Originally posted by uquipu
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EQ1 isn't gone. You can sub right now. Very few play it because it's not a good game.

 

The game has apparently changed quite a bit since it's heyday. In previous posts you have said that your first MMO was WOW (as was mine, sadly), so I find it strange that you can presume to advise people to try a dated +10 year-old game that you claim is not good. You weren't there for EQ, and neither was I.

Is Street Fighter II a bad game?

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by uquipu
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EQ1 isn't gone. You can sub right now. Very few play it because it's not a good game.

 

The game has apparently changed quite a bit since it's heyday. In previous posts you have said that your first MMO was WOW (as was mine, sadly), so I find it strange that you can presume to advise people to try a dated +10 year-old game that you claim is not good. You weren't there for EQ, and neither was I.

Is Street Fighter II a bad game?

 Street Fighter Alpha 2!! Damn I played that game like a madman in college. :D

to the OP, blame WoW

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by uquipu
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EQ1 isn't gone. You can sub right now. Very few play it because it's not a good game.

 

The game has apparently changed quite a bit since it's heyday. In previous posts you have said that your first MMO was WOW (as was mine, sadly), so I find it strange that you can presume to advise people to try a dated +10 year-old game that you claim is not good. You weren't there for EQ, and neither was I.

Is Street Fighter II a bad game?

 The game is still there yes, however the people that made it great are long gone. The biggest appeal to me looking back was the people that played it. This was before the era of 1337 speak, instances, auction houses, chuck norris and leeroy jenkins jokes, cash shops, hand holding quests, and more importantly the death of risk vs reward.

And the fact its still around and as I recall has had ongoing expansions tells me its at least a good game to some.

And yes, I do sound like an old man, that doesnt scare me, what does is that it was only 10 years ago that MMOs were inhabitated by a far different crowd than today, and every toon I see named "uberdarkninjakiller" just makes me feel even more out of touch with MMOs.

Originally posted by uquipu

 

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Originally posted by Arcken

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

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Originally posted by Arcken
Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.

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No, I rember in EQ1 where I wasted tons of my time on pointless activites to chase that elsuive "fun". As far as your retention of the world and lore, thats a persioanl issue, you may try reading things in games. You can Challanging games, with out intentional tedium and harsh punishments that do nothing but waste the users time. Games are entertainment, not jobs.
Skinner box abounds.

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 Actually what I remember most clearly is having met very good friends in eq1 that i had to cooperate with in order progress my character. We were a team at all times. It was a great social medium with a lot of challenge. Too bad most of the old school MMO'rs are gone and have been replaced with self entitled power gamers.

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EQ1 isn't gone. You can sub right now. Very few play it because it's not a good game.

 

Ultima Online is still around as well. Most players no longer play them because they are drastically different from their earlier days.

How about you and I plan to have this same conversation about Wow in six more years. Let's see if your fire for that game still shines as brightly.

All the complaining I've done to other gamers has finally found a home.  Thank you very much OP!

>>Lets face it, MMOs today are turning into single player console games with a chat box included.

>>Arcken's quote

 Pretty much sums it up. The variations are that most game developers are falling for the Monty Haul or "pull the lever get a prize" mentality of instant  gratification. Which I think appeals to younger and younger players, though later on they out grow that mind set of play when the sense of  "Challenge/Reward" grows dim to them. At first they love how they can get this and that, quickly , later on it pales and they just don't know why they aren't having as much fun as they once were.

 Take WoW as an example, Blizzard has repeatly over the past three plus years down graded in game challenges from start to finish, and its an on going process that just doesn't appear to have an end goal on their part. I know it's what finally drove me away from playing.  Will I give the expansion a try when it comes out? Sure, they aren't much money but I doubt I'll stay because the game simply does not have a good sense of risk/challenge to reward ratio. I feel that Blizzard is now targeting the 7 to 10 year old players. For that age bracket WoW is awesome, easy and intuitive to play and they can get anything they want with very little effort.  For an exxperienced gamer.....not so much.

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

>>Lets face it, MMOs today are turning into single player console games with a chat box included.

