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Originally posted by Fadeus
thats ok, they are double billing now, have a gander...

http://www.realmsoftorment.net/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=19288

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It looks like the game is up for mourning fanboys. Read the mourning board everyone has been ripped off and the devs/mods refuse to make a statement. Sorrow, Dethesius and so many other fanboys finally seen the light( a little too late perhaps). Mabye they should have listen to the group bitey listed.....

Big news-
DAVE REFUSES TO CANCEL ORDERS AND GIVE ANY REFUNDS!

http://rot.webcohosting.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=19304

The forum mods over there seemed to abondon ship as well, I don't see a one. How anyone could beleive ANYTHING uttered out their mouths at this point bewilders me. Everything they spew out seems to be a lie in some form or another.

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Originally posted by Gunblade

Wow... I had no idea...

Thanks for the post, looks like I have another company to hate. I really wonder what it's employess are really thinking I mean if I worked there I would have left, that is just unfair.

You know they are getting a lot of bad cred lately is anyone even still thinking about playing this game. I remember 2 years ago, the game looked pretty cool. But now...bleh.

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You know this game sucks when the moderators can't spell, and their signatures were made in Microsoft Paint.

I hope this company gets screwed over big time.

There are only a few things you can do at this point. One is call your cc company tell them there was a mistake esepcialy for those billed multiple times. Do not assume all is well if you chose to cancle.

 Remember no news of a monthly fee has been addressed yet and then you have a hole new rounds of calls to make.

If you are that disatisfied call cc/ cancle ask for a charge back most are great as far as interent services go, then next step take it one step forward. Before the months end,

Please ask if you can get a new card with a new account number. That way no extra new charges from said company has a chance to continue to appear if you are not playing the product.

We had terrible experainces with i bill and Horizons it was only after cancleing the card re issuing another one with another account number did we finnaly get the montly charges long after we cancled to stop.

I do feel for the folks that pre ordered and was hoping all was well here and it was on the up and up, but when it comes to hard earned money you always have to be careful esepcaily with it possibly continuing ..........

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Originally posted by Bitey

wow- this reminds me of the old mmorpg.com mournning board.

Anyway, I would like to thank the people(before the mourning board went down) that questioned how legit and businesslike mourning was.

So thanks, DerfelCadarn, Fadeus, Harelin, Grunch, Bugman, Bilas, -Inferno-, Archais, Shurbber, and Razorback. And of course, thanks mmorpg.com and somethingawful.com!

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Ehhh, it's not as bad as all that. It IS pretty bad, mind - but not as bad as some folks want to think.

They billed (couple days early, I guess?), but the people billed have all already received the product (the devs said for a while now it would be download only, there is nothing being shipped). Everyone billed is in the beta; everyone billed already has the product they were billed for. So not as bad as it sounds, there.

As to the game condition... I can't really speak on that. But like I said on the Mourning forums: the only thing Mourning can do if you break your NDA is kick you out of beta, and maybe bar you from release. But so far, only a couple of ticked off people have elected to break their NDAs. That should tell you that MOST of the people in the beta still want to play the game, and don't want to get kicked out of it.

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Originally posted by Owyn
They billed (couple days early, I guess?), but the people billed have all already received the product (the devs said for a while now it would be download only, there is nothing being shipped). Everyone billed is in the beta; everyone billed already has the product they were billed for. So not as bad as it sounds, there.

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Yet even more cause to be concerned, because I'll quote...

"You are about to place a secure online pre order for Mourning with Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC! You will not be billed for your order until the product is shipped to you. You may cancel your pre order at any time."

and...

"Your pre-order for Mourning has been successfully charged, and will be shipped shortly. You will notice a charge of $29.95 on your credit card statement as Internet Services."

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but the people billed have all already received the product (the devs said for a while now it would be download only, there is nothing being shipped).

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You still want to pursue that line of reasoning?

cause they are total fanbois =/
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liking a game is one thing, but completely blinding yourself from its flaws. LET ALONE! the games creators is just stupid

Well I haven't been on this site for a bit, being busy with real life problems. But after reading this post, I dont feel so bad for being banned from the Mourning forums. Started asking questions about the game, and its progress 2 months before this all started, all my threads were deleted within 10 minutes of them being on the boards. After the 3rd deletion I was banned, and told I was not the kind of customer they wanted.

And now the ship is going down and the rats are abandoning ship. Makes me glad I set my sights on other games after my banning. Like they say in the military "Its totally FUBAR'ed".

Hmm ..

A couple of issues here:

1. Pre-ordering & billing of a product not fit for tender
Caveat Emptor, springs to mind. You cannot be scammed without your consent. I am not claiming Mourning to be an elaborate scam - I only pay scant attention to this MMOG - but potential players cannot say that they were warned that this might be a likely possibility. We have to assume that consumers act rationally (yes, I know, but work with me on this, ok?) and evaluate their purchases (price comparison, rival products, their own priorities, utility, etc) before they pay. In the MMOG world, this rational evaluation is largely based on faith (see point 2).

