Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by Panther2103

Well if something is wrong with something, you don't leave it like that, you change it as you go. That's kind of a better idea than having a broken system.

 In short, you can not keep all the players happy all the time.

They haven't been doing that very well either.  No gain in subscriptions in 2 years, even with Wrath released.  Ghostcrawler said only 30% of those doing the free trial end up subscribing.  Umm, 30% success rate is good in baseball not in an MMO.

WoW needs two things to break the stagnation.

First, new classes.  Nearly 6 years old and only 1 new class added (that starts at 55) does not encourage rerolling.

Second, they need to listen to their players.  Their current attitude is they do what they want, when they want and how they want it.  Then try to convince everyone they should like it too.  I mean, in patch 2.2 they added voice chat.  This was absurd, since by then anyone that wanted voice chats already had teamspeak or ventrilo.  That was a complete waste of time coding this that could of better went to other areas.

Originally posted by DrowNoble

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by Panther2103

Well if something is wrong with something, you don't leave it like that, you change it as you go. That's kind of a better idea than having a broken system.

 In short, you can not keep all the players happy all the time.

They haven't been doing that very well either.  No gain in subscriptions in 2 years, even with Wrath released.  Ghostcrawler said only 30% of those doing the free trial end up subscribing.  Umm, 30% success rate is good in baseball not in an MMO.

WoW needs two things to break the stagnation.

First, new classes.  Nearly 6 years old and only 1 new class added (that starts at 55) does not encourage rerolling.

Second, they need to listen to their players.  Their current attitude is they do what they want, when they want and how they want it.  Then try to convince everyone they should like it too.  I mean, in patch 2.2 they added voice chat.  This was absurd, since by then anyone that wanted voice chats already had teamspeak or ventrilo.  That was a complete waste of time coding this that could of better went to other areas.

You want new classes?  They already have 10.  If anything I think they should have fewer classes and allow more customization for each class.

And regarding your second post, the bear who just got dirt thrown in his face is louder than the bear who hasn't had any dirt in his face.  Most forum posts are angry, and very rarely do they represent the majority of the player base.  When there's an update that you like, you don't post on the forums about how much you like it, but when there's an update that you don't like, you might as well spend a whole night complaining on 8 different forums.  This makes it difficult to "listen to the players".  Also, one of they're main devs (Ghostcrawler) is on the forums, plus with they're occasional twitter Q&A, I'd say they listen to their players.  They may just not take all of their advice.  And lastly, good updates don't really attract new players, they just keep old ones from quitting.

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Originally posted by Rydeson
FACT is.. The number 1 reason a person leaves a guild is because they guild is not fullfilling their needs.. such as getting to go on raids.. PERIOD.. How is penalizing someone going to solve that problem?  IT Doesn't.. They have not learned the art of identifying the CAUSE, but instead attack the result.. I'm glad they are not doctors..

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I also loved your other quote later in this thread that "BLIZZARD didnt' listen to shit.. NONE of the players want the guild rep grind, especially for alts, and what did Bliz say and do about that? yeah.. I thought so :)"

So you now know the reason why every person leaves a guild and you speak for every player in terms of guild rep??? Also, one of the dangers of 'reading between the lines' is that people will tend to put their own slant on that reading.

I will judge the changes on release rather than when they are partially developed and as with most MMO's i would expect it to evolve/change over time as more and more feedback comes from the players. I am not saying that it will be fantastic, i have no idea as i haven't played it yet, it could even suck but i will reserve until i have actally played it and seen it in action.

Originally posted by jason_webb

 

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Originally posted by Rydeson
FACT is.. The number 1 reason a person leaves a guild is because they guild is not fullfilling their needs.. such as getting to go on raids.. PERIOD.. How is penalizing someone going to solve that problem?  IT Doesn't.. They have not learned the art of identifying the CAUSE, but instead attack the result.. I'm glad they are not doctors..

