Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by SpeedMann

If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.

That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge.  However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment.  On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'.  On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so). 

Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments.  Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.

Originally posted by jaxsundane

 I noticed that after reading through some responses and apologize for doing what I usually speak against (responding to posts without reading the entire content) and I touched on that in an edit of my original post that I would certainly like to read up on how a game like that could work out but again in the end it is not something I would have any interest in playing only seeing how or if it would really work for those playing it.  I have seen some great ideas bandied since realizing this isn't a rehash of the old debate especially the one about having a family name and taking up the causes of those characters.  But I think these ideas are largely impossible, what if I can only play once a week while others get to play six days a week?  Does the game take actual play time into account or is it real time based?  Will I be forced to take a few months off only to come back and find out my toon died of old age?  And if not how do I reconcile that my toon has been alive for some one thousand years while everyone else he knew is dead icluding his own children that he never had?

I do apologize again for making assumptions about what the context of the post was but I think it would still not change my opinion that this would be a very niche game that couldn't cost much money to make or maintain because there simply would not be many playing it.

Another problem I have with the idea of these changing worlds is I'm one who usually finds it loathe to have to start a new game to have to figure out who everyone is and where everything is at and I would certainy not like having to do that every month.

Lots of good questions.  I would imagine that a game with a more involved, changing world, would "require" players to be more involved, and may not support the style of play you prefer.  Or maybe characters never "log out".  Of course the player logs out, but does that also mean the character has to fade away until the player logs back in?  Who knows.   

I wouldn't argue with the idea that such a game would be a "niche" game.  It would undoubtably be entirely different than anything currently in existence, and more than likely would not appeal to the masses.  

Originally posted by Cephus404

Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments.  Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.

waiumad?

Originally posted by Torik

If you want permadeath to be more than just a skill test then you have to figure out what more it can give to players in terms of actual gameplay.  The reason it is dismissed by so many people is that it does not really add anything to gameplay except a feeling of 'leetness'.

But then what is "gameplay"?  I agree that permadeath is not compatible with the gameplay of today's games, but is the gameplay of today the one-true-definition of gameplay?  Must all games be primarily focused on hack/slash cardboard mob bashing?  What if the "gameplay" is participating in the evolution of a virtual world, and part of that involves a natural end-of-life for all living things in the world?  Yes that has nothing to do with today's games, but would it be gameplay?

I was thinking of permadeath this morning and, to keep things short(er), the idea that I came to was:

1.) One class with full permadeath. This class is the most powerful class in the game, and is balanced by the fact that a single death at any time takes you back to character creation. I mulled over how to handle lag and disconnects, but didn't come to a conclusion that I felt happy with... but I didn't put much thought into it, either.

2.) An "off spring" based character. Once they die, their "off spring" inherits some of their abilities, or a knack for their family's strongest skills and thus allowing those skills to increase at twice the speed. They would also leave a "will" to their "off spring" so that the new character inherits a certain percentage of the previous character's wealth and / or items, with the rest taken for taxes or whatever. This character would need to tend to their "off spring" (or the funds for their "off spring") in some form or another.

3.) A ghost-based, semi-permadeath class.  With this class, the death of the character spawns the ghost at a random location in the world. The distance from the character's body could be determined by averaging the amount of time that the player has spent logged-in each session over the past week. Give the ghost a time limit to get back to the character's body, with a "spirit realm" full of monsters (think WoW's ghost, except dangerous) and what have yous. The physical body can be eaten by wandering animals & mobs, but could also be burried by other players; if burried, this would create a mini-game for the ghost once they return to the body. The mini-game is used to determine if the character is able to dig themselves out of their grave. If unsuccessful then the character remains in ghost form and can progress from there, but the destruction of the ghost would be the "Final Death" and it's back to character creation.

4.) Standard MMORPG characters that serve as the crafters of the world. The characters of these players do not deal with the daily dangers faced by the other classes and they don't need to stress over the potential loss of their character. These players could engage in "corporate espionage" as a form of "pvp" or as a form of "danger", but they would lose some assets and not their character; this "dangerous" game would be optional. At the highest (and thus most difficult) levels the death of these characters could happen by way of other #4 players hiring assassins to perform a "hit" on their opponents, but such a hit would only remove the character from the world temporarily (the length of which could depend on the level of the assassin, but probably wouldn't be longer than a day).

