Originally posted by cyphers

- the fact that atrocities were being committed under the Nazi regime, doesn't mean that all Nazis were evil (extreme example of a good person: Schindler's List)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Sorry cyphers, you lost. gg.

Originally posted by Falfeir

Originally posted by cyphers

- the fact that atrocities were being committed under the Nazi regime, doesn't mean that all Nazis were evil (extreme example of a good person: Schindler's List)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Sorry cyphers, you lost. gg.

Lol! Nice find, gotta remember that one for other debates, thanks

I didn't lose though, see here:

The law [Godwin's Law] and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, early 20th century eugenics (racial superiority) or other mainstays of Nazi Germany, nor, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances is appropriate.

I was talking about totalitarian regimes and genocide, so it was appropriate. Game continues

Originally posted by Drachasor

Anyhow, the Sith Empire is a bit like Nazi Germany.  Yes, there are good people around in it, here and there, but the State itself is evil and so are the major players (one could argue the Sith Empire is probably worse on an individual level than the Nazis, but figuring that out probably isn't worth the time involved).  One could say the Old Republic is then like the U.S. circa WW2.  It has some evil people and evil acts, but overall it is a massive force for good (same with the Jedi in ToR).  

It has a lot of similarities, in that both are totalitarian regimes that  have a viewpoint of relishing the strong and regarding weakness as a flaw. The Nazi doctrine was in essence not about doing evil but took its influence from (neo) darwinism and Nietsche. Nazi regime wasn't unique in that 'survival of the fittest' belief, many cultures and civilisations throughout the centuries held similar beliefs, among them Sparta that killed its own young when they were deemed insufficient.

ToR is certainly a game of Good vs. Evil; but it isn't a game where the Evil Empire is full of Always Chaotic Evil people and the Old Republic is full of Always Lawful Good people.  It's more complicated (and realistic) than that, but that doesn't make morality meaningless or the Sith Empire not evil.  And this only makes sense as the Dark Side is corrupting and makes you more evil, as all Canon states (and the few exceptions have been ret-conned or are given by unreliable narrators).

The Dark Side can be very seductive and corrupting, but is it always only leading to evil in SW canon? I can recall examples as Mara Jade who was a Dark Side user in service of a Sith emperor who didn't go over the edge and also ended up at the good side. Or the New Jedi, post-movie era, that used both sides of the Force.

@Troneas: I wasn't referring to Darwin's point of view but to the philosophy called (neo-)-Darwinism that arose as a result of his works, and that favored the idea that 'the strongest and fittest will survive', also when it comes to people and cultures.

Any human with a mature mind know that good and evil are only subjective concepts, and the universal good/evil do not really exists..

I think i am doing the right thing, and does i am good, and who does the opersite is evil, even though he is properly thinking the same thing.

So it absolutely POINTLESS to EVER discuss good and evil, because who you agree with is "good" to you, but some other WILL feel the same way.

Pick your side, and know it is because you agree with them, and drop all that bs about good and evil....

Originally posted by tfwarlord

Any human with a mature mind know that good and evil are only subjective concepts, and the universal good/evil do not really exists..

I think i am doing the right thing, and does i am good, and who does the opersite is evil, even though he is properly thinking the same thing.

So it absolutely POINTLESS to EVER discuss good and evil, because who you agree with is "good" to you, but some other WILL feel the same way.

Pick your side, and know it is because you agree with them, and drop all that bs about good and evil....

yeah...

The concepts of "good" and "evil", which form the basis of morals, are not subjective but are rooted in ideological reasoning.

To say that "everything is relative and one big gray area" is actually false. That statement in of itself is an absolute statement thus making itself false. All ideology is rooted in absolute concepts and form the basis of its ideals thus creating protagonistic and antagonistic values ie "right" and "wrong", "good" and "evil".

but back to the Jedi/Sith thing:

Neither ideology is actually "good" or "evil". It just so happens that a majority of individuals that are Sith tend become "evil" in the classic sense where as Jedi tend to be "good" in the classic sense.

So Sith = bad guys and Jedi = good guys.

