Originally posted by laokoko

I remember reading somewhere that it'll take around 200 hours of gameplay to get to max level.

You can try to google "swtor 200 hours".  I think that's what Bioware promise and what people is looking for.

 That is 200 hours of your class story arc to max level. So you could ignore the world story arc's and side quests (they will have thousands as stated from comic con) and just solo to max. But you would miss much of the game if you do.

And as far as companions taking player spots from an earlier post. You can only have 1 comanion out at any time. It can help you to solo, but will not take a spot in a group unless you are all very good players and play well together IMO. But they can replace a missing class. So you could have a tank and 3 DPS, then all use your healer comanion to make up for the missing class. Won't be as good, but sounds like it can work. 

Originally posted by Danwarr

Funny how no one seems to metion LOTRO when talking about story-based MMOs...

 That is because it was only about 10% of the quests. The epic quest lines were the story based quests, as well as raids. All other quests were kill x and bring back y. As well as boring combat that put me to sleep while playing.

As soon as your character falls behind in levels to your friends, the game will no longer be a pleasant experience of relaxed gameplay and enjoying the narrative and voiceovers but will instead be a typical grind in a rush to get caught up with the others and clicking through the NPC conversations as fast as possible so you can get back to getting the quests completed as quickly as possible.

Whether you are getting exp from completing storyline quests or from killing X amount of mobs the grind is still there.

Originally posted by Ozivois

As soon as your character falls behind in levels to your friends, the game will no longer be a pleasant experience of relaxed gameplay and enjoying the narrative and voiceovers but will instead be a typical grind in a rush to get caught up with the others and clicking through the NPC conversations as fast as possible so you can get back to getting the quests completed as quickly as possible.

Whether you are getting exp from completing storyline quests or from killing X amount of mobs the grind is still there.

 

Unless you fall 10-15 levels below your friend, there is no reason to start rushing.

I get what they mean by KOTOR. Leveling just happened and i was much more interested in the story and seeing what will happen than a level up. Parts got me wanting a level up for a certain skill but i quickly forgot about that because if the story is good enough it will always get you hooked and forget about the other things.

As long as there is enough content that pleases people it will be fine. Grouping or soloing. Undoubtly there will be parts at end game where you have to group up like other MMO's. People generally quit MMOs because they get bored with nothing to do but the same old crap, if you can make a grind enjoyable and end game content enjoyable, fun and a lot to do then your golden tbh.

Originally posted by artemisentr4

Originally posted by Danwarr

Funny how no one seems to metion LOTRO when talking about story-based MMOs...

 That is because it was only about 10% of the quests. The epic quest lines were the story based quests, as well as raids. All other quests were kill x and bring back y. As well as boring combat that put me to sleep while playing.

Well just about every quest has about a short-story worth of text to go along with it. I think the difference here is that ToR is going to be fully voiced.

Also, ToR is going to have "kill ten rats" quests. The only difference will be, again, fully voiced.

Turbine did change combat recently to a bit faster pace but still not "zomgineedztofacerollmahkeyboardzz!!" levels. And judging by the gameplay videos neither is ToR.

Originally posted by Danwarr

Originally posted by artemisentr4

Originally posted by Danwarr

Funny how no one seems to metion LOTRO when talking about story-based MMOs...

 That is because it was only about 10% of the quests. The epic quest lines were the story based quests, as well as raids. All other quests were kill x and bring back y. As well as boring combat that put me to sleep while playing.

Well just about every quest has about a short-story worth of text to go along with it. I think the difference here is that ToR is going to be fully voiced.

 

Also, ToR is going to have "kill ten rats" quests. The only difference will be, again, fully voiced.

You have the World Quests that resemble more the regular quests.

I expect the class story quests to resemble more the quests and missions like they were done in Mass Effect 2, with being fully voiced, but also with the cinematic feel, the dialogue wheel, the way you can interrupt the dialogue and the longer-term consequences the actions you take in the dialogues have, all things you don't see in as good all the other MMO's.

On top of that, you have the Companions that interact in the quest dialogues and they and their relation with you will change based on the decisions you make in the quests. Also, when you group up everyone participates in the quest dialogue. Those are features that applies to the World Quests and world arcs too.

Sounds to me that there are enough differences with LotrO and other MMO's, and maybe/hopefully enough to make it feel less like all the quests are the same - FedEx, kill x of y, etc -  with different text tagged on to it like with a lot of other MMO's.

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by Danwarr

Originally posted by artemisentr4

Originally posted by Danwarr

Funny how no one seems to metion LOTRO when talking about story-based MMOs...

