Originally posted by mellobri

 

 Hmmmmm.  Your facts might be accurate from your experiences, however, I applied to be a beta tester for Atari, and was invited by Atari to test Horizons, before I even knew about it.  My beta reports were sent to Atari, via an HTML form on Atari's beta site.  No, I didn't notice 'a certain name' missing at all.  In fact, Atari was just about the only name I dealt with the entire time. Not saying you are incorrect, but if you aren't, then certainly there was more than one 'beta test' for Horizons.  It is odd that a company only brought on as publisher would have much to do with beta, in my experience. 

My point was solely that Atari DOES have experience with RPG's MMORPG's, even if the guys writing the code didn't have the word 'Atari' on their badges, and none they had ANY inflluence in have done well.  I'd even go so far as to say Atari is a study in mediocrity at best, and in some cases, outright failure.  Jaguar, anybody?  Neverwinter Nights 2 content? Predictions of the PS3 failing? How does a company that is consistently wrong about the gaming markets for years and years even GET publishing/distribution deals?  Now we have STO... the curse continues...

 My invites said Atari as well, and it wasn't the first game I tested for them that said that even though someone else was creating it. Then again, I have been in other beta tests were the publisher sent out the invites and such, rather than the developer. Those situations tend to be few, though ; it depends on who the companies decide will do what, once they decide to make a game. They do have RPG experience, and plenty of it (Icewind Dale, both NWN Games), but that doesn't give Atari actuall MMO development experience. Neither does having your name on a MMO box or sending out beta invites. So far the only thing you hit the nail on the head on is the following:

" I'd even go so far as to say Atari is a study in mediocrity at best, and in some cases, outright failure. Jaguar, anybody?  Neverwinter Nights 2 content? Predictions of the PS3 failing?"

To answer your last question concerning how they manage to get deals, it's really quite simple: Money. No matter how much money Atari has been bleeding away over the years, they have always managed to find someone to give them more. As to how Cryptic would sign with them? Who else was going to take Cryptic when they started with their new business plan? I believe it was Jack Emmert who said that Atari and Cryptic were a good match, back when the buyout was announced. I would put forward that Atari was the only match Cryptic could find; even Marvel and Microsoft pulled out from their deal when they saw the direction Cryptic was wanting to go.  

Originally posted by Dinendae

To answer your last question concerning how they manage to get deals, it's really quite simple: Money. No matter how much money Atari has been bleeding away over the years, they have always managed to find someone to give them more. As to how Cryptic would sign with them? Who else was going to take Cryptic when they started with their new business plan? I believe it was Jack Emmert who said that Atari and Cryptic were a good match, back when the buyout was announced. I would put forward that Atari was the only match Cryptic could find; even Marvel and Microsoft pulled out from their deal when they saw the direction Cryptic was wanting to go.  

To be fair, both had the "rush dev time, test/fix changes on customers after release" philosophy for MMOs.  In that sense it WAS a good match.  It's an awful business strategy though.

Originally posted by mellobri

Originally posted by Erstok

Atari went to shit with stupid on managing it. Nothing to do with a curse. That is why every tom dick and harry could make video games for the Atari system. It caused them to go under. Anyone for some Atari porn games?

Problem is if something is not closed source enough we get people making a name off other peoples original work. Linux anyone? Or perhaps you prefer the crappy bible games on NES where most required you to attach them to another game.

But save you the reading trouble. Don't like it don't play it. Stop getting caught up into the hype and research something.

 Just a side note... The Atari console company and the current Atari publishing company are not the same company.  Research, anyone?

 Yep, the company now known as Atari was formerly known as Infogrames Entertainment. They bought the Atari name back in December of 2000, I believe.

Originally posted by grapevine

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by mellobri

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by raistalin69

 

 i agree with you, but i look at atari with skeptiscism. as you said cryptic sold them on this, but atari beleived them. to me its common sense that what cryptic was selling was not reality. therefore i dont trust atari.i agree they got sold a bill of goods from cryptic, but they signed the cheque. i dont trust them to make good decisions in the future. i will say tha i will never buy another cryptic product again, with atari, i might give them a chance in the future if i heard good things about th product.

 I have to give Atari the benefit of the doubt on this one issue, they just didn't know better. Remember that Atari had no experience at all in the MMO market; instead they had relied on Turbine to actually produce DDO. Along comes Cryptic, a company that successfully broke out of the fantasy/scifi mode that MMOs had been in. Additionally with CoH and CoV Cryptic was able to bring a bit of innovation to MMOs. So Cryptic gives them their line about how they have developed a proprietary, recyclable MMO engine, and they can use it to do something no one else has managed to do so far; mass-produce MMOs.