Man there are alot of interesting posts lol, didn't read them all but alot of them.  I tend to agree more with what Drachasor and cyphers have said; especially that "consequentialist standpoint" bit.  My personal view is that the "Light & Dark" sides of the force are closer in relation to Yin Yang of Taoism more than anything else.  Some might say the selfless vs. the selfish, and I agree to a large extent, but I think it's false to think that Jedi always equal selfless and Sith always selfish.

Which brings me to my point, I believe Nurture and how it influences Perception has alot to do with what is and isn't moral/ethical behaviour.  How we are raised, by not only the society as a whole, but also within a family and community, greatly influences Perception.  Which more than anything, influences the labeling of something as Good/Bad or Righteous/Evil.  True, there is that ever present "concious" that can override even the deepest ingrained Nurture, but that is few and far between, and rarely without some "religious experience" to accompany it.  Looking at it this way you can deduce a way that someone could be within an "evil" society but still be a "good" person.

An example would be a boy raised within the KKK.  That little sentence implies alot, but also not as much as one would think.  Obviously you could assume, without much error, that he would be raised to irrationally hate alot of ethnic groups; an evil thing.  But he could of also been raised to provide for his family, to help others in his community in times of need, to love and care for the environment; all good things.  Now if this boy were real, what would he be?  Evil?  Good? 

One could argue that it depends on what he does in life, whether he goes around lynching blacks, or just avoiding them; and even then what he is is defined by the observer.  And that illustrates the ambiguity of it all, Good/Bad Evil/Righteous are just labels we give to try to sort out the world as We, the individual, see it.  In this sense, Jedi/Sith are just 2 parts to the same coin and it largely depends on where you're standing as how they are defined; or as a wise man once said, "..from a certain point of view".

Which is why to me, I would not only roll a Sith in game, but also in RL if such a choice existed.  Why?  Is it because I'm an evil person who wants to enslave the world(s), blow up puppies with my mind, and/or steal everyone's cookies? ...well maybe that last one >:P  In reality, it's because I believe living by strong emotion is more humane and "right" than living some sterile, overly disciplined, self-righteous lifestyle; something I associate with the Jedi.  In that sense, the Jedi, to me, are the more arrogant and selfish faction.  Alot of that is due to how I was raised; life is a mosh pit, in order to live it you gotta jump in and accept all it's faults and have fun :).  Anyway, I hope that makes some sense as it is very late and I am very tired lol.  Suck it haters.

Side Note:  I'm willing to bet Sith chicks are awesome in bed >:D.

Originally posted by cyphers

The Dark Side can be very seductive and corrupting, but is it always only leading to evil in SW canon? I can recall examples as Mara Jade who was a Dark Side user in service of a Sith emperor who didn't go over the edge and also ended up at the good side. Or the New Jedi, post-movie era, that used both sides of the Force.

I've only read the EU stuff up until the end of the New Jedi Order, but though those 50 or so books, yes the dark side leads to evil.   Not all that fall to the dark side remain there, some (like Mara Jade, etc.) find their way back to the light, but it in finding their way back to the light that they become "good".  

I can't think of any examples where a consistently and permanently Dark Side jedi (or sith) was considered "good".  Sure, they level of corruption varies and some good deeds are done, but i don't remember any "good" characters that were Dark Jedi.  And if there was, it would have a been a major exception to the rule. 

What EU did in terms of adding shades of grey to the star wars universe wasn't really in terms of Dark Side and Light Side of the force, those stayed pretty much the same.  Some better exploration of what it means to fall and come have been provided, but it's been pretty consistent that one you do fall, you tend to do evil things until you come back.  

Some EU writers (Zahn in particular) did a good job delving into the nature of the Galactic Empire and how the Empire in itself wasn't necessarily an evil entity any more than the US or Germany are an evil entity.  It was a nation with an army and with questionable political decisions and some evil people and leaders as well as good people and leaders.  

I really think that - despite the very intelligent posts in this thread - there just isn't enough to argue about with TOR.  The Sith / Jedi and Light / Dark breaks are extemely simplistic and not meant to withstand any kind of close moral or political scrutiny.  It is a poor design choice to draw the battle-lines around these simplistic choices, but it is necessary for the sort of simplistic game that TOR will.  

