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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PvE without a Tank System/Mechanics is simply a Zerg Fest! Prove me wrong otherwise

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117 posts found
  Fishbaitz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/27/10
Posts: 232

Skepticals, the glasses that automatically make you a skeptic!

8/09/10 12:38:56 PM#41
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
Originally posted by mCalvert

Overwhelming force is a succesful combat tactic as old as war. And consider that real life has no such thing as a "tank" in the mmo sense. Thats because real life is not a stupid AI which attacks based on a manufactured threat number. Hence why tanks in PVP are useless. Your opponent simply avoids you and kills all your friends first, then targets all the DPS on the tank.

 LIES

You're tank just got destroyed by a mob, get some better gear, dipshit!

 

@OP. You're funny. GW worked without tanks just fine, in fact, the more prone to surviving damage you were, the less likely the AI was to attack you.

  twstdstrange

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/10
Posts: 485

8/09/10 12:52:04 PM#42
Originally posted by Fishbaitz
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
Originally posted by mCalvert

-

 LIES

-

 

 

Hello, I am CC.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5983

 
OP  8/09/10 1:08:18 PM#43
Originally posted by Fishbaitz
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
Originally posted by mCalvert

Overwhelming force is a succesful combat tactic as old as war. And consider that real life has no such thing as a "tank" in the mmo sense. Thats because real life is not a stupid AI which attacks based on a manufactured threat number. Hence why tanks in PVP are useless. Your opponent simply avoids you and kills all your friends first, then targets all the DPS on the tank.

 LIES

You're tank just got destroyed by a mob, get some better gear, dipshit!

 

@OP. You're funny. GW worked without tanks just fine, in fact, the more prone to surviving damage you were, the less likely the AI was to attack you.

GW was still a zerg fest PvE combat.

 

Show me a game that doesnt have Tank mechanics that isnt a zerg fest.

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

8/09/10 1:12:41 PM#44

Tanks are fine, anyone to try defend the group or his teamates by soaking up damage is fine by my book. However, what I really hate are the artificial threat and aggro mechanics in games like taunt. Utilize other tactics such as body blocking, kiting, and general control is much more interesting than a threat based mechanic.

If you want to call this zerging than so be it. It is so much more interesting than having one person sit there and use threat with taunt to keep all of the mobs attention.

  dirtyjoe78

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 407

8/09/10 1:31:02 PM#45
Originally posted by twstdstrange
Originally posted by Fishbaitz
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
Originally posted by mCalvert

-

 LIES

 

 

 

Hello, I am CC.

 Hello CC i'm ranged DPS welcome to the party and FUUUUUUUUU

  User Deleted
8/09/10 1:34:42 PM#46

Of course, but to a point. The kinds of combat you have in MMOs are short engagement, where a zerg usually wins. Definetly in long battles can tactics overcome or outlast. You also have to consider that most MMOs dont have gurilla warfare mechanics. Its designed towards frontal assault, where both sides have equal individual damage capability (everyone is same class with same gear, etc).

Eve online is probably the best example. They have tanks, but in PVP they die at the end. You kill all its support and the tank goes down.

  twstdstrange

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/10
Posts: 485

8/09/10 1:35:29 PM#47
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
Originally posted by twstdstrange
Originally posted by Fishbaitz
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
Originally posted by mCalvert

-

 LIES

 

 

 

 

Hello, I am CC.

 Hello CC i'm ranged DPS welcome to the party and FUUUUUUUUU

 

U mad?

  User Deleted
8/09/10 1:36:42 PM#48
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by vi2023ly

I really like idea of what they're trying to do with GW2, although I'm not sure they can pull it off.

The tank's one and only job is to control the encounter.  The healer's one and only job is to support his allies.  These two jobs are very much mandatory and often thankless (leading to a major shortage of pug tanks and healers in some games, who wants to be called a drama queen because they decided to make group play the cornerstone of their gameplay experience, or told they're not qualified to assist you because some arbitrary number is too low?)

Then you have everyone else who gets to use a variety of interesting abilities to make the enemies die and assist the tank and healer with control and support as necessary (the latter being much more important in some games than others).  The theme I see in a lot of the upcoming MMOs is to take the job of control and support and spread them around to everyone.  In theory this sounds great and will be - for people who already play tanks and healers.  They finally get to actually kill things while helping their groupmates in critical group-oriented roles; it's like having your cake, and eating it too.