It really must have looked like an incredible opportunity to Atari: DDO was failing miserably and was soon to head towards an uncertain hybrid free to play model, Atari was struggling to restructure itself out of a failing business model, and Cryptic offers them an opportunity to not only increase revenue, but to continue generating revenues from sold copies every month. Not only that, but they also had Cryptic stating that they were certain they could produce MMOs every 18 - 24 months; Atari had visions of producing MMOs for all of their major titles (we know from their own reports that Cryptic was working on a D&D based MMO for them, before Hasbro launched its lawsuit to revoke the license).

In the end, Atari made a bad call in trusting the b.s. that Emmert and Needham were pushing. So by all means, be skeptical about their decision making; just don't blame them for what was clearly Cryptic's failing, like so many others do.

 Ever hear of a game called 'Horizons?'  Probably not, since it was so terrible, but Atari DOES have experience in the MMO market.  Maybe what you meant was 'success in the MMO market...' Hello Kitty is one of their best selling titles, and Neverwinter Nights, which promised revolutionary game play, was mediocre at best.  If Atari was naive in this venture, it was not due to lack of experience in mediocrity.  Now, they have entered into deals with CCP, presumably to promote EvE, but my suspicion is they will have a lot to do with Dust 514, as well; we'll see what goes on there.

If CCP has anything to do with Atari I will lose all respect for them lol. In any case I will say this once again, the biggest issue with Atari and MMO's is that they have a 12-24 month development cycle plan for any MMO they make. 

Both CO and STO were done in less than 24 months. Both suffered from the exact same issues which stemmed from lack of development time. They basically through the game together and sent it out the door. 

Had either game received the development time they sorely needed things may have worked out a lot better in the end. Byt they didn't and the forums are filled with complaints about how shallow and generic both games are, another big complaint.... severe lack of content and it all stems from such a short development period. 

 

Atari publish EVE Online.  Their name is on the box, at leat in the EU.  That's been the case for at least over a year.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B001P3099I/ref=dp_image_z_0?ie=UTF8&n=300703&s=videogames

Atari PUBLISHED Eve Online. It was a limited distribution publication. I believe that limited run ran out a while ago now ;-) Eve Online is published via the Eve website - exclusively since the publication run ran out - and has been for over 4 years now.

Originally posted by Drachasor

  

To be fair, both had the "rush dev time, test/fix changes on customers after release" philosophy for MMOs.  In that sense it WAS a good match.  It's an awful business strategy though.

 Yep, though in cryptic's case i don't think anyone else would touch them; not only were they wanting to rush games out the door, but they were also wanting to have two MMOs with overlapping development time. Depending on when they started work on their newest MMO (which we should be hearing about sometime next month), it may very well have had overlapping development time with STO. Developing two MMOs at the same time? Not even the gaming juggernaut Blizzard has tried to do that.

Originally posted by Infalible

Atari PUBLISHED Eve Online. It was a limited distribution publication. I believe that limited run ran out a while ago now ;-) Eve Online is published via the Eve website - exclusively since the publication run ran out - and has been for over 4 years now.

 I hope that CCP stays away from Atari when they finally get around to releasing their WoD MMO, though the fact that Atari sold off their European distribution arm to Namco-Bandai gives me hope.

Originally posted by Infalible

Atari PUBLISHED Eve Online. It was a limited distribution publication. I believe that limited run ran out a while ago now ;-) Eve Online is published via the Eve website - exclusively since the publication run ran out - and has been for over 4 years now.

Nope, they still do.  That box set I linked (from Amazon) only came out last year.

It is also on the Atari store (with the Atari logo plastered on it).  http://www.atari.com/search/node/eve

Downloading it directly from CCP is simply an option.

Originally posted by grapevine

 

 

Nope, they still do.  That box set I linked (from Amazon) only came out last year.

 

It is also on the Atari store (with the Atari logo plastered on it).  http://www.atari.com/search/node/eve

 

Downloading it directly from CCP is simply an option.

 I find that troubling for the WoD MMO in progress; not that Atari can screw with the game mechanics and such directly, but I would hate to see STO type marketing disasters being associated with CCP.

I second the motion.

Originally posted by Infalible

Originally posted by grapevine

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by mellobri

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by raistalin69

 

 i agree with you, but i look at atari with skeptiscism. as you said cryptic sold them on this, but atari beleived them. to me its common sense that what cryptic was selling was not reality. therefore i dont trust atari.i agree they got sold a bill of goods from cryptic, but they signed the cheque. i dont trust them to make good decisions in the future. i will say tha i will never buy another cryptic product again, with atari, i might give them a chance in the future if i heard good things about th product.