Remember, BioWare is not trying to build a functioning world where politics and morals make sense.  They're trying to build a fun game with a reason for people to kill each other for fun.  For this purpose, these kinds of battlelines are necessary.  And I honestly call bs on the developer quoted as saying that sith don't get up drinking evil coffee and getting up to evil things, because in the way the game is set up, that's exactly what they do.  Which not something ashamed of, as this is exactly what players will do - they will log in and think "i'm a sick evil sith mofo, let me get my skull mask and rape me some jedi".  

While you bring up some good points, in the end it's not what our speculations say but what Bioware plans and decides to do with SW:ToR that will be law.

And like with their other games, they're pretty clear in their intent to really build a functioning world where politics and morals makes sense, to add depth and nuance to both sides, and to step away from making things too black&white and 2-dimensional. It's certainly not a game built around simplistic choices, that has never been Bioware's intention with any of their games.

As Bioware people themselves say:

"We have two things, which are faction and morality. I think the people confuse the Dark Side/Lightside alignment. One thing important for us is that the Sith are not cartoons. They cannot wake up in the morning and say "oh lets have some evil cofee and some evil pancakes. They got to be real people with a real culture. They have to have a legitimate point of view.

Again Light Side is a very different thing in our game. People often say "Oh - I'd just switch factions!" No you wouldn't. The Sith were literally chased out of the galaxy by the Jedi, you had an entire culture and people who were pushed out of known space. So you get these guys who come back and have a big chip on their shoulder. If you are playing a lightside Sith, you do NOT jump over to the Republic and join the people that tried to wipe out your entire people.

Being a good man [in the Sith Empire] means trying to change the world from the inside. You're trying to make the Empire a better place. We have to make sure that people understood that every evil regime that's ever existed in history has good people in it. The majority of people were just trying to 'do their thing' "

"Its not a chance to be evil, thats NOT what the Dark Side is about. it's about passion, competition, the thrill of victory. And ofcourse the strongest should rule"

This leads to believe that Dark Side/Lightside is not linked to faction: you can earn Dark Side and Lightside points in both factions. Sure, you can play pure evil as Sith or pure good as Jedi all you like, but Bioware made it clear that they offer a SW universe that has a richer, broader palette of moral colors and choices than the fairy tale black & white from the first movies.

The EU already had more moral nuance, and Bioware only has taken it further.

Originally posted by cyphers

Its not a chance to be evil, thats NOT what the Dark Side is about.

Except that it is.  Like i said, I'm yet to see a single example of a fully dark side character in the star wars universe that was a power for good.   Not someone who switched or fell and returned, but someone that was a fully dark side (or sith) and who was "good" in the moral sense of the word.  

I understand what you've quoted.  Frankly, I just don't believe it and I've seen no precedent to it.  But hey, wait and see.  

Please do not lose sight of the fact that this discussion is based upon books and movies that are created to entertain.

The Sith were used as protagonists in these stories and therefore not the whole focus of the story.  Usually it was about someone overcoming the corruption or desire for the Dark Side of the Force.  The Dark Side phrasee is used in this content to really drive forth the point that it is bad.

However, like BioWare is saying.  That may make a great book or story but, when you are not focused on one individual and the rammifications of what they are doing versus what is going on around them, you can extrapolate quite a variety of situations that fall into the shades of gray.

So, they are giving you options.  if you want to play the Darth PurelyEvilEpicSlayerOfBunnies you can.  But, if you want to be less of a steriotype and try to change the Empire from within, you have that option as well.  They are basically saying that it may unbalance the game by allowing players to switch sides.  In their mind it keeps the overpopulation of the "Drizzt" characters from happening.  ( thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you )   

Originally posted by NovaKayne

However, like BioWare is saying.  That may make a great book or story but, when you are not focused on one individual and the rammifications of what they are doing versus what is going on around them, you can extrapolate quite a variety of situations that fall into the shades of gray.

 So, they are giving you options.  if you want to play the Darth PurelyEvilEpicSlayerOfBunnies you can.  But, if you want to be less of a steriotype and try to change the Empire from within, you have that option as well.  They are basically saying that it may unbalance the game by allowing players to switch sides.  In their mind it keeps the overpopulation of the "Drizzt" characters from happening.  ( thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you )   

I think the reasons that you can't switch sides is a technical one: the forest of branching decision trees is already complex with the choices that players can make that reverberate and have consequences in follow up quests and dialogues. But if you can also switch side at any given time and you have to also take into account in dialogues, plots and quests all the potential choices players could have made on the other side, then the total work of story and plot heavy VO quests becomes daunting and a mission impossible.