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I also loved your other quote later in this thread that "BLIZZARD didnt' listen to shit.. NONE of the players want the guild rep grind, especially for alts, and what did Bliz say and do about that? yeah.. I thought so :)"

So you now know the reason why every person leaves a guild and you speak for every player in terms of guild rep???  First, my post said nothing about "every person", I said the number 1 reason.. now maybe I should of refined that even more as it relates to in game reason.  Also, one of the dangers of 'reading between the lines' is that people will tend to put their own slant on that reading. The intel I used for saying the number 1 reason are based from 10 years of mmo playing, reading dev chat, and surfing the forums. :)  Google even helps..

I will judge the changes on release rather than when they are partially developed and as with most MMO's i would expect it to evolve/change over time as more and more feedback comes from the players. I am not saying that it will be fantastic, i have no idea as i haven't played it yet, it could even suck but i will reserve until i have actally played it and seen it in action.

I'm also curious since we are on the aspects of Blizzard listening and guild rep/level BS..  How many complaints will it take by players that have spent hours or weeks REP grinding so they can go on "raids", only to be told there is no room for them.. The player ends up feeling FORCED out or KICKED out, and is forced to regrind rep in the new guild..   I know for me it would only have to happen once and POOOOF.. /cancel

Did anyone at Bliz or even some of the fanbois think of that "What if" and is that fair?  Customers pay $15 a month to play the content and shouldn't have to be forced to play the drama clique game with immature guilds to see it.. Should they?

Alright bro bashing blizzard (for WoW) was so 2008.

Even i've gotten tired of it and i despise Blizzard and consider current WoW a NGE of what it used to be.

With that said give it a rest.

We have enough games to play that you no longer need to hang on blizzards nut sack hitting it with a spiked bat.

Get over it and lets play/talk about another game.

EQ2 have had guild levels from the start and it works fine there. Wow should have stolen more from where they got the idea or skipped it.

It seems here like they mixed in AoCs bonuses from guildcities but without actually include the city itself. It is not that great in AoC and sounds even worse here.

But as usual they probably gets it right eventually. Blizzard have always been good on changing stuff until it actually works, I just wish they waited with releasing it until it does.

Being in a good guild should matter but it shouldn't give you too much unfair advantages. 

In EQ2 you get the chance to buy better mounts and gets access to a better guildhall where you can craft and do other time saving stuff (like port to a place where all traders are collected close to each other). Nothing that actually effect the game but it still saves you a lot of time in the long run.

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Originally posted by Rydeson
I'm also curious since we are on the aspects of Blizzard listening and guild rep/level BS..  How many complaints will it take by players that have spent hours or weeks REP grinding so they can go on "raids", only to be told there is no room for them.. The player ends up feeling FORCED out or KICKED out, and is forced to regrind rep in the new guild..   I know for me it would only have to happen once and POOOOF.. /cancel
Did anyone at Bliz or even some of the fanbois think of that "What if" and is that fair?  Customers pay $15 a month to play the content and shouldn't have to be forced to play the drama clique game with immature guilds to see it.. Should they?

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In 10 years of MMO playing you must surely have realised by now that every player has a differing expectation of the game and different reasons for playing. Those with roughly the same reasons/expectations tend to gather into the same guilds and as part of being new to a game it may take several attempts to find the 'right' guild for you.

As far as feeling forced out of a guild, that would be a pretty clear message to me that i probably hadn't found the right guild to be in. Personally i have been in the same guild now for almost 2 years and even moved main servers to be with these guys after meeting them through an alt when my main was down.

On the whole we are looking forward to the guild changes that have been laid out, but as with any expansion release we would expect them to be finished enough to be usable, but also expect that changes will be made over time as has always happened with most features not just in WOW but in most MMO's as they are 'never' a finished product.

Originally posted by DrowNoble

They haven't been doing that very well either.  No gain in subscriptions in 2 years, even with Wrath released.  Ghostcrawler said only 30% of those doing the free trial end up subscribing.  Umm, 30% success rate is good in baseball not in an MMO.

woah, gotta catch ya there.  are you honestly saying WoW isn't doing well?  We all knew it would stop growing eventually, there is no way it could grow endlessly.  however 30% of free trials joining is incredible.  30% retention for an MMO is mind blowing.  look at Aion, WAR, CoH, Vanguard, AoC, Any of the AAA titles released in the last 5 years.  the only one that even comes close to keeping 30% is Aion, and thats only because its still barely a year old.