 I have to give Atari the benefit of the doubt on this one issue, they just didn't know better. Remember that Atari had no experience at all in the MMO market; instead they had relied on Turbine to actually produce DDO. Along comes Cryptic, a company that successfully broke out of the fantasy/scifi mode that MMOs had been in. Additionally with CoH and CoV Cryptic was able to bring a bit of innovation to MMOs. So Cryptic gives them their line about how they have developed a proprietary, recyclable MMO engine, and they can use it to do something no one else has managed to do so far; mass-produce MMOs.

It really must have looked like an incredible opportunity to Atari: DDO was failing miserably and was soon to head towards an uncertain hybrid free to play model, Atari was struggling to restructure itself out of a failing business model, and Cryptic offers them an opportunity to not only increase revenue, but to continue generating revenues from sold copies every month. Not only that, but they also had Cryptic stating that they were certain they could produce MMOs every 18 - 24 months; Atari had visions of producing MMOs for all of their major titles (we know from their own reports that Cryptic was working on a D&D based MMO for them, before Hasbro launched its lawsuit to revoke the license).

In the end, Atari made a bad call in trusting the b.s. that Emmert and Needham were pushing. So by all means, be skeptical about their decision making; just don't blame them for what was clearly Cryptic's failing, like so many others do.

 Ever hear of a game called 'Horizons?'  Probably not, since it was so terrible, but Atari DOES have experience in the MMO market.  Maybe what you meant was 'success in the MMO market...' Hello Kitty is one of their best selling titles, and Neverwinter Nights, which promised revolutionary game play, was mediocre at best.  If Atari was naive in this venture, it was not due to lack of experience in mediocrity.  Now, they have entered into deals with CCP, presumably to promote EvE, but my suspicion is they will have a lot to do with Dust 514, as well; we'll see what goes on there.

If CCP has anything to do with Atari I will lose all respect for them lol. In any case I will say this once again, the biggest issue with Atari and MMO's is that they have a 12-24 month development cycle plan for any MMO they make. 

Both CO and STO were done in less than 24 months. Both suffered from the exact same issues which stemmed from lack of development time. They basically through the game together and sent it out the door. 

Had either game received the development time they sorely needed things may have worked out a lot better in the end. Byt they didn't and the forums are filled with complaints about how shallow and generic both games are, another big complaint.... severe lack of content and it all stems from such a short development period. 

 

Atari publish EVE Online.  Their name is on the box, at leat in the EU.  That's been the case for at least over a year.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B001P3099I/ref=dp_image_z_0?ie=UTF8&n=300703&s=videogames

Atari PUBLISHED Eve Online. It was a limited distribution publication. I believe that limited run ran out a while ago now ;-) Eve Online is published via the Eve website - exclusively since the publication run ran out - and has been for over 4 years now.

Atari publishes the box copies, and so they are tied to CCP, which is a heavy advertiser here, and so the dance card is set and this explains a lot of what goes on around these parts. ; )

I'm a lifer and I dont want a refund. However, I am taking  a break from the game until it reaches the point it should have been at launch, which will hopefully be around the end of the year.

Nagus I think it boils down to a few things . From my stand point I see people strung along and frustrated by influx of content that piles bug upon bug into the game. Cryptics adamant refusal to address Klingon content , but paying lip service by pointing to how much they' ve really done while in the process actually doubling Federation content. Thereby taking a two faction game and killing it for all intensive purposes. Absolutely ignoring PvP , content and balance and complicating it by introducing new varibles ( refits ), then throwing that balance further out of whack and again ingnoring Klingons.

 Cryptic is constantly asking for patients and understanding and continually delivering a subpar product. The worst part of it all , is they are dillusional about the level of competence they have. Read the state of the game ( http://startrekonline.com/node/1966 )  then actually look at the game . This game is heading as fast as it can to F2P long before the lifers get their moneys worth .  They'll more then likely copy Turbines model and apply it. I'm certain sales are way down even at $19.99.  

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

Nagus I think it boils down to a few things . From my stand point I see people strung along and frustrated by influx of content that piles bug upon bug into the game. Cryptics adamant refusal to address Klingon content , but paying lip service by pointing to how much they' ve really done while in the process actually doubling Federation content. Thereby taking a two faction game and killing it for all intensive purposes. Absolutely ignoring PvP , content and balance and complicating it by introducing new varibles ( refits ), then throwing that balance further out of whack and again ingnoring Klingons.

 Cryptic is constantly asking for patients and understanding and continually delivering a subpar product. The worst part of it all , is they are dillusional about the level of competence they have. Read the state of the game ( http://startrekonline.com/node/1966 )  then actually look at the game . This game is heading as fast as it can to F2P long before the lifers get their monies worth .  They'll more then likely copy Turbines model and apply it. I'm certain sales are way down even at $19.99.  