I agree with the Jedi-Sith thing, it's easy to do in books and such purely focusing on pure good or pure evil.

But Bioware people have stated many times their intent to build believable worlds and cultures with SW:TOR, not 2-dimensionsal, charicature ones.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by cyphers

Its not a chance to be evil, thats NOT what the Dark Side is about.

I understand what you've quoted.  Frankly, I just don't believe it and I've seen no precedent to it.  But hey, wait and see.  

What's there to understand?

Bioware people have said how their vision is for SW:TOR. That's along the lines that they will implement it, with more diversity in morality choices inherent in their MMO world, and the Jedi and Sith cultures having more depth and complexity.

How it'll work out in the end, I guess indeed we'll have to wait and see when the full beta arrives.

Originally posted by cyphers

Something that came up in another SW:TOR thread, the 'good vs evil' thing.

 

A large number of players who're gonna play SW:TOR probably won't give a s**t about it: they'll pick Sith just because they're badass and pick the Jedi because they're  'the good guys', the lore nothing more than background music on the race to level cap and voice over quests something to skip through as fast as the system allows.

 

But for those that care about the lore, the difference between jedi and sith isn't as black & white as 'good' vs 'evil', the same applies to the difference between the 'light' and 'dark' side of the Force, especially if you consider the Expanded Universe (see below in post).

 

Jedi and Sith

The Jedi and Sith doctrines are more like philosophies, like capitalism, communism, gaianism, social darwinism or zen bhuddism: a way of looking at or dealing with the universe and society, not inherently good or evil although the results may be.

The Sith aren't just 2-dimensional evil (although someone can play their char like that ofc): they believe in survival of the strongest/fittest, and that people and civilizations can only grow and evolve through conflict. Conflict is the true challenge, a test for individuals and civilizations: 'might makes right'. Thus their empires throughout the centuries were structured in a very darwinist/Nietschean manner, bearing similarities with totalitarian societies as Sparta, the Roman empire and fascism.

The Sith believed that the avoidance of conflict - like the pacifist teachings of the Jedi - would result in stagnation and decline.

 

The Jedi on the other hand have a doctrine that had a holistic view of the universe, bearing resemblances with Zen Bhuddism. They strive for balance in everything, resulting in them becoming maintainers of peace and justice. Because of the tempting lure of the dark side of the Force Jedi tend to abstain strong emotions, a 'sacrifice of self for the greater good' viewpoint. Where the Sith often sought to rule the galactic civilisations with their powers, the Jedi sought to guide the galactic civilsations with their powers, although throughout the ages that distinction was often not as clear-cut as it sounded.

 

Light Side and Dark Side of the Force

In the same way Light and Dark Side of the Force wasn't just merely Good vs Evil, nor were Light Side users just good and Dark Side users just evil persons.

The aspect of the Force that became later known as the Dark Side of the Force wasn't fueled by evil, but by emotions, especially strong emotions: not only negative emotions as anger and hate, but also strong positive emotions as love and passion. The Dark Side of the Force is all about passion and impulse, the stronger the better.

Due to the addictive traits of the Dark Side of the Force and the longterm destructive, negative impact of it on one's body and psyche, the users of the Light Side of the Force (called the Ashla) like the Jedi try to avoid strong emotions, to the point of clearing themselves completely of emotion via meditation.

Since love and passion also belong to strong emotions, this could often lead to inner conflict within a Jedi: in earlier eras it was still common to be married or otherwise romantically partnered up among Jedi, but in the time the movies take place in that was prohibited among Jedi to avoid potential conflict and temptation from the Dark Side of the Force. 

While the Dark Side of the Force is about passion, the Light Side of the Force is all about balance.

 

 

The Expanded Universe

Besides the movies an enormous heap of books, tv series, games and comics have been released regarding Star Wars. To maintain consistency there are people at Lucas Arts that are keeping a sharp eye on every new release, and every addition to the larger Star Wars story throughout the millennia has to be approved, so that everything together would form a continuous unity: this larger continuity is called the Expanded Universe.