>>Arcken's quote

 

 Pretty much sums it up. The variations are that most game developers are falling for the Monty Haul or "pull the lever get a prize" mentality of instant  gratification. Which I think appeals to younger and younger players, though later on they out grow that mind set of play when the sense of  "Challenge/Reward" grows dim to them. At first they love how they can get this and that, quickly , later on it pales and they just don't know why they aren't having as much fun as they once were.

 

 Take WoW as an example, Blizzard has repeatly over the past three plus years down graded in game challenges from start to finish, and its an on going process that just doesn't appear to have an end goal on their part. I know it's what finally drove me away from playing.  Will I give the expansion a try when it comes out? Sure, they aren't much money but I doubt I'll stay because the game simply does not have a good sense of risk/challenge to reward ratio. I feel that Blizzard is now targeting the 7 to 10 year old players. For that age bracket WoW is awesome, easy and intuitive to play and they can get anything they want with very little effort.  For an exxperienced gamer.....not so much.

 

I think your going in the right direction but I wouldn't say its an age gap issue. I feel its more with the age and overall history with MMO's in general. Most players who've frequented EQ, Ultima, and other mmo's that followed before and around WoW weren't hugely impressed by what WoW offered. It was fun I admit and a polished well built game, but it wasn't something that hit most vet mmo players and made them fall in love for the most part.

Most players, both kids to adults as far as age 30 even, who form the fanboys of WoW had overall minor forays into mmo's in general. They were also the crowd least likely to understand the history of "challenge and reward" system as it existed before WoW. 

The instant gratification was easier to grasp for beginners into mmo's since it is mostly a console gaming experience; do this get that, simple, easy straightforward. I think my biggest worry though is that the instant gratification model is going to be more widely accepted more so do to WoW's dominance in the industry and its overall impact. While wasn't initially gratification, it did modify how rewards were doled out and they weren't as extensive, time and ppl consuming vs. other mmo's. 

Wonderful OP! I couldn't have said it better. I wish others would wise up. I don't really play any MMOs right now because of them becoming more and more like Walmart.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Like I said before, imagine how the world would be if we could all be great musicians, or pro ball players just by buying a pill that sped up the process. The whole point is that youve invested the time and effort to get there, thats the price you pay for greatness.

You seem to think that you've earned the right to be great without working for it.

Equating playing video GAMES with greatness is just SILLY. Video games are ENTERTAINMENT, NOT pro  sports. People don't like to have their entertainment like a job. You don't require a PhD to understand a movie (and those do never have that big of a box office) for the same reasons.

You don't earn "rights" for anything in a video game. It is designed to give the player a fun time. Downing the LK is fun, and it gives an illusion of achievement. Please don't equate that with writing a scientific paper, or winning the NBA.

People have different ideas of what "fun" is.

Some people like putting effort into something, and the more effort they put in, the more gratifying the result is. In part of this, the actual act of effort is a large part of the enjoyment.

Hobbyists, such as say model builders, derive enjoyment and pride out of assembling and painting models. The act of working to put it together and paint it is where much of the enjoyment comes from, and a lot of that pays off upon completion of the effort invested. To them, simply being given, or buying a completed model, isn't nearly as enjoying, or meaningful, as if they put it together themselves.

And that's what many of the "old school" gamers are. They're hobbyists, on top of being gamers. They don't want everything to be mind numbingly straightforward and easy. They don't want everything to be handed to them. Why? Because then the "accomplishments" mean very little. They want to enjoy a good challenge.

The other camp, which is a growing number of the new MMO gamers, care more about the ends. They want to blaze through the actual game to get to the carrot at the end of it. They more often than not don't care how they get there, so long as they get there, and fast. The sad irony of it is, that when a game is very easy to progress in, then everyone is "powerful". And when everyone is powerful, then noone is powerful. If anyone can level to max level, and then quickly and easily deck out their character in epics, then what sense of accomplishment is there when you just did what anyone with half a brain and a credit card can do?

Originally posted by Arcken

Remember in eq1 when you were actually proud of your character? You had to work at it, now everythings so easy I forget the names of my characters a week after i drop an MMO.

Yes, yes, YES! I DO remember those times. Took year to get to max lvl, and then 1,5 yrs to get my fighter that Blade of War from Rallos Zek. God which popped only once per week and that spawn was shared to ALL players on server, no instances for every raid. And from those 52 RZs killed in year not every time drop that sword. Guilds are fighting and making deals to get raid and when one at last got that thing - that was achievment. Now for every group his instance, his god or ybah dragon and "market" is overeflown with "unique items" which arn't unique anymore in any terms.