First Cryptic claimed the 45 day patch would fix everything wrong with the game, then it was Season 1, then Season 2 and now it Season 3 :(

Originally posted by Jounar

 

First Cryptic claimed the 45 day patch would fix everything wrong with the game, then it was Season 1, then Season 2 and now it Season 3 :(

 To be fair, it was the fans who made that 45 day patch to be more than it was supposed to be; Cryptic stated early on that it was supposed to concentrate mainly on adding genesis content to the Klingon side, but the players were the ones who blew it up to be more than it was supposed to be.

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by Jounar

 

First Cryptic claimed the 45 day patch would fix everything wrong with the game, then it was Season 1, then Season 2 and now it Season 3 :(

 To be fair, it was the fans who made that 45 day patch to be more than it was supposed to be; Cryptic stated early on that it was supposed to concentrate mainly on adding genesis content to the Klingon side, but the players were the ones who blew it up to be more than it was supposed to be.

 To be fair to Craptic the season 2 content was to be mostly about the Klingons.  The point being Craptic has completely lost any credibility . I as much told Jackalope he'd lost credibility on the Klingons side and asked why he was there, basically .  I believe he posted three or four more times and hasn't been heard from since. Everytime someone opens their mouth at Craptic they lose more and more subs , due to credibility . The only interest they currently have is how do we twist cannon to extract more cash from paying subs. ex : Refits, the ships poll ( then taking those most popular models and selling them on C-Store )

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

 

 To be fair to Craptic the season 2 content was to be mostly about the Klingons.  The point being Craptic has completely lost any credibility . I as much told Jackalope he'd lost credibility on the Klingons side and asked why he was there, basically .  I believe he posted three or four more times and hasn't been heard from since. Everytime someone opens their mouth at Craptic they lose more and more subs , due to credibility . The only interest they currently have is how do we twist cannon to extract more cash from paying subs. ex : Refits, the ships poll ( then taking those most popular models and selling them on C-Store )

 I never said they actually delivered on the 45 day patch promise for the Klingons, I just said that the fans made the 45 day patch out to be more than what it was supposed to be; just as with Season 1, Season 2, and I'm guessing Season 3.

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

 

 To be fair to Craptic the season 2 content was to be mostly about the Klingons.  The point being Craptic has completely lost any credibility . I as much told Jackalope he'd lost credibility on the Klingons side and asked why he was there, basically .  I believe he posted three or four more times and hasn't been heard from since. Everytime someone opens their mouth at Craptic they lose more and more subs , due to credibility . The only interest they currently have is how do we twist cannon to extract more cash from paying subs. ex : Refits, the ships poll ( then taking those most popular models and selling them on C-Store )

 I never said they actually delivered on the 45 day patch promise for the Klingons, I just said that the fans made the 45 day patch out to be more than what it was supposed to be; just as with Season 1, Season 2, and I'm guessing Season 3.

 Yes, what you have said about the 45 day patch is true.  It was the STO forum posters that pretty much invented the idea that it was going to be a "miracle patch".  When it wasnt, there was much chaos.

Season 2 offered 8 klingon missions for Klingon players.  Come on Cryptic... at least offer new missions in the double digets!

I remember during beta before the game launched those of us that have played LotRO said Klingons were basically just a slightly improved version of Monster Play, but of course the devs said that wasn't the case and fanbots didn't want to hear the comparison.  6 months later, it still doesn't sound all that different.

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by Jounar

 

First Cryptic claimed the 45 day patch would fix everything wrong with the game, then it was Season 1, then Season 2 and now it Season 3 :(

 To be fair, it was the fans who made that 45 day patch to be more than it was supposed to be; Cryptic stated early on that it was supposed to concentrate mainly on adding genesis content to the Klingon side, but the players were the ones who blew it up to be more than it was supposed to be.

 I don't know about that.  I seem to remember beta testers saying the game wasn't ready for launch with a big reason being woefully light on content, and Jackalope assuring us the 45 day patch would add lots of content.

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by Jounar

 

First Cryptic claimed the 45 day patch would fix everything wrong with the game, then it was Season 1, then Season 2 and now it Season 3 :(

 To be fair, it was the fans who made that 45 day patch to be more than it was supposed to be; Cryptic stated early on that it was supposed to concentrate mainly on adding genesis content to the Klingon side, but the players were the ones who blew it up to be more than it was supposed to be.

 I don't know about that.  I seem to remember beta testers saying the game wasn't ready for launch with a big reason being woefully light on content, and Jackalope assuring us the 45 day patch would add lots of content.

 does it matter weather it was cryptic or the fans making the 45 day patch out to be a "miracle"?

isnt the real point that within 2 or 3 weeks of launch things got so bad that everyone felt the game needed a "miracle patch"

worst part is that people are still waiting for the "miracle patch" 6 months later.... damn thats patience.