Originally posted by Surfrider

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Kyleran

I'm just going say thank you to Curt for all the great responses and also thank the rest of the posters who've made this one of the best threads I've ever read in these forums. (and I've read a ton of threads, believe me)

Its restored my faith in humanity. 

Heck, I might even break my own rule and pre-order.

Nah!, Not yet anyway. 

 

 I have to agree.  I'm a bit taken aback at how civil and levelheaded everyone is being in this thread.It's also nice to see Curt responding to posters and being straight and honest in his feedback.

Definitely one of the few threads that stands out to me from this forum in some time.

 

I couldn't agree more Wicked and Kyleran.  This thread should be the standard.

Thanks to Curt and the Community for a great discussion!

Surfrider, do you know if MMORPG.com did an interview with 38 Studios while at E3?  I've been hoping to see an article here about that, if so.

Originally posted by Rohn

Surfrider, do you know if MMORPG.com did an interview with 38 Studios while at E3?  I've been hoping to see an article here about that, if so.

I don't, but will check.

Originally posted by Surfrider

Originally posted by Rohn

Surfrider, do you know if MMORPG.com did an interview with 38 Studios while at E3?  I've been hoping to see an article here about that, if so.

I don't, but will check.

Thanks much!  :)

curt, any baseball predictions for this year?

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I don't see why he needs to "hold his horses". If the guy doesn't post what he likes (and he isn't the only one) how on earth is he ever going to be able to have a chance and a modern made game possessing some or all of those qualities?

Out of the 4 listed I don't see how any of those are contradictory. I can see how some would take more thought and work to implement well and as challeneges are meant to be overcome it can be conquered. It just comes down to will and planning.

 What is contradictory is the asumption that is "what the majority wants".  Just because it sounds great or what you or I are looking for in a game does not mean that is what the majority feels.

Ah, well, maybe he should have left that part out. Aside from those 4 words, however, his post was perfectly fine and very relative to the current climate.

It just makes me wonder a bit that if Curt and 38 Studios is aiming for just another themepark game chasing after WoW numbers as opposed to going after a niche, making it their own and then growing it, why bother bringing in Salvatore and McFarlane. If you aren't striving for something with more depth, and I means actually manifesting the answers to the questions "why? and "how?" via game mechanics, why bring these big names on commanding big salaries?

Don't know what kind of player Curt was, though, just from reading the interviews of him talking about gaming so it's hard to envision what he values in a gaming experience or to gauge how sensitive he is to those desires of others.

(no offence by me talking about you in third person Mr. Schilling (cause obviously you are reading this forum at some time, heh) but I'm not going to presume that you will answer these questions directly)

I want to re-iterate that I, personally, prefer skill based systems to class based systems and do enjoy the features the oringal post I responed to asked for.

But:

1) That is not necessarily the majority of people

2) There ARE problems with skills based systems.

One of the problems with skill based systems is balance and polish.  It is simply much easier to control and test a class system.  It is easier for PvP balance.  It is easier for group content balance and easier for players to form groups.  You have much more of a known quantity.

Structure has its advantages.  Free men are not equal and equal men are not free.  This is a maxim that is hard to get around.  These things can be double edged swords.  I think CoH has done an interesting job with its Archetypes and power sets in trying to have a bit of both freedom and constrained roles, but I don't know of any game or even RPG system that has been able to skirt that maxim.

I highly encourage people to be very very careful about what you ask a Developer to do (speaking as a software engineer). 

When you ask for a skill based system and then ask for PvP with a high degree of polish and balance you are setting the bar VERY VERY high.  Even with Guild Wars, which is much better balanced than many MMOs, they still use classes to some degree and have hard 8 skill limit to aid in balancing skills.  Extreme openended-ness rarely results in anything even resembling balance.  It probably theoretically can, but its been spotty at best.

Secondly in the broader context of more recent posts I would like to say that I personally am not a huge sandbox person.  I like the idea of being able to affect the world from a stroy point of view but in general for day to day fun I like to have directed activities.  There are some interestng hybrid sandbox things that can be regularly fun.  For example control points in Tabula Rasa were great.  A  sort of PvE sandbox thing that you could reliably goto and affects to state of the world to some degree.

So while I prefer skills based highly customizable character building of the type you find in many sandbox games I am not really a true sandbox player I don't want all or even most content left up to the player.  I just want to do things MY WAY.

Also highly customizable system do not need to be skills based.  CoH is highly customizable and not skill based.  In some sense it is more customizable than many skills baseds system which tend to a cookie cutter effect in practice if not theory.

Mr. Schilling,

I truly hope your game doesn't suck monkey-balls.

Very Respectfully,

38 Studios to Reveal Mercury at Comic Con

Please be good.  No, please be GREAT.  This is, after all, our introduction to the Copernicus IP.

Sure is. That sound you hear is me letting a HUGE gulp of air out, finally seeing a chance to breath, and talk:)

GL at Comic Con Curt.

Much appreciated. Going to be AWESOME to finally be able to speak to what's actually happening!