I'm the first person to point out sub numbers don't make a good game.  however they do point out a successful game, which WoW is by far the most successful MMO on the market... ever.  If the other MMOs I played could hold onto 30% of their player base, I would be soooo happy.  however the only MMO besides WoW to ever "grow" is EVE.

30% is good in baseball, 30% is freaking fantastic in MMO.

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Originally posted by DrowNoble
They haven't been doing that very well either.  No gain in subscriptions in 2 years, even with Wrath released.  Ghostcrawler said only 30% of those doing the free trial end up subscribing.  Umm, 30% success rate is good in baseball not in an MMO.

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Do you know what it is 30% of though?? If it is 30% of 100 players a week for example, then yes i can see your point, but if several thousand a week are taking the trial up and 30% of those are staying then we have a different story don't we?

It is all a matter of scale when you work with percentages, although i will admit that those that tend to publish percentages usually do it to hide actual numbers, but as we don't have any numbers to relate that against it is a bit of a red herring either way.

And 70% just don't like it.....  I think that says a lot as well..  It was enough of a concern that Blizzard addressed it..   However, I suspect  it will remain a 30% retention rate and nothing will change..  It reminds me of the podcast by Warcraft Outsiders talking about that Mr T commercial.   Who were they trying to target with the Night Elf Mohawk commercial,  Adults?..  hmmmmm

As a player that when playing WoW, tends to prefer smaller PvP guilds with goofy names for the sake of flavor - I will tell you that this absolutely does not affect my game playing at all. Hence, I don't care.

There won't be guilds with those kind of perks until after Cata guilds hit 85 anyways so any exp buffs are purely for the sake of alts imo.

Edit: Oh, and the 70% leave argument is retarded too - I probably started a game you loved and left it within a day or two as I have tried a lot of games. So really... any MMORPG with a trial is subject to those numbers - 30% is probably high for you fickle trolls anyways.

Originally posted by Rydeson

And 70% just don't like it.....  I think that says a lot as well..  It was enough of a concern that Blizzard addressed it..   However, I suspect  it will remain a 30% retention rate and nothing will change..  It reminds me of the podcast by Warcraft Outsiders talking about that Mr T commercial.   Who were they trying to target with the Night Elf Mohawk commercial,  Adults?..  hmmmmm

Yeah, because MR.T is an icon to children.   So is William Shatner, Jean-Claude Vandam, Ozzy Ozbounre, etc.

These are icons of the 70's-80's. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Rydeson

And 70% just don't like it.....  I think that says a lot as well..  It was enough of a concern that Blizzard addressed it..   However, I suspect  it will remain a 30% retention rate and nothing will change..  It reminds me of the podcast by Warcraft Outsiders talking about that Mr T commercial.   Who were they trying to target with the Night Elf Mohawk commercial,  Adults?..  hmmmmm

Yeah, because MR.T is an icon to children.   So is William Shatner, Jean-Claude Vandam, Ozzy Ozbounre, etc.

These are icons of the 70's-80's. 

Bout to say most people have no clue who they were besides mini me.

Originally posted by Reizlanzer

As a player that when playing WoW, tends to prefer smaller PvP guilds with goofy names for the sake of flavor - I will tell you that this absolutely does not affect my game playing at all. Hence, I don't care.

There won't be guilds with those kind of perks until after Cata guilds hit 85 anyways so any exp buffs are purely for the sake of alts imo.

 

Edit: Oh, and the 70% leave argument is retarded too - I probably started a game you loved and left it within a day or two as I have tried a lot of games. So really... any MMORPG with a trial is subject to those numbers - 30% is probably high for you fickle trolls anyways.

30% is the highest mmo retention rate out there btw.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by Reizlanzer

As a player that when playing WoW, tends to prefer smaller PvP guilds with goofy names for the sake of flavor - I will tell you that this absolutely does not affect my game playing at all. Hence, I don't care.

