Also reality check time. Brad blew all his investers money, then he blew Microsofts money, Finally he blew SOE's money for a MMO that was not ready as you say. So the game had no monmey and wasn't ready for launch what should they have done? maybe the US goverment should have bailed it out. Because it pretty unlikely the bill collecters would have just held off, and the employees would have all worked for free, on a MMO blew through over 50 million dollars and had crap to show for it. End the end it was Sigil (brad) that launched Vanguard not SOE, it wasn't till sevreral months later Brad sold off Vanguard to SOE. (you might want to check your facts sometime) At some point one has to understand investors are not willing to throw unlimited amounts of money into a endless pit that was/is vanguard. |
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9/04/10 4:56:01 AM#30
Originally posted by winter Brad McQuaid sold to SOE during closed beta, just an FYI. Shortly after launch is when they started nerfing the whole game and bastardizing it. During development there weren't as many SOE people working on it, but there were a decent amount. After they announced SOE fully took it over is when the nerfbat hit. They burnt through the money because they reimagined every continent numerous times and had to remake them (they used to be larger), which actually led to the third smaller continent. This was well before helmets were even in the game. All the money was spent on just getting the environment to work and classes/unreal engine. Brad McQuaid clearly did not understand development costs in the making, and you can't harp on the game for that. He tried to get the game as close to perfect as he can, but so soon after WoW every company just wanted an MMO right now instead of giving it the time and development costs necessary. He didn't understand modern costs, they just wanted a big name to throw at the WoW juggernaut. All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal. |
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9/04/10 3:01:09 PM#31
Originally posted by Ozmodan Back when I played EQ2 (before they made major changes to the game, dunno how it is now) the crafting system was top notch. I could go out and fight and gather materials, then go back to the city and craft for hours upon hours. I loved the EQ2 crafting system, there was an element of risk involved (it was rare, but you could lose all your materials,) and there was so many things you could do with so many different materials. Even a newbie could start crafting and feel like they were doing something productive, but it still took time and effort to become really good at crafting. There was even a separate XP bar for crafting. In all., the system was fun.
Which was one area I found WoW to be lacking. I went from EQ2's brilliant crafting system to the boring, worthless crap that WoW calls a crafting system. I was dissapointed. I've used crafting systems from all sorts of game, from EQ2 to WoW to LOTRO to City of Heroes' invention system to Fallen Earth's good crafting system and while some systems have come close (like Fallen Earth's,) I still think EQ2's was the best and most fun crafting system I've tried. 
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9/04/10 3:05:02 PM#32
'All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal. '
LOL
This game earned its reputation as a colossal disaster during the beta. Waterworld was better received than VG beta. And not just because of the bugs, the entire game was a disaster. Brad may have had his vision, but his programmers were more incompetent then the 1962 Mets. That said, I like Waterworld and the Mets won the world series seven years later. So it was a likable disaster with potential, but phenomenal is probably the direct opposite of how VG beta really was.
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9/04/10 3:07:51 PM#33
I think both crafting systems are horrendous. Why? Because leveling them is a boring grind. There is no fun at all, for me, in either system's leveling. However, both of them have very useful tradeskills. they might both be 9/10 in terms of crafting usefulness, but 2/10 in leveling.
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9/04/10 3:19:37 PM#34
Originally posted by teakbois As someone who played it, it was. It was extremely EQ feeling. Before any nerfs, before any of the handholding they had. It was updated EQ, which is exactly what I wanted it to be. The only bugs I ever had issues with were falling through the world rarely, teleporting into the boat dock (imagine titanic except...in a dock), and the enemies vanishing only to come running back at hyper speed. Though my friend died so many times while trying to get crafting recipes running through high level places that he couldn't gain xp anymore, which would have sucked it if happened to me, but it didn't. In beta everyone was pretty on board with it and really enjoyed it, it was when it was released and all they did was nerf it and do nothing with the bugs and still no flying mounts/helms/etc was when it got murdered. I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay. |
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9/04/10 3:24:57 PM#35
'I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay.'
I played during beta too. It was *NOT* vastly different than release. People were NOT 'on board' with it. Not sure if places like Silky Venom have archived forums, but if they do go back and poke around and refresh your memory.
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9/04/10 3:25:57 PM#36
Originally posted by OoMpAlOmPaZ I agree for all but the F*****EQ" part. Imo Vanguard is the best mmorpg out there atm, eq2 is also a good game but litele different from vg. I hope soe will take more things witth them from Vanguard then EQ2 when they set the world of Everquest Next. |
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9/04/10 3:59:33 PM#37
Originally posted by teakbois Everybody I played with enjoyed it and was having a blast. I still remember my first group, it was for the first dungeon in the Dark Elf area and I grouped with a guy from France. It brought back EQ memories so hard it almost hurt. A lot of people are QQbears about bugs and were acting like the game should have been spotless in closed beta, I don't count them because well....they're stupid. It was a huge game to begin with. When WoW came out, and especially in beta, it was one great big bugfest. The only reason they were able to fix some is because the game is literally sandbox sized as compared to the desert that was vanguard. People just seem to have no grasp on what actually goes into making a game and resort to calling people like the devs useless when they wouldn't know what to do in their shoes. |
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erictlewis
 Elite Member
Joined: 11/08/08
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results. |
9/05/10 8:37:14 AM#38
So I will have to disagree with a few things the op had to say. One being there is no pvp in eq2. We got 2 servers that have a very healthy population and that is all they do is pvp. Also we added battle grounds to the other servers, and I know a lot of folks who do pvp. PvP in eq2 is not my cup of tee, and if I want pvp I will go play counter strike or something like that. Now on to my second thing giving the population for vanguard a 5/10, Ahem, and 2 servers, I thought they had merged to one server, or that was the plans I read. That should have been a 1/10. I looked into vanguard and had actually played it during beta and for 3 months after it rolled out. You had to have a great rig to play it. It was bug ridden, and lagged badly. You would get near players and your fps would virtually drag to a crawl. The game lost a ton of players after the first three months. The one thing that can truly be said was for a long time that SOE totaly ignored vanguard, and now they are down to one dev. Vanguard is on life support, and it was even pulled off station access. It really is a shame it could have been a great game, but I think it had such a bad start, coupled with the soe has no support for it, that soon it will be a memory just like the matrix. |
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9/05/10 4:37:33 PM#39
Originally posted by erictlewis Much of what you point out also applies to EQ2. Most of the pvp servers have been closed, battlegrounds are heading to the backburner where they will be mostly ignored just as the previous pvp attempts. The majority of eq2 servers are heading for another round of server mergers, because populations are low. EQ2 was and in some cases is just as buggy and laggy as VG. Something always seems to be plaguing the game.
There really is a lot of similarities between both games and they make for a good comparison. Both have great potential and set out to be the successor to EQ1, but have been held back by various problems of similar natures. |
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9/05/10 8:30:13 PM#40
I miss VG... gonna talk my friend into resubing with me again! :D 
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