I am assuming that people here that play single player RPG's have heard about Reckoning since the release. If not here's sort of a one stop shop to read everything about it, Copernicus, and 38, since the reveal this year.

Thank you for posting the link. I had no idea the 38watch.com was even in existance until now. I'll be sure to register and continue to follow the game.  Looking great so far!

Originally posted by popsideath

The thing I think many devs forget is that in MMORPGs (and all games, really) the story doesn't have to be told, so much as experienced.  Too many games now try to force-feed the players a story or lore through scripts and linear in-game events or more often just a ton of reading.  But it's just information.  Information alone doesn't make one feel involved in the story.

 

Oddly enough, despite being weak on 'story' in many ways, EQ was the game where I felt it the most.  From the beginning choosing dieties (and it felt important!), to the end and getting to kill those dieties, I felt like I was IN the story.  I didn't need to be the hero, as it felt right-enough to just feel as if I was a meaningful, active participant in the world.  When you logged into Neriak as a Dark Elf noob for the first time, you weren't 'told' a story, but you felt as if a story had begun, like you were IN the adventure.  And let me tell you, spending weeks getting enough faction to bank in the wood-elf city was one of the most connected feelings I've ever felt in a game.  Wood elfs hated me, I knew they hated orcs, so I slaughtered orcs until they loved me... very basic stuff and didn't involve any fancy events or scripts, but I sure felt a part of a world that felt very meaningful and alive, and thus was making my own story.

 

That's one of the things missing in games these days.  They can have all the cut-scenes and lore that tells you who you are, who the bad guys are, etc... but that doesn't mean the players will feel it.  In WoW I was told these things, but never felt them.  In EQ, when you made a character, you FELT that you were that race, you felt a part of the world, a sense of belonging.  EQ was ironically the kind of game/feeling where pretty much everyone was a role player, to some extent, because everyone felt they had a role and place in the world.  You had true connections to other players of your race.

 

And yes, a lot of the feelings of belong and connectedness came from the struggles in the game.  Adventures were had  because you HAD to have them to survive.  Think about that.  The game didn't have a ton of intricate quests (nothing wrong with that if done right).  You simply had to band together and fight and scrap and learn to survive, and the game felt alive because of it, the game felt epic.

 

Now?  Blah.  Some games do okay, I guess.  Vanguard wasn't too bad (despite being broke to hell).  You felt a sense of kinship with your race and the lore/quests were good though you'd drown in text fast.  It was just so desolate and starting areas so isolated, removed from higher levels and things that mattered, that sense of belonging was lonely and didn't translate into anything worthwhile.

 

Most games, like WoW, try to infuse the game with story and lore, but it always felt contrived like someone was trying to tell me lore and how I should be feeling and reacting to the world.  As a writer, I can tell you, this is the last way to get someone on your side and get them actually feeling what you want them to feel.  Don't tell me these things, make me feel them, and you'll hook me for a long time. 

 

I couldn't agree more.

The story should never be told, if I want to read a story I'll pick up a book. I don't pay for an MMORPG to read a story, I pay to experience an adventure and be part of the world. Not to be told that I am this and I have to do that.

I don't remember my XX Quest Based MMORPG memories by saying "Oh I remember when I was told I am the chosen one and I had to kill 10 rats" instead I remember that moment when I fell off the cursed well in Befallen and had to pay a druid to get me out or that moment when I got lost in the dark in greater faydark (my first day) and then to directly communicate with the players to find a kind druid in wolf form helping me.

I stopped reading text or watching cut scene it got old... very old. It's boring, I had enough. I doubt anyone feels excited about Quest Text or Cut Scenes that are FORCED on them. It exciting the first time it was done, not anymore. Specially all the games being developed will have that. People will get enough of this thing. I appreciate World Lore that I can CHOOSE to read more about.

The MMORPG needs lore but doesn't need a story otherwise it will feel restricting. Lore is like why this race lives underworld and that race lives on trees. Why Ogres hate Gnomes and why Gnomes are afraid of cat people. What happened in this ruins 1,000 years ago? it looked messed up.. I need to find out, oh there's a book.. I will read that book later but first I need to go inside the ruins and discover its mysteries.

Dynamic Events, Stories, Dynamic World, Affecting the World, World Changing.. all this is just an illusion. It might sound like a brilliant idea in theory but in the end it's artificial no matter how you script it or program it. Unless you hire a dedicated person for each server doing unique and random stuff then I don't really think it will be attractive.

Keep the content static but give players the "dynamic" tools. Static content is individually designed and never scripted. Unlike dynamic content which is usually generated by a computer or a script. I'd rather explore a dungeon created by a game designer with its own lore and they gave their own time doing it. Than fending off a scripted invasion.

You can always make the static content a blast of an experience if it was hard and dangerous. Then you will see that adrenaline pumping and people going emotional about the experience. Also, social skills are always good I don't know why we don't see social skills anymore. It's something like Teleportaion for Druids/Wizards when they used to "Taxi" people. Or the necromancer/SK summoning corpses for people who lost their corpses. You create a community by adding such skills that other players might need.