 That is because it was only about 10% of the quests. The epic quest lines were the story based quests, as well as raids. All other quests were kill x and bring back y. As well as boring combat that put me to sleep while playing.

Well just about every quest has about a short-story worth of text to go along with it. I think the difference here is that ToR is going to be fully voiced.

 

Also, ToR is going to have "kill ten rats" quests. The only difference will be, again, fully voiced.

You have the World Quests that resemble more the regular quests.

I expect the class story quests to resemble more the quests and missions like they were done in Mass Effect 2, with being fully voiced, but also with the cinematic feel, the dialogue wheel, the way you can interrupt the dialogue and the longer-term consequences the actions you take in the dialogues have, all things you don't see in as good all the other MMO's.

 

On top of that, you have the Companions that interact in the quest dialogues and they and their relation with you will change based on the decisions you make in the quests. Also, when you group up everyone participates in the quest dialogue. Those are features that applies to the World Quests and world arcs too.

 

Sounds to me that there are enough differences with LotrO and other MMO's, and maybe/hopefully enough to make it feel less like all the quests are the same - FedEx, kill x of y, etc -  with different text tagged on to it like with a lot of other MMO's.

When it comes right down to it, the bare bones of the quests are going to be FedEx and kill xy style quests. The only difference, like you said, is going to be the amount of player interaction with the quest and the dialogue.

What I hope the dialogue will do is make the quests immerse people  in the world more than a wall of text can. I've noticed that if I have taken the time to read quests I find little things that can make me laugh or better understand the whole of what is going in the game world. What ToR will do, hopefully, is make it that a cinematic experience rather than a reading experience.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

For the solo vs group thing, I think of it like this.

Solo players get jealous of group players earn more XP in groups than they do solo. But if you make the entire game soloable for the same xp, it pretty much dumbs it down for the groupers until there's no challenge.

In this case, the conflict will not be over XP, but story content.

Group players will get reward with more Story, instead of more XP, which will make the game feel challenging, to get through all the group story content.

There needs to be SOME reason to group.

I kill a Mob and get 10 xp.

Ok, let's group, kill two Mobs, and get 10 xp each.

Why? What's the point? None.

In decent grouping games the "point" is, we get 15 XP each instead of 10, and have to use different tactics to get it, and the mob is tougher than either of us could kill alone.

In this game the "point" of grouping will be you get to access the world story. 

 I don't know about any of this.   I solo because I despise the inconveniences of grouping.    I am very much looking forward to this game not just because I loved the first KOTORs and enjoy Bioware's storytelling.   I am looking forward to it because you will be able to play your entire storyline out without once being required to group!    Oh happy day!

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

For the solo vs group thing, I think of it like this.

Solo players get jealous of group players earn more XP in groups than they do solo. But if you make the entire game soloable for the same xp, it pretty much dumbs it down for the groupers until there's no challenge.

In this case, the conflict will not be over XP, but story content.

Group players will get reward with more Story, instead of more XP, which will make the game feel challenging, to get through all the group story content.

There needs to be SOME reason to group.

I kill a Mob and get 10 xp.

Ok, let's group, kill two Mobs, and get 10 xp each.

Why? What's the point? None.

In decent grouping games the "point" is, we get 15 XP each instead of 10, and have to use different tactics to get it, and the mob is tougher than either of us could kill alone.

In this game the "point" of grouping will be you get to access the world story. 

 I don't know about any of this.   I solo because I despise the inconveniences of grouping.    I am very much looking forward to this game not just because I loved the first KOTORs and enjoy Bioware's storytelling.   I am looking forward to it because you will be able to play your entire storyline out without once being required to group!    Oh happy day!

Actually 8 different stories, if you play all the different classes.

But I think you will miss out on the world story, if you exclusively solo. But you will do your solo story, and get to the level cap.

The devs explained it like, Luke goes to Degaba to train with Yoda.

That's your Jedi story, and you can do that solo.

But there's also a battle on Hoth. you probably need some friends to help with that. Or you can skip it.

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by uquipu
 

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Originally posted by Papadam
So why will it be the end of solo vs group??
 
And to bad you cant play it Ihmotepp since its going to have microtransactions :p

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.
SWTOR is going to have a cash shop? Seriously?

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The devs won't say exactly what they have planned until closer to release when it comes to a cash shop. They won't say there's a cash shop where you can buy XP potions, they won't say there is not a cash shop where yuo can buy xp potions.
So there is rampant speculation, everything from no cash shop, to only fluff, to OMG! it will be subscription with a full cash shop of uber items! ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it will be the end of solo versus group, because you won't be playing for XP. The XP will be secondary to doing the story.
.....

