Define "SKILL" in a mmo..   That needs to be done first.. Until you do, everyone will dance around to the beat of a different drummer..  To some, skill is "twitch" hand / eye coordination ability.  To others mental awareness and logic is better.. A perfect example is a typical boss raid in most games.. I have seen players with excellent  twitch control, but had NO clue in logically beating the boss fight..  In most raids you need a variety of skill sets to be successful..

Just like in football.. I've seen quarterbacks with strong accurate arms that could throw a football thru an open window of a speeding car at 40 yards..... BUT couldn't read a blitz package if their life counted on it...... and vice versa..  Just look at Bernie Kosar.. One of the ugliest looking quaterback styles ever in the pros.. BUT, his mental awareness made up for any flaws in his style.. lol

So..... skill is subjective and there are different variables to take into consideration.. :)

I disagree that "twitch combat" is the only measure of skill.  Also, for most current MMO's twitch combat skill is often no more than low ping advantage.

Everquest required a lot of skill.  You had to know your class, your role in a group, monster resists, and time your actions to take into account internet latency.  Players developed all sorts of tactics such as fear kiting, hate kiting, charming, root and DoT, tactics for pulling single mobs from a group of mobs, minstrel interleaving (twisting) of songs in addition to the usual tank, slow and heal group work.  Everquest started in the age of dial up connections, so twitch combat was never going to work.

While servers are distant from players, I have doubts as to whether twitch combat will ever work well in MMO's due to internet connection latencies being thousands of times slower than what can be achieved on a stand alone PC.  Are we just setting ourselves up for disappointment with expectations that are unreasonable?

In recognition of internet latencies, some twitch games coming out are saying that players need to live within 1,000 miles of the server. 

Other  twitch games are taking a different approach.  The game company's server is just a lobby where players can meet other players who live relatively close to each other.  Once the players meet up the game runs on their computers and does not run on the remotely located game company's server.

Just sharing a thought. I feel MMOs have to be careful as well where "skill" is involved. If too much emphasis is applied to this area, you are gonna see alot of players going into the game THINKING they are skilled but eventually finding out they are not so "skill-ed" afterall and may cause alot of negative feelings towards such a game. Lets face it, in reality, majority of general players think they themselves are "skill-ed", "skill-based" gameplay may have to make sufficient players wake up and smell the flowers, to an extent a large number will be unhappy at realising the contrary truth to the matter.

what is "skill"? does being good in tenis mean having "skill"? does being good in chess mean having "skill"? does being good in tenis mean being good in chess?

"skill" is not general set of abilities. it's specific set of abilities in regard to certain activity.

as for MMO, there is plenty of them where people of similar "level" and similar gear regulary win or lose, based on player's skill. want to talk WoW? people in blues or worst doing top-tier encounters, while others can't do it even when decked in purples and having a bonus, guides, and 10 levels of advantage. people in grays melting other people's faces.

one of the issues i have seen frequently: people with good skill can't recognize it. they think game (or anything else) is easy because they have easy time. they call anyone that can't compete at their level a retard. i have a very good friend that is like that. he's a good person, but he just doesn't want to accept that he is more talented than most people.

also, note that all games have two functions: entertainment and challenge. some people just like to throw ball with friends. it makes them happy. other people want to see how far they can throw the ball. it makes them happy. find a game that makes YOU happy. and if you can't find it: make it.

not every game and every gamer go hand in hand. there is no perfect game. there is no perfect gamer.

Originally posted by Rydeson

Define "SKILL" in a mmo..   That needs to be done first.. Until you do, everyone will dance around to the beat of a different drummer..  To some, skill is "twitch" hand / eye coordination ability.  To others mental awareness and logic is better.. A perfect example is a typical boss raid in most games.. I have seen players with excellent  twitch control, but had NO clue in logically beating the boss fight..  In most raids you need a variety of skill sets to be successful..

Just like in football.. I've seen quarterbacks with strong accurate arms that could throw a football thru an open window of a speeding car at 40 yards..... BUT couldn't read a blitz package if their life counted on it...... and vice versa..  Just look at Bernie Kosar.. One of the ugliest looking quaterback styles ever in the pros.. BUT, his mental awareness made up for any flaws in his style.. lol

So..... skill is subjective and there are different variables to take into consideration.. :)

EXACTLY! 

Originally posted by BioNut

This is really the crux of my issue with MMOs. They require absolutely no skill at all. I mean, there isnt a single open world MMO thats PvP or PvE  doesn't boil down to who has better gear, higher levels, better traits, etc.

 I play Jumpgate, which is an MMO that's all about twitch and skill in PvP.  How you fly your ship, how well you aim and how well you work as a team all determine battle outcomes.  Jumpgate is NOT an RPG in any way though -- more like a space sim with elements of FPS.  And while Jumpgate is technically a MMO ... it's a bit "lacking" in the "massively" component over the last few years.  But Netdevil has just dedicated some dev resource back to the game, so hopefully things will pick up.