2. Hype
This is largely based on faith, unless someone has information isn't privy to the rest of us, and infects other MMOGs (most recently, DnL). Faith and hype walk hand in hand when players project their hopes and dreams onto a product, rather than opening their eyes and carefully scrutinizing the claims and evaluating whether the developers can deliver. The problem is that hype often becomes fanatacisim, and the True Believers will continue to proselytize the virtues of their game without any regard to criticism or flaws, no matter how valid. Oft backed up with daft, ridiculous claims about supporting the development of a MMOG comapny.

3. Licence to print money
The MMOG industry is like any other industry: in it to make a profit. These are not charities and are not deserving of your hard earned money unless they produce something that you want. Is it any wonder that a number of MMOGs go down the pan, or are rush released and are pitiful excuses for all of their potential and promised development. It's like the IT bubble all over again: we've seen heedy specuation and hype, money pouring in and now it's time for the bubble to burst, right? Despite E&B, Horizons, Wish, Warhammer, there are plenty of MMOGs in development because the market segment will support more games. Hopefully, what we will see is a maturation of the MMOG market, with the big boys (Blizzard and SOE) still shipping to their subscriber base, whilst other smaller but innovative companies start to take a slice of the share (CoH, EVE, for example) and will hopefully develop other products, made on the reputation of their previous ones.

It's a noble aspiration to wish to aid a fledgling developer but first, ensure that the product is there and is deserving both of your time and your money. The primary motivation of these developers, no matter how small, is to make a profit. If they can achieve that by making a polished product, then the market should reward them (in theory). Of course, they could release a turd and still make a profit (unlikely, but in this market, who knows?).

Just two words to remember: Caveat Emptor.

Regards,
Riotgirl

US law does not apply in Europe (Romania in this case), but if you used a credit card for pre-order you can dispute the charge (no product has been given/sold (not sure on legal name for it), "alpha"-testing is not a finished product. Compare to getting a car without a engine).

(Other laws apply in Europe but credit card companys have their own insurance against non-existing/faulty product billing).

Double-billing misstakes being added to the "sue-crazy-pr-guys"-issue does not look good for Mourning.

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Originally posted by JelloB2000
US law does not apply in Europe (Romania in this case), but if you used a credit card for pre-order you can dispute the charge (no product has been given/sold (not sure on legal name for it), "alpha"-testing is not a finished product. Compare to getting a car without a engine).

(Other laws apply in Europe but credit card companys have their own insurance against non-existing/faulty product billing).

Double-billing misstakes being added to the "sue-crazy-pr-guys"-issue does not look good for Mourning.

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Devs are based off in Romania, publishers in USA.

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Originally posted by Owyn

Ehhh, it's not as bad as all that. It IS pretty bad, mind - but not as bad as some folks want to think.

They billed (couple days early, I guess?), but the people billed have all already received the product (the devs said for a while now it would be download only, there is nothing being shipped). Everyone billed is in the beta; everyone billed already has the product they were billed for. So not as bad as it sounds, there.

As to the game condition... I can't really speak on that. But like I said on the Mourning forums: the only thing Mourning can do if you break your NDA is kick you out of beta, and maybe bar you from release. But so far, only a couple of ticked off people have elected to break their NDAs. That should tell you that MOST of the people in the beta still want to play the game, and don't want to get kicked out of it.

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Not as bad as it sounds???  What are you talking about???  It is as bad as it sounds!  Being billed for a product and not only not getting it but being billed twice!  Being told that you will not be charged until the product is shipped to you and it is only downloaded not shipped and then not being able to download it!  Being told straight out by the dev that this game is in Alpha/Beta and you are being charged because thats the way it is!

More and more....

Bad as it sounds not to mention all the probs with the game itself!  and not lifting the NDA after release???

Sorry but I have no empathy for anyone who doesn't inspect/research a product before giving them you CC info. Looking at houses on the internet. Would you give anyone your bank account routing number before you actually SEEN the house? Or inspected it? If you would I have a great idea for a MMO, send all cash(No checks accepted) to......

Updates: It seems as if Egomancer is on the board now, but refuses to comment on it. He just makes 1 poorly spelled sentence. Another update: You cannot cancel your preorder- they will not let you step out now. Again, a few HARDCORE fanboy are using the logic Harelin talked about- "I got stolen from, but at least I gave to a up and coming mmorpg company". Which is the same as "I got ripped off and beaten by a homeless person, but he needs the money more than me". Its stealing never the less......

Lastly, Ego made one comment which is:

 "We do not handle the charging and billing, we just develop the software.

As we stated some time beofre on these forums we were preparing to launch the game. To say that you did not know that we were going to launch it doesn't sound that good.