I remember Veeshan's Peak where only few and brave raids went cuz once entered no way back - only kill thru or lost all ya equipment in zone. No zone out, no port out. That was thrill ya never meet in now-a-day MMOs. Death penalty made ya think twice before  acting, now in LOTRO I used " death-lift" when lazy to run out from dungeon after raid win I jump to lava or poison lake and get in sec to outside's safe point. Waht means those few % lowered stats for 10 mins? What means those few silver to repair equipment when I grab such a gold I have nothing to do with.

All this is like play Doom with IDKFA & IDDQD :) No adventure any more, left for us is babysitting themeparks.

Answer to the thread topic is as simple as you could assume: Ever since the impatient kids in WoW started to whine about stuff being hard for solo players (which MMO's were never meant to be about in the first place) and Blizzard giving into every crying kids demands. Afterwards they haven't been the same again and probably never will.

Very interesting and FUN new MMO for every casual insta grat looker:

1) Ya log into yar new F2P game

2) Ya choose yar name (if prohibited by rules, throw cash and rules change)

3) Ya enter yar world's cash shop

4) Ya buy Potion of InstaLeveling (10 USD for each 10 lvl, no upper limit)

5) Ya buy yar Armor-set (10 USD for each +1 defence, no upper limit)

6) Ya buy yar Yber-L33t-Sword-of-Yberness (10 USD for each +1 damage, no upper limit)

7) Ya buy yar Token of Insurance Against Meeting Somebody Who Is Higher Lvl Than Ya for 1000 USD

8) Step into world and start impudent over those not-having-so-many-$$$ and start to grind poor noobs.

9) Stay instantly gratificated for ever.

10) Die with happy stupid smile on face.

Originally posted by Luczifer

Very interesting and FUN new MMO for every casual insta grat looker:

1) Ya log into yar new F2P game

2) Ya choose yar name (if prohibited by rules, throw cash and rules change)

3) Ya enter yar world's cash shop

4) Ya buy Potion of InstaLeveling (10 USD for each 10 lvl, no upper limit)

5) Ya buy yar Armor-set (10 USD for each +1 defence, no upper limit)

6) Ya buy yar Yber-L33t-Sword-of-Yberness (10 USD for each +1 damage, no upper limit)

7) Ya buy yar Token of Insurance Against Meeting Somebody Who Is Higher Lvl Than Ya for 1000 USD

8) Step into world and start impudent over those not-having-so-many-$$$ and start to grind poor noobs.

9) Stay instantly gratificated for ever.

10) Die with happy stupid smile on face.

Damn you sure do like to exaggerate. If most casuals wanted that not even wow would have a player base anymore.

yea lol but in some cases thats almost true and its sad but you will always have players who dont want to spend there money to get the items they want and you wil always have players who do so i think it balances out with the people who do and dont WoW doesnt have a in game money item shop place and yet they have many players but thats just WoW thats my opionion :)

Originally posted by Ceridith

People have different ideas of what "fun" is.

Some people like putting effort into something, and the more effort they put in, the more gratifying the result is. In part of this, the actual act of effort is a large part of the enjoyment.

Hobbyists, such as say model builders, derive enjoyment and pride out of assembling and painting models. The act of working to put it together and paint it is where much of the enjoyment comes from, and a lot of that pays off upon completion of the effort invested. To them, simply being given, or buying a completed model, isn't nearly as enjoying, or meaningful, as if they put it together themselves.

And that's what many of the "old school" gamers are. They're hobbyists, on top of being gamers. They don't want everything to be mind numbingly straightforward and easy. They don't want everything to be handed to them. Why? Because then the "accomplishments" mean very little. They want to enjoy a good challenge.

The other camp, which is a growing number of the new MMO gamers, care more about the ends. They want to blaze through the actual game to get to the carrot at the end of it. They more often than not don't care how they get there, so long as they get there, and fast. The sad irony of it is, that when a game is very easy to progress in, then everyone is "powerful". And when everyone is powerful, then noone is powerful. If anyone can level to max level, and then quickly and easily deck out their character in epics, then what sense of accomplishment is there when you just did what anyone with half a brain and a credit card can do?