But I'm not entirely sure this is actually what the majority of people want.  In every MMO I've ever played it's always been the most self-reliant, highest-DPS, least-group-utility classes that end up being the most popular.  Many people simply refuse to fill a critical group role, even if they theoretically could do so.  I'm not sure a game that forces everyone, regardless of what class they rolled, to have an equal share of group responsibility would be well received by the larger MMO community.

 

You forgot Crowd Control.

If you can do good crowd control, that's a way to control the encounter as well, with mez, stun, snare, sleep, etc.

True, but in a way this just reinforces my point.  Crowd control has been declining in importance since the days of EQ1, because people for whatever reason just couldn't do it.  So the responsability of controlling the fight that used to be more-or-less shared between the tank and the CC (who were also DPS) shifted more and more onto the tank.  Again, some games emphasize CC more than others (it's not used at all in WoW except in special situations, but even my pug groups in LOTRO do their best to CC tough pulls without being prompted) but it's impossible to deny that it's importance has declined across the board.

Like I said, I don't know if putting the responsability for control & support on everyone instead of just a couple of people will work out or not, but I'm interested in seeing how it turns out.  My main concern is where the threshold of failure will be - there's tons of people who can't do anything more advanced than spam a rotation, right now they roll DPS  as a class that's not expected to do anything other than that and they're OK, for the most part.  If these same people suddenly have to improve their game to get any groups because they keep wiping everyone I think they'll go play some other game than stick around and figure it out.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3285

8/09/10 2:33:29 PM#49

vi.. you are correct.. Class roles are deminishing with each new game it appears.  MMO's like EQ1 that had a variety of roles to play changed into this lazy mans holy trinity.. Heal, Dps and Tank..  IMO, that is the simplest form of group play besides just having everyone be classless and just dps.. CC in WoW for example was just too difficult for the masses.. Too many just couldn't do it effectively..  Too many broke sheep, or the hunter couldn't lay his trap down right, all of which caused many groups to whipe frequently..  So to make the game EASIER  ( more profit ) Blizzard started nerfing roles left and right so everyone is equal, and the difficulty dropped..

Is the holy trinity great? or bad?  It all depends on your style of play.. I like variety and complexity.. To me filling 1 of 3 roles is less fullfilling then 1 or 6.. or moreso..  and combat in so many games is just a zergfest.. If you can kill a mob in under 10 seconds, it's too fast.. Hell.. My mage in WoW was my farmer.. The fighting was so easy, it wasn't even a challenge.. EVER..

PS.. I also hated insta heals or insta mana after a fight by eating or drinking.. What a joke..

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5520

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

8/10/10 12:52:45 AM#50
Originally posted by MMOExposed
 

GW was still a zerg fest PvE combat.

 

Show me a game that doesnt have Tank mechanics that isnt a zerg fest.

If you want to insist that GW's PvE was a zergfest, it is your loss. I found it to be far more interesting than your average MMO combat. Surprisingly, the lack of tank did not feel like a mindless zergfest but actually made people think more and concentrate more on the engagement. In some ways the combat plays like it is in PvP where there isn't any tanking. People have to use proactive means to defend themselves, not just soak and heal incoming damage.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Nailzzz

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/08
Posts: 489

8/10/10 2:40:18 AM#51
Im sorry but is this just a troll attempt? How can you zerg in a game where max party size was 8 (occasionally 12)? You just lost all credibility in this topic with this statement.
Originally posted by MMOExposed
GW was still a zerg fest PvE combat.

 

Show me a game that doesnt have Tank mechanics that isnt a zerg fest.

  Evile

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/09
Posts: 543

8/10/10 2:43:38 AM#52

Just because the fact someone even thinks such a thing as you can't stray from the same tired tank/bla bla format you can't have interesting combat is a pretty bad display of the common mentality of the MMO consumer.

We all wonder why devs just rehash wow.

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

8/10/10 3:07:39 AM#53
Originally posted by Evile

Just because the fact someone even thinks such a thing as you can't stray from the same tired tank/bla bla format you can't have interesting combat is a pretty bad display of the common mentality of the MMO consumer.