Anyway, all that we did was to charge the preorders, this does not mean that the game has been launched. The CDs still have to be shipped and this will take a week.

We will tell you when we launched the game officialy, but my estimation say somewhere between 1 week and 4 weeks.

Egomancer"

Damn can he make up his mind? It goes from download only to BOXed? Knowing the past, 4 weeks is a compete joke for a 30 dollars beta/alpha/game.

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Originally posted by Fraggle
As I understand it:-
1/ They have admitted that charging in advance was an administrative mistake and they should of charged on Monday when the game is released.
2/ The initial bugs people experienced (hanging/login problems, etc) have been fixed.
3/ Yes people are paying to play a beta product but this has been the same in many other games, eg. EQ2, SWG, SB, etc, etc..
And no I'm not in beta and haven't pre-ordered, I'm just hopeful this game will see the light of day as it's about time we got a decent mmorpg with meaningful pvp. SB didn't really cut it, Dragon Empires sunk without trace, DnL and Darkfall seriously delayed....
Personally I won't be parting with any cash until I start hearing good things, which is still a possibility!

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Excuse me? I did NOT pay to Beta EQ2, thank you. EQ2 was a finished and working product when it came out.

SWG? Same thing, it worked fine at release and had all the features that SOE had promised, and Beta was FREE.

Anyone who PAYS to play a BETA game is an idiot. From what I've heard from a friend who is in the Mourning beta it's nowhere near ready. It's less ready than AO was according to him. And no, he didn't pre-order.

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Originally posted by Bilas
Not as bad as it sounds??? What are you talking about??? It is as bad as it sounds! Being billed for a product and not only not getting it but being billed twice! Being told that you will not be charged until the product is shipped to you and it is only downloaded not shipped and then not being able to download it! Being told straight out by the dev that this game is in Alpha/Beta and you are being charged because thats the way it is!

More and more....

Bad as it sounds not to mention all the probs with the game itself! and not lifting the NDA after release???

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No one has been billed for a product they did not receive yet - everyone billed has the product. It was noted weeks ago that they would be using download for the product, instead of shipment. This alteration to the original agreement was well-documented. Don't forget that "shipping" can be used for electronic delivery as well as snail mail.

One guy got double billed, and I'm fairly sure they're working on resolving that issue.

The game isn't releasing for some time yet, so keeping the NDA up is still appropriate. You CAN have a game in beta that people have paid money to enter, you know.

No one's being charged monthly fees for the beta; they're being charged for their preorder of the game itself.

It's sketchy, and not well managed, but it's not as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be. That said, it IS sketchy enough that anyone who wanted out can almost certainly dispute the charges with their credit card company and get their money back without issues. So I fail to see where anyone has any real complaints - don't like it, get your refund from the CC company.

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Originally posted by Owyn

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Originally posted by Bilas
Not as bad as it sounds??? What are you talking about??? It is as bad as it sounds! Being billed for a product and not only not getting it but being billed twice! Being told that you will not be charged until the product is shipped to you and it is only downloaded not shipped and then not being able to download it! Being told straight out by the dev that this game is in Alpha/Beta and you are being charged because thats the way it is!

More and more....

Bad as it sounds not to mention all the probs with the game itself! and not lifting the NDA after release???

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No one has been billed for a product they did not receive yet - everyone billed has the product. It was noted weeks ago that they would be using download for the product, instead of shipment. This alteration to the original agreement was well-documented. Don't forget that "shipping" can be used for electronic delivery as well as snail mail.

One guy got double billed, and I'm fairly sure they're working on resolving that issue.

The game isn't releasing for some time yet, so keeping the NDA up is still appropriate. You CAN have a game in beta that people have paid money to enter, you know.

No one's being charged monthly fees for the beta; they're being charged for their preorder of the game itself.

It's sketchy, and not well managed, but it's not as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be. That said, it IS sketchy enough that anyone who wanted out can almost certainly dispute the charges with their credit card company and get their money back without issues. So I fail to see where anyone has any real complaints - don't like it, get your refund from the CC company.

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Can you read sir?

Lastly, Ego made one comment which is:

"We do not handle the charging and billing, we just develop the software.

As we stated some time beofre on these forums we were preparing to launch the game. To say that you did not know that we were going to launch it doesn't sound that good.

Anyway, all that we did was to charge the preorders, this does not mean that the game has been launched. The CDs still have to be shipped and this will take a week.

We will tell you when we launched the game officialy, but my estimation say somewhere between 1 week and 4 weeks.

Egomancer"

Damn, the pre-order fanboys and the admins cant make there mind up!> lmao, even if is download only- the admin admited you are paying 30 dollars for a alpha/beta! Its not even a damn game. So I get the deal- give them 30 dollars(which the promised not to do, and charaged randomly), wait 4 weeks(probaly more) for beta/alpha CDs. YOU GOT PUNKED!