All of the above exist in the same game world, thus the game has 5 classes (counting the ghost) with a few potential sub-classes ("alternate advancement") that exist for #4.

Points:

#1 could be hunted by the other players to further balance their strength. Think dragons in the unfortunately dead Trials of Ascension.

#4 could avoid the all of the PvP action, but the trade is that they would not amass the greatest wealth and political power in the game world.

All but #1 could retire to become characters of group #4, giving up the dangerous life to become rich barons, CEOs, dukes, or whatever.

Originally posted by SpeedMann

If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.

That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.

I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.

But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.

Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.

Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.

In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.

As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.

Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.

But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SpeedMann

If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.

That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.

I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.

But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.

Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.

Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.

In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.

As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.

Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.

But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.

 But the question remains: How long can one repeat the same low lvl dungeons over and over without going insane?

Meh, I think the simple anwser to this would be to have two characters.

When one dies he is locked for the rest of the day and you have to play the second.

If he dies then he is also locked.

Its a fair system without people having to give up all their items while still punshing them.

Its like in a huge PvP war when a person dies they cannot respawn and prolong the war.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by SpeedMann

If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.

That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge.  However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment.  On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'.  On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so). 

Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments.  Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.

This.

Its a videogame, your not writing an award winning novel, there is no accomplishment here, anymore thn there is in clue or monopoly.

Originally posted by Wrender

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SpeedMann

If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.

That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.

I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.

But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.

Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.

Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.

In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.

As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.

Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.

But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.

 But the question remains: How long can one repeat the same low lvl dungeons over and over without going insane?

That's something I've considered when thinking about the whole permadeath concept.

I think that, again, the answer lies with the permadeath people. It might not be an issue because they are thinking about the experience in a different way.

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by jaxsundane

 I noticed that after reading through some responses and apologize for doing what I usually speak against (responding to posts without reading the entire content) and I touched on that in an edit of my original post that I would certainly like to read up on how a game like that could work out but again in the end it is not something I would have any interest in playing only seeing how or if it would really work for those playing it.  I have seen some great ideas bandied since realizing this isn't a rehash of the old debate especially the one about having a family name and taking up the causes of those characters.  But I think these ideas are largely impossible, what if I can only play once a week while others get to play six days a week?  Does the game take actual play time into account or is it real time based?  Will I be forced to take a few months off only to come back and find out my toon died of old age?  And if not how do I reconcile that my toon has been alive for some one thousand years while everyone else he knew is dead icluding his own children that he never had?

I do apologize again for making assumptions about what the context of the post was but I think it would still not change my opinion that this would be a very niche game that couldn't cost much money to make or maintain because there simply would not be many playing it.

Another problem I have with the idea of these changing worlds is I'm one who usually finds it loathe to have to start a new game to have to figure out who everyone is and where everything is at and I would certainy not like having to do that every month.

Lots of good questions.  I would imagine that a game with a more involved, changing world, would "require" players to be more involved, and may not support the style of play you prefer.  Or maybe characters never "log out".  Of course the player logs out, but does that also mean the character has to fade away until the player logs back in?  Who knows.   

I wouldn't argue with the idea that such a game would be a "niche" game.  It would undoubtably be entirely different than anything currently in existence, and more than likely would not appeal to the masses.  

 It is though as you said pretty intruiging to ponder.  I actually love posts like this one when the community can get there creative juices flowing and get a dialogue going would be interesting to see what kind of things one could do with a game where the player logged out but the character didn't.

Devs would be impressed about how big the permadeath community are.

The 1st company with the balls to make a permadeath mmo will get the big prize.

Its  not difficult to make one, just take some tex-based examples.

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by SpeedMann

If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.

That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge.  However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment.  On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'.  On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so). 

Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments.  Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.

This.

Its a videogame, your not writing an award winning novel, there is no accomplishment here, anymore thn there is in clue or monopoly.

Yup.  I am so sick and tired of all the pathetic losers who are trying to live vicariously through a video game and thinking everyone else ought to ride them around on their shoulders because they killed a bunch of pixels with an animated sword.  If that's where they get their jollies, fine.  Just don't expect any accolades from me, or anyone else for that matter, because you're living in your mother's basement.  Come on back when you cure cancer or something.  Until then, color me not impressed.