We all wonder why devs just rehash wow.

 I find the typical tank and spank fight absolutely horrible. I don't understand how people can continue to like that sort of thing time after time.

Almost everyone seems to have played WoW. I'll give an example of my probably my favorite "boss" battle there. There is an instance there called Magisters Terrace. The third boss encounter there was Priestess Delrissa. Now what made this fight interesting was that she had 4 random mini bosses with her that different abilities. The other aspect of the fight was that there was no threat table. So in essence it resembled more like a pvp fight than a pve one. For appropriate geared players you had to us abilities that most don't ever use in pve. I loved the fight but it seemed most people absolutely hated it. I assume because it was out of the norm of the tank and spank scripted fight that almost everything else in the game was. So it was out of their comfort zone. Interestingly enough (although not surprising), the folks that liked the battle the most were pvpers.

This is how encounters should be, unpredictable. Give the npcs you fight some intelligent AI. You don't need to buff up the enemy with huge amounts of health and that can strike for a billion damage. Make them smarter and then you don't have to have tanks.

  ryuga81

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 353

8/10/10 4:51:30 AM#54

I'd really like to see what CME had in mind with their Stargate MMO, they were experimenting with the concept of cover and positional combat instead of the "holy trinity", pity the whole thing came to a halt :/

I'd play a game where "tank" is anyone providing suppression fire from a cover (while their allies outmaneuver the enemy on the flanks), rather than someone determined by its class.

  Malevil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/10
Posts: 471

8/10/10 5:07:33 AM#55

I'm realy looking forward to GW2. Whole holy trinity always seemed retarded to me. So you fight that uber boss at the end of dungeon and he is fighting like total moron... like hitting target with highest dmg mitigation and hp and ignoring squishy tiny healer behind him ... If this is the pinacle of design, then we are all bunch of retards.

In PvP this doesnt work, and i dont see why PvE mechanics couldnt be closer to what like PvP is.

  User Deleted
8/10/10 6:08:20 AM#56
Originally posted by Malevil

I'm realy looking forward to GW2. Whole holy trinity always seemed retarded to me. So you fight that uber boss at the end of dungeon and he is fighting like total moron... like hitting target with highest dmg mitigation and hp and ignoring squishy tiny healer behind him ... If this is the pinacle of design, then we are all bunch of retards.

In PvP this doesnt work, and i dont see why PvE mechanics couldnt be closer to what like PvP is.

The way I see it with Guild Wars 2 is that in the end, you'll still just end up bum rushing the mob with a healer CCer and DPS, so instead of tank and spank you get you get control the crowd. 

 

In short replacing one role with another is not what I would call innovation.

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3142

Veni, Vidi, Converti

8/10/10 6:33:17 AM#57
Originally posted by Snaylor47
Originally posted by Malevil

I'm realy looking forward to GW2. Whole holy trinity always seemed retarded to me. So you fight that uber boss at the end of dungeon and he is fighting like total moron... like hitting target with highest dmg mitigation and hp and ignoring squishy tiny healer behind him ... If this is the pinacle of design, then we are all bunch of retards.

In PvP this doesnt work, and i dont see why PvE mechanics couldnt be closer to what like PvP is.

The way I see it with Guild Wars 2 is that in the end, you'll still just end up bum rushing the mob with a healer CCer and DPS, so instead of tank and spank you get you get control the crowd. 

 

In short replacing one role with another is not what I would call innovation.

That still sounds preferable to me.

Tanks exist because of health bars. A tank has a larger health bar in effect (for simplicity's sake). This then leads to a Healer who tops up that bar and then of course DPS.

Now, remove that mechanic where the number of hits on the health bar is replaced with CC or "control" options and suddenly it's more subtle because for CC you have to rework where you are standing and get the timing right so someone can get the first and hardest hits in.

It should also "feel" better. If you take a few silly blows you should take serious damage.

Well, we hope to find out more with the vids, but this is partly what I hope the shift from: Tank-Healer-DPS to Control-Support-Damage leads to.

Really tho, a dedicated healer class was worse than the tank, but I hope both change. At least with the DPS, you get some shots off first and the right ones, you have a chance of out-doing the oppy which employs a lot more tactics and gameplay imo as per FPS concerning context and anticipation more than just power of stats.