Since SW:TOR takes place in this Expanded Universe, 4,000 before the movies and not like SWG in the time of the movies, there can be differences in how the Jedi and Sith act and how their societies operate compared to how it was like in the movies.

 

Ok, that was lorewise. Some links that dive deeper into the stuff in this post:

Sith wikia and Dark Side of the Force

 

Jedi Order and Light Side of the Force

 

SW Expanded Universe

 I'm a pretty huge Star Wars fan obviously seen all the films and read all the novels up until they started the whole "Jedi kids" thing and while I was a bit intimidated to even say this for a second I am fairly certain that the Dark Side is evil and the light side is good as the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil.  While I agree that at some point in time it is advantageous to expand the universe with characters not so blatantly one or the other I don't see any reason to make a point that is pretty much wrong.  This is akin to saying "the bad guy may not see his actions as bad"  doesn't change the fact that he is still evil/bad guy.

Real life is full of people who we all know to be evil yet  if asked really wouldn't have a sense of that themselves.  So yeah I think it's obvious this game will be a little bit less black and white than the films were but I think it is ultimately a disservice to the ip to even try to make this distinction, let the megolomaniacal Sith make the distinction that they are not evil (because we all know many of them have and will anyway) but Star Wars much like Tolkiens works are about the struggles between the forces of good and the forces of evil and it is why it also resonates so strongly within us all and I see no reason to take that away.

Originally posted by wardog250

Here we go with this again.  In most civilized cultures around the world, murdering millions of people for a personal agenda is considered evil.  You see the Sith believe in enslaving or killing anyone who stands in their path.  If that seems like "just another viewpoint", then you need some serious counseling sessions.  The Sith are evil, not just because they act like PMSing teenagers; but, because they will do anything to get what they want.  The Jedi on the other hand use a more passive philosphy, "Stop and think about the consequences before you commit to something".

Stop kidding yourself, the Sith are not some misunderstood off shoot of the Jedi, they are corrupted and twisted into evil incarnet by the negative energies they feed off of.  The more of the darkside you use, the more it twists your mind into chaos.  That's why the Jedi are trained to use their powers sparingly.

 Well said and the ultimate truth and why I see this whole post as an afront to the lore that is Star Wars.  Sith can make the argument that they do not think they are evil but that doesn't make it a debatable point, it's like people defending Hitler who I'm fairly certain didn't see his actions as evil either.

I recall one of the first times encountering the op's philosphy was playing old school pen and paper D&D with the alignment system.  If I remember right it was along the lines of a Lawful evil person would not see his actions as evil but the most obvious mena to an end and honestly most of the Sith we have encountered in any SW lore whether from the six films, cartoons, comics most of the Sith do not fit this mold they tend far more towards a chaotic evil aligment which is also why they are so often scarred beyond belief by the use of the dark side.

Again I'm not really disagreeing with the ops point that there are certainly shades of grey but have to say saying the Sith/dark side is not evil while the light side/jedi are good is just plain wrong.

@Cyphers, definately another reason for the not being able to switch sides.  Cannot argue with that either.

I do believe tho, that the option of playing Sith s to be Evil if you want.  However, not HAVING to be the Murderous psycopath is an option.  Or, varying degrees of the Evil persona.

I think where this whole shades of gray comes from is the Vader Saga in the last few movies.  Lucas' idea of making the choice by Vader to go to the Dark Side being more of a frustration with the Jedi than a true chance to be the Ultimate Evil Force Using being in the Universe.  Couple that with the reality that it was his choice that caused the death of the one he loved and I think it just pushed him over the edge of caring any more.

I understand this takes place some time in the future, prior to those stories in the movies.  In this era, BW is trying to build a society around the thinking that is Sith.  Fabricating a whole faction of peoples who would be under the control of this empire and how they are controlled BY that Empire.

The scope of thier construction ( IMHO ) is similar to totalitarian rules of history.  Somewhat reflective of varying Asian Dynesties, Western Fiefdoms, and Middle Eastern Thocracies of the past and present.  With the added mysticism of the Force as the main controlling factor to keep it from being identified with any one of them specifically.

When thinking about it in this concept, it is not so much a Good Vs Evil thing as it is more of a philosophy.  Now, to a "free man" this may seem Black and White.  To one under such rule, our version of this may seem more Chaotic, Anarchistic, and Selfish.  With everyone being out for themselves and no one out to help their society as a whole.