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Cash Shop/Store/MT or Not is the question for me. Everything else about SW:TOR I think I would enjoy.

But if there is a CashShop/Store/MT the question about solo vs. group is irrelevant... the answer will be No.

Originally posted by Gardavil2

 

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by uquipu
 

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Originally posted by Papadam
So why will it be the end of solo vs group??
 
And to bad you cant play it Ihmotepp since its going to have microtransactions :p

---

.
SWTOR is going to have a cash shop? Seriously?

---

 
The devs won't say exactly what they have planned until closer to release when it comes to a cash shop. They won't say there's a cash shop where you can buy XP potions, they won't say there is not a cash shop where yuo can buy xp potions.
So there is rampant speculation, everything from no cash shop, to only fluff, to OMG! it will be subscription with a full cash shop of uber items! ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it will be the end of solo versus group, because you won't be playing for XP. The XP will be secondary to doing the story.
.....

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Cash Shop/Store/MT or Not is the question for me. Everything else about SW:TOR I think I would enjoy.

But if there is a CashShop/Store/MT the question about solo vs. group is irrelevant... the answer will be No.

I agree. And I can see no advantage to not releasing the information if there isnt going to be a cash shop.  After all the cool trailers and information on the good aspects, look for the revelation that there will indeed be a CS.

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Originally posted by Philby

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
 

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by uquipu
 

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Originally posted by Papadam
So why will it be the end of solo vs group??
 
And to bad you cant play it Ihmotepp since its going to have microtransactions :p

---

.
SWTOR is going to have a cash shop? Seriously?

---

 
The devs won't say exactly what they have planned until closer to release when it comes to a cash shop. They won't say there's a cash shop where you can buy XP potions, they won't say there is not a cash shop where yuo can buy xp potions.
So there is rampant speculation, everything from no cash shop, to only fluff, to OMG! it will be subscription with a full cash shop of uber items! ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it will be the end of solo versus group, because you won't be playing for XP. The XP will be secondary to doing the story.
.....

---

Cash Shop/Store/MT or Not is the question for me. Everything else about SW:TOR I think I would enjoy.
But if there is a CashShop/Store/MT the question about solo vs. group is irrelevant... the answer will be No.

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I agree. And I can see no advantage to not releasing the information if there isnt going to be a cash shop.  After all the cool trailers and information on the good aspects, look for the revelation that there will indeed be a CS.

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That is exactly what has been bothering me as well...

.... In the MMO genre no news is BAD news generally.

There was a long time no news about space combat. But then the information was released when the Bioware people were ready to announce it. So no news doesn't necessarily mean bad news.

I don't see where this warped idea comes from that SW TOR at start will have more of a cash shop or micro transactions than WoW, LotrO, EQ2, AoC or WAR (used to) have.

                This was actually a very good follow up to the Panel discussion.  You are exactly right on Biowares games... you are leveling your character to a high enough level to beat the game, but you don't notice because of the story.  This is what I've been looking forward to with TOR, because I don't see TOR being anything different.  There will be enough solo, world, and flashpoint storylines to level you to your cap and it won't be a dull.  You hit this right on the head OP.  And I can't stress enough how excited I am to roll Alts.  

                    I LOVE rolling alts more than anything in WoW and going back through the world, but sadly there's no engrossing story.... I mean there is, KINDA, but I mean you really have to dig and find little letters and stuff.. but all in all there's not much connection on your quests in STV, and say  Arathi Highlands....it's just 2 different areas you can grind quests to level through your 30s.. .  I HATE the end game treadmill, which is why I roll alts, but TOR will not have this problem for me... and hell, after leveling my first Main through the storyline.. I'll proably be so connected with that character, I will probably do everything the game offers at the cap, whatever that may be.  And a huge bonus to this.. is what's waiting for me on my next Alt. :)  It's just very exciting to think about.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

For the solo vs group thing, I think of it like this.

Solo players get jealous of group players earn more XP in groups than they do solo. But if you make the entire game soloable for the same xp, it pretty much dumbs it down for the groupers until there's no challenge.

In this case, the conflict will not be over XP, but story content.

Group players will get reward with more Story, instead of more XP, which will make the game feel challenging, to get through all the group story content.

There needs to be SOME reason to group.

I kill a Mob and get 10 xp.

Ok, let's group, kill two Mobs, and get 10 xp each.

Why? What's the point? None.

In decent grouping games the "point" is, we get 15 XP each instead of 10, and have to use different tactics to get it, and the mob is tougher than either of us could kill alone.

In this game the "point" of grouping will be you get to access the world story. 