And this is what is killing games for the hobbyists, because they can not compete unless they speed through the game to get to the same levels as the ones who do...which completely defeats the whole reason they are playing.  

I, like many of the other "old school" gamers, am just about ready to give up on MMO's.  It's just too hard to find like-minded people playing anymore.  

Originally posted by SuperXero89

In the days of Everquest I always used to say that the gameplay found in MMOs was fun for a short time, but the reason people stuck around so long was the community.  Now that game developers have focused more on improving aspects of gameplay rather than aspects of the community, for better or worse, the opposite is in effect.

I still don't think this lends to games tending to the "instant gratification crowd" because I don't believe there is such a crowd.  As I explained earlier, video games are for fun.  They're nothing more than a hobby, which in an of itself, is just a form of escapism.  Many gamers are working teenagers, college students, or fully grown adults with full time jobs and a family to take care of.  These gamers "work" enough in the real world, and the last thing they want to do is "work" inside of a video game.  The problem with a lot of the older MMORPGs is that they were nothing more than grinds.  When you strip away the community --the human element-- you're left with a shell of a game world with little else to do than to go out and grind mobs for hours on end for no other purpose than to level up your character to grind on even stronger mobs.  The communities of games like UO, DAoC, and Everquest quite literally made the game.

Modern MMORPGs have done a way with a lot of the tedium of the previous generation of MMORPGs, and I think that's where a lot of the "instant gratification" rhetoric originates, but I challenge those who promote that ideology to actually come up with some examples of said instant gratification.  Sure, games have gotten easier, but that's just a sign of the times.  Games were getting easier and easier long before Everquest and UO were the kings of the MMORPG market.  Ironically, we had a similar crowd crying over games being too easy back then just as we do now, but the fact is, while games have had a lot of the challenge and tedium removed, there still isn't an "instant gratification" game, and there's challenge in every game if you know where to look for it.  A good case in point is World of Warcraft. Like the guy in the video I linked said, getting gear still requires a time commitment and isn't really any "easier" than it ever was.  In fact, it may even be harder when you consider how easily a few poor players could get lost in the shuffle of 38 other skilled players in one of vanilla WoW's original 40 man raids.  It was much easier to slack off and to not perform when you had so many people to make up for your lack of effort.  In current WoW's 25 man raids, this is evident as well.  In raids like the Blood Council, there may be 8 other ranged DPS classes around you to keep the orbs from hitting the floor whereas in 10-man there may only be one more, which probably can't prevent all the orbs from dropping on his or her own.

The badge system is yet another instance of how WoW has been made a bit more casual but not so much easier. Now, every time you kill a boss in a raid, you get "something" of value even if it's just a few frost badges.  Those frost badges can then be turned in for raid quality gear.  It's far less time consuming and less tedious, but it still fosters a sense of accomplishment. In essence, you still have to work for what you get.  Nothing is handed to you on a silver platter.  It takes dedication and effort to get that gear.  The only difference is that in vanilla WoW it took a bit more dedication and a bit more effort.  Vanilla WoW was not any more difficult than current WoW.  The sooner those who cry "instant gratification" realize that dedication and effort do not equal difficulty, the sooner we might start working towards some theoretical alternative to the carotte on a stick dog and pony shows that are modern MMORPGs.

Here are some points why I think WoW actually has become much easier:

• Instance running  up to level 80 including heroic instances has turned into AoE bombing feasts. Many players are complaining that Blizz has oversimplified things a bit too much and that instances except high level raids have become boring. Blizz even admitted this and they're going to address this in Cataclysm.
• Due to the low low-level population Blizz has removed almost every elite-zone in the old content, like the orcs in Redredige or the castle in Arathi highlands. For the single player who wishes to level up this was a good move. But community-wise it was a bad move imho. And does really every inch of the map have to play solo player friendly? I think not.
• Many raid leaders complain they have a hard time finding skilled players. Because the skill gap between up to level 80 and high end raid instances is just too big.

These old stories are great, whether its corpse running through lguk (which btw, I camped the ghoulbale for 27 hours straight once) or getting the infamous blade of zek. Those were memories that other games these days do not generate.

Originally posted by sdeleon515

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

>>Lets face it, MMOs today are turning into single player console games with a chat box included.