There won't be guilds with those kind of perks until after Cata guilds hit 85 anyways so any exp buffs are purely for the sake of alts imo.

 

Edit: Oh, and the 70% leave argument is retarded too - I probably started a game you loved and left it within a day or two as I have tried a lot of games. So really... any MMORPG with a trial is subject to those numbers - 30% is probably high for you fickle trolls anyways.

30% is the highest mmo retention rate out there btw.

Thank you for backing up my point =)

Everything in any mmo has its flaws...There is not such thing as perfection when you have tens of thousands of players giving their opinion. Its just like the biggest myth in mmo gaming, class balance. There is no such thing. To have class balance you would have to have only one class. Even if the dev did all the math and thought about every eventuality, some people would still complain. The thing is that the avarage gamer does not have an overview of the whole mmo, he knows only a portion and that is not enough to judge what is or what isnt balanced, or what will or wont cause problems. Thats why even though I invest myself in the mmos I play I never take the game so serious that things, such as this Guild Leveling problem spoils the experiance for me. I say if the Pally is too strong to solo take a buddy, if thats not enough take two...thats it. To me every problem has a very simple solution. If you and your guild have a play to win mentaility and feel that you are leveling to slow becouse of the way you play, simply change things up...its alot easier and quicker than waiting for the dev to balance the game for you.

Originally posted by Rydeson

And 70% just don't like it.....  I think that says a lot as well..  It was enough of a concern that Blizzard addressed it..   However, I suspect  it will remain a 30% retention rate and nothing will change..  It reminds me of the podcast by Warcraft Outsiders talking about that Mr T commercial.   Who were they trying to target with the Night Elf Mohawk commercial,  Adults?..  hmmmmm

Hmm.  lets see.   WOW hit 11million subscribers, and then got cut off by the chinese gov't, which is the only reason they 'stalled' at 11 million.  China is back online, Wrath is about to launch there, and Cata is about to launch in the USA.  Expect to see 12 million soon.   Servers are still full, and things such as PVP WG are still packed with players.  On week nights, there are still servers with queues.

But even then, you are criticizing WOW for 'stalling' at 11million.   How many games are even able to hold numbers after launch, let alone 6 years later?  AOC sold 1 million boxes, and within 3 months was below 200k players.  Warhammer has well under 100k subscribers.   LOTRO and EQ2 fell apart and are going F2P after not being able to hold onto subscribers.

So as 'terrible' as you think WOW is, it is the only game that is holding subscribers, and then  at 11 million ( almost 100 times as many players AOC, LOTRO and Warhammer)

Of course blizzard is improviing the leveling aspect of the game.  As they say repeatedly, they have learned a lot about zone design and questing in the last 6 years, and anyone who has quested through BC and Wraith can tell you that.  

This is an exciting expansion for many reasons.  So many people are going to come back to see the revamp, players are going to reroll alts to see the new questlines that reference the earlier stuff.  ( the CSI:miami quest in westfall haha).

I just find it  hilarious that you make these posts about wow stalling when there isn't another game out there that can hold subscribers.

And back to the free-trial issue.  You know, AOC, Warhammer, LOTRO et al have free trials and yet they are losing subscribers.  I'm guessing they would be thrilled with a 30% retention rate for trial accounts.

So tell us, what game are you subscribed to that 'does it right'?

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Originally posted by Rydeson
It reminds me of the podcast by Warcraft Outsiders talking about that Mr T commercial.   Who were they trying to target with the Night Elf Mohawk commercial,  Adults?..  hmmmmm

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As far as the advertising is concerned, that is the exact market they are aiming for, the late 20's & 30's crowds. It has always been their customer base and why wouldn't you aim your advertising there??

I dont even play WoW anymore, but I like it when Blizz at least tried to add new things to the game. Sure, it wont all be perfect at the start, but at least they try! Most companies sell all the boxed copies and then just try to trick you to stick around it seems nowdays.