Guild Wars PVP is based on "skill".

You can open max level PVP character on day 1 and play with it. Gear is of almost no importance. Anyways you can "open" all gear options (for PVP) within several days of game play.

Each guild in the game gets "rating", which matchs it's skill to the other guilds. When you enter a Guild-Vs-Guild game, an automated selector will select a guild matching your skill. Winning a match will improve your rating and loosing will decrease it. So very fast you will find yourself playing your rating guilds.

The game is a little low now, since everybody are waitng for GW2. I hope it will be the same in that respect.

IMO the MMO's that require skill are the ones with a more FPS approach to attacking.

Plenty of skill required in APB :P

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.

Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.

Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

-------------------------------

As for 'skills',  'skills' come in a variety of packages including

- group synergy

- situation awareness

- game knowledge

- twitch reflexes

- command experience

Look at any professional team like spain's football team. Each player including coaches will have great expertise in one or more of the following aforementioned attributes.

Originally posted by orangerascal

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.

 

Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.

Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

Used to download loads of pro starcraft replays and watch them with the APM counter on and think "Wow". The best in Korea get paid to play it so I think it justifies it :)

I'll be honest i haven't read most of this thread, but a SKILL as you say based mmo will never truly happen. Sure there will be acouple out there but their market share will be so small then most dev will not bother doing them.

Why do i say that, well simply most people that play MMO are playign a game to have fun when skill start becoming a requirement to play said mmo people will try but 90% of the people will end up quitting after the first month simply because they don't cut it and it's not fun for them.

So a pure skill MMO like you say will probably never happen and if it does it will not really be successfull simply for the fact that they won't be able to draw out enough people to make them viable.

Originally posted by orangerascal Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

Quoted for Truth.

Maps in all RTS games have a very limited 2 or 3 rstrategies, if you deviate from these then you'll just get crushed.   Once you know them its simply about micro managment, which, as pointed out is just how fast you can twitch.

I know these games are popular, but they are incredibly boring, if your doing 400 APM then it wont even be about your twitching, it will be about latency.  Desipite fast internet speeds latency is always going to be random and unreliable.   Not really a good envoiroment for determining "skill"

I've been waiting since Ultima Online redesigned their itemization in Age of Shadows.

The problem, as many have stated, is that gear progression is a GREAT way for developers to lead players around through the "content" as they see fit.  It's just easier from a development standpoint to be proactive about the content if they know in advance that everyone will be doing "this" to upgrade their gear.

And of course you get all the problems with a gear progression based MMO, like STATS > SKILL, extrinsic reward system gets players doing things they don't neccessarily enjoy doing, etc.

The key to creating a MMO that is primarily skill based is that the item system has to be relatively common or craftable.  There were magic weapons and armor in UO but it typically something used to give you an "edge" and not a rediculous advantage. 

The other key componet is that the combat system has to be relatively simple and/or uniform.  Ultima had only 2 main base classes....Mages & Warriors.  There were slight variations of the two that allowed for some tactical diversity.....but on the whole it was an even playing field with a very unique casting system that made Mage Dueling one of the first E-Sports.

In a day where MMOs are trying to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack by offering MORE stats and MORE classes.....its highly unlikely that any game devloper will be able to fully balance all class types with eachother.  Instead they adopt a Flavor Of The Month system that continueously changes all the classes so that each get their 15 min in the sun of domination over the rest.

Gaming is hard!

All that thumb and wrist workout... serious business. 

Originally posted by heerobya

Gaming is hard!

All that thumb and wrist workout... serious business. 

 I love the "relax, its a video game" card. hahaha

Once upon a time, MMORPGs were a game genere that offered a more in depth and "mature" playing experience than what you could get out of consoles.

The mainstreaming of MMORPGs by games like WOW might have set a lower set of expectations for many new comers to the MMO market....but some of us are still looking for a game that reminds us of why we migrated away from consoles (and other more casual game types) to MMORPGs.

TERA definitely has skill factored into all of its game play.

I don't like the ideal of a mmofps would be a good fit for me. I loathe fps almost as much as I hate pvp.

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by heerobya

Gaming is hard!

All that thumb and wrist workout... serious business. 

 I love the "relax, its a video game" card. hahaha

Once upon a time, MMORPGs were a game genere that offered a more in depth and "mature" playing experience than what you could get out of consoles.

World of Warcraft is infinitely more complex and in depth then Ultima Onilne.

Trust me, I was there 10+ years ago. 

Skill is relative. And is also defined differently by different people for different gameplay features. I'm satisfied playing games that my wife and son are able to play with me for the most part. I don't necessarily have to be the best at anything to enjoy it. If you want real skill-based games, you should play the multiplayer shooters that were released from 1990-2004. Though again, that is just my definition of skill. I'm sure many would argue.