Originally posted by KinePs3

Devs would be impressed about how big the permadeath community are.

 

The 1st company with the balls to make a permadeath mmo will get the big prize.

 

Its  not difficult to make one, just take some tex-based examples.

Prove it's large.  Go ahead.  Come up with actual evidence for your claim or stop making it.

To do otherwise is dishonest.

Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments.  Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.

Oh yes, that will become one of my signatures.  

Originally posted by KinePs3

Devs would be impressed about how big the permadeath community are.

 

The 1st company with the balls to make a permadeath mmo will get the big prize.

 

Its  not difficult to make one, just take some tex-based examples.

The 1st company to make a permadeath mmo will be teh first and last one to do so, since no other studios gonna wanna do one after that company crashes and burns.

I had a level 99 Barb in Diablo 2 hardcore mode, and a level 84 sorc.  The only problem I didn't like about it was in act 4, the stupid death mages casted iron maiden, 1 hit kill against my whirlwind barb :( but I just used dual throw for that act hehe.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Falfeir

Originally posted by Mellow44

You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.

No?

Then shut the fuck up please.

and people he kills will delete their chars also?

manners please

What difference does that make?  You have no right whatsoever to force anyone else to play the game your way, period.  If you want permadeath, kill your own character.  If you have to have everyone else play like you do, you're a control freak.

Get over it.

What i meant and you missed is, obviously, deleting your own character when killed and permadeath is not the same thing. Its about challenge and bragging; if you didnt know that, well, welcome to mmos. Actually welcome to any competitive activity.

No ones forcing you or anyone else to play their way; OPs questioning why there isnt a permadeath mmo and proposing that there can be based on his mud experience. (which i disagree)

i should get over what? i didnt get that part.

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Originally posted by Torik

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Originally posted by Falfeir

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Originally posted by Mellow44

You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.
No?
Then shut the fuck up please.

---

 
and people he kills will delete their chars also?
 
manners please

---

Of course they will if they subscribe to the same 'permadeath' playstyle as he does.  Or are you suggesting that he would want to 'permakill' characters belonging to players who do not want to play by 'permadeath rules'?  The would be immoral.

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nope. i meant permadeath and deleting your char is not the same thing (since almost every mmo out there assumes you'll die eventually if not frequently and a challenge not realized by others is not really a challenge) so the suggestion killing your char is invalid.
 
edit.
 
bad Torik, you already said (and better worded) what i meant. :P
 

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Originally posted by Torik
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge.  However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment.  On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'.  On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).

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Originally posted by Andromedus1

What amazes me is that in the OP I described a whole class of real MMOs which existed and in which permadeath was the rule - and they thrived.  Yet nearly every reply tiresomely states that permadeath would never work, ignoring the fact that it already has (in fact, many times).  I further analyzed why they fell out of favor, and argued why and how they could be brought back - yet not a single response addresses that core argument.  Me thinks most readers do not have the patience for reading...but perhaps I doth protest too much.

 The OP was incredibly long, you can't blame people for scanning it.

Not all MUDS were perma-death, in fact most weren't.

You state that permadeath has in fact worked many times. Besides from hard-core MUDs 10 years ago, can you state some examples please? I think you'll find that even 10 years ago it was a niche market. MMO's have moved on since then.

Whereas Jimmy Smith can code and run a MUD from home, these days millions of dollars are invested in making AAA MMO's and they need to have mass appeal. The question is, can you find hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that agree that perma-death is a good idea? I doubt it, yet those are the figures that companies judge "success" from these days.

On top of that, the community has changed. Whereas during MUD times even your worst enemy might help you out (even if it was so he could kill you later), people in WOW rage-quit after they die once in a group (with almost NO death-penalties).

I agree with you that people do invest more in their characters the harsher the penalty for death is, and it can lead to character-driven content like politics etc.

When it comes down to it though, dying isn't fun, and there are way too many uncontrollable factors that might mean your hundreds of hours of effort wiped out in a moment.

I'm not saying perma-death is a bad idea, or that it's not implementable. I'm just saying that I didn't play perma-death MUD's back when I was MUDing for the exact same reason I wouldn't play one now...the risk vs reward just isn't worth it to me.