>>Arcken's quote

 

 Pretty much sums it up. The variations are that most game developers are falling for the Monty Haul or "pull the lever get a prize" mentality of instant  gratification. Which I think appeals to younger and younger players, though later on they out grow that mind set of play when the sense of  "Challenge/Reward" grows dim to them. At first they love how they can get this and that, quickly , later on it pales and they just don't know why they aren't having as much fun as they once were.

 

 Take WoW as an example, Blizzard has repeatly over the past three plus years down graded in game challenges from start to finish, and its an on going process that just doesn't appear to have an end goal on their part. I know it's what finally drove me away from playing.  Will I give the expansion a try when it comes out? Sure, they aren't much money but I doubt I'll stay because the game simply does not have a good sense of risk/challenge to reward ratio. I feel that Blizzard is now targeting the 7 to 10 year old players. For that age bracket WoW is awesome, easy and intuitive to play and they can get anything they want with very little effort.  For an exxperienced gamer.....not so much.

 

I think your going in the right direction but I wouldn't say its an age gap issue. I feel its more with the age and overall history with MMO's in general. Most players who've frequented EQ, Ultima, and other mmo's that followed before and around WoW weren't hugely impressed by what WoW offered. It was fun I admit and a polished well built game, but it wasn't something that hit most vet mmo players and made them fall in love for the most part.

Most players, both kids to adults as far as age 30 even, who form the fanboys of WoW had overall minor forays into mmo's in general. They were also the crowd least likely to understand the history of "challenge and reward" system as it existed before WoW. 

The instant gratification was easier to grasp for beginners into mmo's since it is mostly a console gaming experience; do this get that, simple, easy straightforward. I think my biggest worry though is that the instant gratification model is going to be more widely accepted more so do to WoW's dominance in the industry and its overall impact. While wasn't initially gratification, it did modify how rewards were doled out and they weren't as extensive, time and ppl consuming vs. other mmo's. 

     I agree with your points, I just personally feel that at times that Blizzards game plan "is" to market to a very young player.  I think you are correct that  I really should have said that they were aiming towards a "new to the genre" player, where everything did come off as fresh, intutative and fun. I also hope that Blizzard and other companies for that matter don't make this "the standard" business model for game design.  Actually I'd love to see some game designer(s) push the envelope and design more thought required/challenging games again. A company like Blizzard who has a large on going money generator could afford to have a "smaller" money genning game that appeals to the veteran game player who wants and expects more from a game than the instant gratification flash/fluff that has become the norm.

  Honestly though I dont think that will happen based on what I have seen over the past twenty years online. Most companines take the easy way out to give players what the "thinks" they want and to the widest audience possible. In order of course to make money, because we can't forget that these companies are indeed...companies. They do want to turn a profit, put food on their own childrens table etc. I can't blame them for wanting to secure their present and future. I do wish though that we'd see more of what we've all mostly been talking about.

Originally posted by Fusion

Answer to the thread topic is as simple as you could assume: Ever since the impatient kids in WoW started to whine about stuff being hard for solo players (which MMO's were never meant to be about in the first place) and Blizzard giving into every crying kids demands. Afterwards they haven't been the same again and probably never will.

See^..  truth

But people who started with WoW don't see how WoW and their own ignorance ruined the MMO space with the incessant complaining and dumbing down of the entire genre', not just WoW.

What many WoW Players don't even realize, is that even games like Everquest and DAOC where changed after 5~6 years of running, after WoW massive success. Everquest, DAOC, SWG, etc.. all started getting easier, with more "perks" & "hand outs" and dumbed down mechanics when both SOE & Mythic lost their minds & went after the WoW players.

Everquest was nearly ruined as they tried to copy WoW success of making easy game... but all they actually did was alienate their own core players who could no longer stand their fav game.

These developers ruined their own games, in hopes of luring subs from WoW. With it, came all the incessant complaining that is still prevelaint on almost any forum you goto.

That is why a good many oldscool players are on the fence waiting for a developer to bring back challenging game play & have high disdain for these people who think every game, now has to be like WoW and are perpetuating this insanity. .

Everthing since WoW has to be a themepark, because it is all the new MMO space knows (ie: newbies)... because some 16 million players no nothing other than themepark.