Do not get me wrong, I personally see it as an "Evil" concept of society.  With the false pretense of having the greater good over the individual when it is more about keeping the power within the hands of a select few and at their discretion.  And some can make the same argument about Democracy. 

IMO, this is not a devil versus wholly man thing here.  These are two societies with different ideolgies at conflict.  Meaning not EVERYONE will be the embodiment of evil.  Like saying every Muslim is evil.  It is jut NOT the case.

The first Trilogy was about the good vs evil.  The second trilogy was the story of Vader mainly.  However, the Emperor was still the persona of Evil.  The snake providing Vader the Apple of knowledge type of thing.

Heh, this is a rehash. I've already commented upon those arguments in other posts in this thread, but here it goes:

objectively looking at actions and behaviour, our forefathers were as much evil as Hitler and his Nazi regime: they were also mass murderers, committers of genocide, slavers, that saw other peoples and races that were different from theirs as inferiors and treated them as beings less than human.

You only have to read the reports of the slave transports that went from Africa to all the new lands, the African slaves treated as cattle and traveling often under the most horrible conditions, many dying en route. Or the deceit and slaughter with which the European nations exterminated the civilisations in Middle and South America to carve their own pieces of the pie. Or the many ways the native Americans were deceived and chased and driven off their own lands in North America.

Yet not much negative of this is being said in the history lessons of the countries that committed those actions, and it certainly isn't being compared as being the same as what happened under Hitler and the Nazi regime. Instead people talk about the 'discovery of America' (didn't the native Americans alrdy know where it was?) and the 'exploration of the New World' and often with pride is being spoken by Europan and American people of the history of their countries, giving little thought towards the blood and bones of entire peoples upon which those empires and riches were built.

But to an objective outsider that would merely look at the actions and results, he would conclude that a lot of the actions what the so called enlightened nations, that most of us are part of, did in the preceding centuries was as evil as what Hitler and his companions did in his time.

What do I want to say with this?

- There's evil that can be said to be universal, surpassing cultural or temporal influences, like rape or torture of children, or rape of women.

- Then there's evil that is subjective, subject to your point of view or the time or culture we live in: we're often more forgiving and understanding about the group of people or society we're part  of then towards other different people, cultures and societies.

- And then there's the important difference between action and intent: the action can be the same, but the intent can determine whether the action was evil or not. You can have someone killed by accident via a car crash, but that doesn't make it evil. But if someone kills someone purposely and enjoys it getting satisfaction from it, that's evil. Unless it was an act of vengeance because that person harmed or raped your wife or kids, then there were mitigating circumstances and the act wasn't pure evil.

Same about greed, we can be selfish in our ambition to gather more money or advance our career, but that isn't necessary pure evil. But if our ambition turns to greed and we consciously pursue our hunt for money or power even if we're aware that our actions directly lead to lives being destroyed in whatever way, then that's evil.

So I don't see that much of a problem with the course Bioware is taking, they're only building further upon what was already there in the Expanded Universe, namely a broader spectrum of choices you can make within the side you're from.

edit: and what NovaKayne said, great last post

Originally posted by NovaKayne

The first Trilogy was about the good vs evil.  The second trilogy was the story of Vader mainly.  However, the Emperor was still the persona of Evil.  The snake providing Vader the Apple of knowledge type of thing.

In the prequel trilogy, Anakin is a light side jedi and is generally good until he is corrupted.  At the end of the trilogy he switches to being a dark side jedi and throughout the original trilogy he a dark side jedi who is very clearly evil.  

In terms of "society under regime", that may be true that not all members of the what is called an "evil regime" such as Nazi Germany or whatever are evil.  However, in TOR, you are not playing one of the peons or one of the "working class" or "the oppressed", you are playing one of the ruling class, those that embody and enforce the philosophy.  You're not a factory worker living in a city ruled by a sith lord, you ARE the sith lord.  You are not being threatened by the iron fist rule of the military - you ARE that military, etc.  In a set up like Galaxies, where you could have been an empire-aligned dancer or trader, this was possible, but in TOR, the roles available to play are pretty clearcut, expecially the ones that have to do with Force Sensitive characters - you're either a Jedi or a Sith, you are not a lost force-sensitive looking for a guidance.  