Anyway, if people leave a smaller guild to join a bigger one so they can get the 'advantage', then its not a person I would want in my guild anyway. Smaller guilds are generally formed because they enjoy playing with EACHOTHER, not necessarily because of some advantage it gives them.

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by Rydeson

And 70% just don't like it.....  I think that says a lot as well..  It was enough of a concern that Blizzard addressed it..   However, I suspect  it will remain a 30% retention rate and nothing will change..  It reminds me of the podcast by Warcraft Outsiders talking about that Mr T commercial.   Who were they trying to target with the Night Elf Mohawk commercial,  Adults?..  hmmmmm

Hmm.  lets see.   WOW hit 11million subscribers, and then got cut off by the chinese gov't, which is the only reason they 'stalled' at 11 million.  China is back online, Wrath is about to launch there, and Cata is about to launch in the USA.  Expect to see 12 million soon.   Now that is some funny stuff.. China never cut off WoW.. They  only disallowed the release of WoTLK, but the rest of the game was alive and kicking.. LOL   Servers are still full, and things such as PVP WG are still packed with players.  On week nights, there are still servers with queues.  Ha Ha Ha.. I played on 3 servers and all 3 showed NO GROWTH whatsoever :)  NONE.. ZIPPO.. NADA.. ZILCH.. in the past year there were more that left the game after being bored to tears, then newbies on each of those 3 servers.. :)  I only was in queue ONCE in the 5 years of playing, and that was back in 2007 or 2008..

But even then, you are criticizing WOW for 'stalling' at 11million.   NO one outside of WoW, has a clue what the sub numbers are.. NOT even you.. We know they didnt' grow, but for all we know they could of dropped to under 10 million since 2008.. How many games are even able to hold numbers after launch, let alone 6 years later?  AOC sold 1 million boxes, and within 3 months was below 200k players.  Warhammer has well under 100k subscribers.   LOTRO and EQ2 fell apart and are going F2P after not being able to hold onto subscribers. Ha Ha.. fell apart.. The way I see it.. EQ2 and LoTRO are much better MMORPG's then WoW.. Should we go back to the usual McDonald's example.

So as 'terrible' as you think WOW is, it is the only game that is holding subscribers, and then  at 11 million ( almost 100 times as many players AOC, LOTRO and Warhammer) Yeah.. and McDonalds is the only fast food hole that has billions and billions served.. but that doesnt' say much, does it?

Of course blizzard is improviing the leveling aspect of the game.  As they say repeatedly, they have learned a lot about zone design and questing in the last 6 years, and anyone who has quested through BC and Wraith can tell you that.  Improved what?  In my opinion WoW has turned into a childish e-sport game for kids.. only thing missing is the EPEENS and game tokens to feed in the machine..

This is an exciting expansion for many reasons.  So many people are going to come back to see the revamp, players are going to reroll alts to see the new questlines that reference the earlier stuff.  ( the CSI:miami quest in westfall haha).  Uh huh.. and I'm sure when then don't stay.. you'll quickly forget this statement and ride quietly off into the sunset :)

I just find it  hilarious that you make these posts about wow stalling when there isn't another game out there that can hold subscribers.  There are quite a few games out there in the worldwide market that are doing just fine :)  such as EVE, Dofus, FFXI Runescape Linage, LOTRO (going on 4 years).. And again you have no clue what the actual sub numbers are.. I can only assume by Blizzards LACK of bragging, that things have changed, and not for the better :)

And back to the free-trial issue.  You know, AOC, Warhammer, LOTRO et al have free trials and yet they are losing subscribers.  I'm guessing they would be thrilled with a 30% retention rate for trial accounts.

So tell us, what game are you subscribed to that 'does it right'?

Currently I enjoy EQ2 :)  It's far more a ROLE PLAYING MMO, then WoW is :)  WoW used to be fun in the beginning in a casual way.. however I and many others got tired of it :)  Sorry that seems to hurt your feelings.. I'm one of the 70% that do not find WoW enjoyable to pay to play. :)  Now if WoW would make some MASSIVE changes.. lol

Have a great day