 I don't know about any of this.   I solo because I despise the inconveniences of grouping.    I am very much looking forward to this game not just because I loved the first KOTORs and enjoy Bioware's storytelling.   I am looking forward to it because you will be able to play your entire storyline out without once being required to group!    Oh happy day!

There has never been an MMORPG that did not allow you to solo to max level.  There has never been an MMORPG that did not allow you to develop your character story arc solo.  The "ONLY" requirement to group in any MMORPG mainstream or otherwise has been in order to establish "MULTIPLAYER" mechanics within the gamespace.  Grouping has only ever been required to experience group content or raid content.

So technically all MMORPGs have what you want in them.  You are either lacking the mental prowess required to recognize this or you are unable to assertain what it is that you truly want from your MMORPG experience.

However, say this with me:  MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER means playing with lots of other people.

SW:TOR is going to dissapoint a lot of people because they will see nothing but the goals and achievements they cannot accomplish solo rather than the solo experience that is truly availible to them just as in every MMORPG before it.  There has never been a SOLO vs GROUP arguement.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I was watching this video:

http://comic-con.gamespot.com/video/6270912/

From around minute 9 to minute 10:20 or so is what I thought was so interesting.

 

Have you played any bioware games, like KOTOR for example?

In KOTOR the leveling is fun. But you're not really playing to level. You're playing to get through the story, and leveling is a bonus.

That's what paper and pencil Dungeons and dragons used to be. YEs, you leveled, but what was fun was the story you made up together.

Devs blow smoke out of their ass, so maybe this won't pan out. But when they said, we played our game, and it doesn't FEEL like any MMORPG you've ever played, I thought they were on to something.

I was skeptical about the whole "story" thing in the beginning, but I think that was indeed the missing link.

The story in MMORPGs just sucks out lout. Go get me 10 rats tails, blah, blah, blah. Go take this letter to Finkeldorpah, blah, blah, blah.

Which is why quest grinding is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring.

But KOTOR and other bioware games aren't like that. You actually get engrossed in the story because it's told so well.

And they are doing voiceovers, cut scenes, the works.

And that's why alts can be frustrating. Oh man, I got to deliver a letter to Finkeldoprpa AGAIN! and it was boooorrrrrringg the first time.

PLUS they have multiplayer stories. This sounds like the most fun ever in an MMORPG to me, where we all get to decide together what will happen next in the story. Well, the devs describe it better than me.

So you're not just quest grinding to the level cap, you're experiencing the story, and many players will want to do the multiplayer stories, I think.

And you'll WANT to roll an alt, to see the story of that class, which will be different. I could be wrong, but I think this one will be a game changer.

In other words, I'll actually WANT to do some of the content solo, because it won't be as boring as watching paint dry, and the group content will be even better.

As i try to explain in this http://askaboutpuzzles.blogspot.com/2010/08/star-wars-old-republic-please-save-us.html blog post, the difference, if there is one, is in the scope... and you mentioned it already... it's where our minds are set during playtime.

In most MMO's players dont care about story, they want gear and levels to get more powerful... and it's a non-challenging experience because it only takes time.

But stories can be non-challenging too, if all they require is you reading, it would feel like a tvshow challenge, keeping up. That's not good enuff in an MMO. Stories and choices SHOULD make for a greater scope which is your character's career and psychological condition... if you don't follow the story and make the right decisions, you might end-up with a character that first of all has to kill innocents and steal and be hated by everyone, and he might be insane... naturally there's attractives even in this condition, every "career" should be fun to play, but maybe the player didn't want that, and in any case he will be aware that what his character IS is the result of ALL his actions and decisions. That's a GOOD feeling.

But these kind of HARSH consequences are probably not what players like, they might frustrate them, even depress them... they're not VERY suited for the more casual players who want simple mild entertainment.

So will Bioware FORCE the player into thinking about story and choices, OR will they make the game more friendly and mild for the easy-players? In the last case stories will not matter, WE will still skip the text, play for the gear and the levels, even if, as you said, "stories are well written".

Originally posted by cyphers

There was a long time no news about space combat. But then the information was released when the Bioware people were ready to announce it. So no news doesn't necessarily mean bad news.

 

I don't see where this warped idea comes from that SW TOR at start will have more of a cash shop or micro transactions than WoW, LotrO, EQ2, AoC or WAR (used to) have.

My warped idea isnt if it will have "more" of a cash shop than game xxx,  its if there will be a cash shop at all. If there isnt going to be a cash shop why wouldnt they say so?  After all, the news of no cash shop would be a good selling point. It matters not to me when the information of a cash shop being included is released but to the devs im sure keeping it on the down low and setting the hook with info on space combat and lots of cool trailers and game play footage would be to their advantage.