All that being said, the lore of the films and the books doesn't matter.  The fact is that this is not the movie or the book, this is BioWare's version of Star Wars.  And if they say there are light side sith fighting the good fight and saving kittens, then that's how it is.  It's their right to tell their story.  

The difference though between "our forefathers" and the Star Wars universe is one is the real world in which we live and one is a creation with a central theme.  I've personally stated a few times while I totally agree with what you say as in there are going to be Jedi leaning a bit just as Sith leaning a bit both in game and a few examples I can think of myself in the lore from the movies to the books that can't really override the fact that Star Wars is an epic struggle between the forces of evil and the forces of good.

I don't think Star Wars ever took long to address that in the fact that the two central force wielding characters both struggled to find where they would ultimately lie in the battle both Luke and Vader.  Yeah you can make a really long philosophical case for why in real world terms Jedi vs Sith, is not the same as good vs evil, the fact is that is exactly what it is about.  Doesn't change the fact that some people will not be so instumental for either side and may be a detriment.  The Sith have never represented the interest of the common good or any good at all for that matter.

I don't know I guess it's just you're making a point that has absolutely no need to be made anyone who just looked at what I say begins within the first few minutes and is the central theme can see that shades exist and that redmeption may even be possible in the case of Anakin.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by cyphers

Its not a chance to be evil, thats NOT what the Dark Side is about.

Except that it is.  Like i said, I'm yet to see a single example of a fully dark side character in the star wars universe that was a power for good.   Not someone who switched or fell and returned, but someone that was a fully dark side (or sith) and who was "good" in the moral sense of the word.  

 

I understand what you've quoted.  Frankly, I just don't believe it and I've seen no precedent to it.  But hey, wait and see.  

All Sith are GOOD in the moral sense of the word. The Jedi only ask that you give yourself body and soul to a cause and from it enjoy the personal satisfaction of achieving the mission.

A Sith says "Do as you are told, and you will be rewarded".

The Jedi are nothing more than manipulators, just like the churches and mosques today. They ask for you to give and promise you will feel good when you do. They give nothing in return.

A Sith says "Fail, you will be punished".

The Jedi says you either do it, or you don't, which is the same process of though as the fat kid in his mom's basement that will play Sith to be "Evil". Do you really want to think that way? Those fat slobs think "I won't work, Mommy will bow to me and my demands and will buy the game and sub for me". Personally, just not to play with people like that, I might not even buy the game.

The only deciding factor of good and evil in peoples mind, although its a 2-1 affair for the Sith in terms of evil is this:

A Sith says: Fail again, and you will die.

A Jedi says, maybe he will be of use someday to the community, lets put someone who can accomplish the task in his place.

It is true, that sometimes several failures might be needed to accomplish something. However, 90% of the time, the failure is a failure for life. As the Sith are made out to think only in absolute, they simply end a failure's life sooner. Personnally, I believe even a failure at life can be useful. Have him pick up the garbage left at the side of the street. Have him put bottle caps on smelly products, have him put the peanut on top of the Squirrel peanut butter containers. The Jedi are right on this one, every failure can be used, even YOU.

Remember this however, when thinking in absolutes, one is always alone.

Wow, serious stretch of morality in that post Jack.

Originally posted by jackmcleod

The Jedi are nothing more than manipulators, just like the churches and mosques today. They ask for you to give and promise you will feel good when you do. They give nothing in return.

Actually, i think a much better (and more likely) RL comparison to Jedi is Shaolin Monks who by choosing to live with a certain discipline aim to attain better knowledge of their minds and bodies.  That's pretty much what the Jedi, only in addition minds and bodies there is also the force and discipline has another reason in warding off the danger of falling to the dark side. 

Because no deep philosophical argument is complete without quoting Spiderman, the jedi believe that with great power comes great responsibility and have structured their order to better prepare their members for accepting this responsibility.  The sith do not concern themselves with any responsibility, they believe that with great power comes the opportunity to obtain even more power, so they've structured their order this way - as basically a gluttony of power. 

I don't think monotheistic institution-based religions like Christianity or Islam are a good comparison point for the force.  Taoism and Buddhism on the other hand come closer as they are more concerned with paths following through life and beyond and discipline in obtaining higher states of understanding.