  Antipathy

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/06
Posts: 1371

8/10/10 7:13:21 AM#58

What about the big bad, the solo boss that's supposed to scare you, and is supposed to be difficult. The giant. The dragon. The titan. The Demon. The Lich?

There's only one of them, but they're big, they're mean, and they're very dangerous.

What would an encounter look like with a big boss if there was no tanks around?

If the big boss could be stun locked, or kited, then he's really not very scary, and the encounter becomes trivial. So crowd control destroys the intent of the encounter.

If every single player in the raid is capable of surviving being attacked by the big boss, then, once again, the boss isn't very scarey. If just feels intuitively wrong that a puny mage could walk away after being bitten by a dragon.

And if some players can take the hits from the big bad end guy and some can't, then you're left with a tank and spank system, with the players who can take the hits being the tanks.

In other words, it seems to me that if you get rid of tank and spank mechanics, you are also get rid of the concept of the big bad end guy, which to me would be a serious loss, since the game would lose a large amount of the excitement and romance of the genre.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3285

8/10/10 7:49:57 AM#59
Originally posted by Antipathy

What about the big bad, the solo boss that's supposed to scare you, and is supposed to be difficult. The giant. The dragon. The titan. The Demon. The Lich?

There's only one of them, but they're big, they're mean, and they're very dangerous.

What would an encounter look like with a big boss if there was no tanks around?

If the big boss could be stun locked, or kited, then he's really not very scary, and the encounter becomes trivial. So crowd control destroys the intent of the encounter.

If every single player in the raid is capable of surviving being attacked by the big boss, then, once again, the boss isn't very scarey. If just feels intuitively wrong that a puny mage could walk away after being bitten by a dragon.

And if some players can take the hits from the big bad end guy and some can't, then you're left with a tank and spank system, with the players who can take the hits being the tanks.

In other words, it seems to me that if you get rid of tank and spank mechanics, you are also get rid of the concept of the big bad end guy, which to me would be a serious loss, since the game would lose a large amount of the excitement and romance of the genre.

It would look like the cave troll fight in Lord of the Rings..  Trust me when I say that Frodo wasn't tanking.  The whole fight looked like a FFA .. which was awesome.. LOL  During the whole epic story of LoTR, I don't recall any of the fights being holy trinity  tank and spanks.  I like chaos with multiple roles and mulitple outcomes.. It is what keeps bordom away.. :)

  Malevil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/10
Posts: 471

8/10/10 7:54:39 AM#60
Originally posted by Antipathy

What about the big bad, the solo boss that's supposed to scare you, and is supposed to be difficult. The giant. The dragon. The titan. The Demon. The Lich?

There's only one of them, but they're big, they're mean, and they're very dangerous.

What would an encounter look like with a big boss if there was no tanks around?

If the big boss could be stun locked, or kited, then he's really not very scary, and the encounter becomes trivial. So crowd control destroys the intent of the encounter.

If every single player in the raid is capable of surviving being attacked by the big boss, then, once again, the boss isn't very scarey. If just feels intuitively wrong that a puny mage could walk away after being bitten by a dragon.

And if some players can take the hits from the big bad end guy and some can't, then you're left with a tank and spank system, with the players who can take the hits being the tanks.

In other words, it seems to me that if you get rid of tank and spank mechanics, you are also get rid of the concept of the big bad end guy, which to me would be a serious loss, since the game would lose a large amount of the excitement and romance of the genre.

What you describe is another problem i have most of the games . You play HERO, not some freaking worm, you should be definetly able to withstand some beating from boss (with righ use your class abilities) and not to die in seconds. Rising power level of players closer to bosses would be definitly welcomed change for me. Killing Onyxia solo with my deathknight felt more epic for me than killing her at 60 with 40man raid, i was hero killing dragon, not one soldier in army (i'm not saying that end bosses should be soloable).

Stunlock and kitting triviality depends on abilities, cooldowns and other conditions definetly can make their use much less trivial than classic tank and spank fight.

I dont think that this will mean end of big bad end boss, in fact it could make these fights more fun becouse your cc abilities would actualy work and you would have to use them to beat him - not like now, no silence, no slow, no stun ...

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