What is a skilled carpenter?
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Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall?
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Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.

Originally posted by Mardy

You won't see a lot of MMO"s with twitch fps gameplay because companies want to make money, and not to cater to a small niche playerbase.  A lot of the so called "hardcore PvPers" aren't even good at twitch gameplay, so you are really looking at a small sector of the playerbase that may or may not even embrace a MMO with twitch fps.

 

I played AC1 darktide back during the early 2000's and it was great fun.  Turbine didn't design the game to be twtich but it turned out that way.  Through a glitch or two in the game, people were able to twitch play.  Now while that was fun for me, it wasn't for a lot of the people.  As you could see, AC1 catered to a very small niche playerbase, awhile games like EQ and DAOC went on to capture a large percentage of the MMO playerbase....both PvE and PvP.

 

So for you to see more twitch MMO's, you need to either somehow be able to convince companies to create games for a small niche playerbase, or you need to have a lot of money to fund your own game.

 

I think all MMO's have some sort of skills attached to it.  But perhaps OP should've replaced "skill" in the subject with "twitch" because that's what he's looking for.  Being able to twtich doesn't make you more "skilled" than the other, it simply makes you be able to twitch better than the average keyboard turner.  I've seen plenty of twitch fps players absolutely suck at RTS strategy games. 

Whoa man, lol don't put twitch or more action oriented combat in a niche category. Those are the best selling games now days. RPG's have become the niche. 

It isn't about being "Hardcore" it's about playing something more interactive thats a bit more fun that press button and wait. 

Single players have evolved to where most are action oriented because thats where the money is. There is still room for slower paced games which Dragon Age proved but look at most of the top selling games out there. I wouldn't call it a niche genre by a long shot lol. 

Originally posted by uquipu

What is a skilled carpenter?
.
Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall?
.
Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.

I miss when games did not display enemy cast bars...

No i don't need outright skill to be much of a factor in a PVE genre,for FPS's then yes ,it should be about skill AND thinking or i should say ,outthinking your opponent.

I am pretty much satisfied with the general design of FFXI's combat system.It still has tons of room for improvement,but even to this day,it has the MOST potential over any MMORPG.MOST every single rpg on the market is about running back and forth between quest npc's, i expect MANY others,couldn't care less about that design for gaming be it rpg or any game.

Until the games remove the questing purpose,then there won't be any real skill and even if there was,the design is still boring and flawed.What people/players REALLY care about is their player and what it can do in combat,we don't care about running from npc to npc,i wouldn't consider that a skill in anyone's book,Nor should i or anyone care about instance raiding.The ONLY reason to take part in that is of course to get that gear that ,you guessed it,makes your player better in combat,so it all points to gear and abilities and spells and how they are incorporated into the game.

Who does that better than FFXI?nobody else has the sub class system,except the wanna be ROM who did it VERY poorly.Nobody else has the renkai system with magic bursts,nobody else utilizesd team work more so than FFXI,so the ground work is there,it is just a matter of perfecting it or at least improving on it year after year.

I don't want to get into FFXI's cons ,such as forced grouping or whatever,i am talking merely what players DO care about ,and i already mentioned what that is.Then there is of course the icing on the cake,that can make an even greater game>>>>>crafting and gimmicks ,such as mounts,and mini games or side games,which of course FFXI has a lot of,more so than any other game,so again the ground work is there,developers can improve or expand on a good thing,or continue to make these mickey mouse questing games,and ONLY one road leads to better gaming,the other remains stagnant forever.

The stagnant design...aka WOW/EQ ect ect leads to one dimensional gaming ,no matter you side venture to attain gear in instances,the main frame of the game is to run back and forth from npc to npc doing quests,we have had enough of that poor design,it got old right about the start of EQ2 and WOW's release,it is just that for  MANY new players to the genre,it still seemed fresh,,lol but it wasn't and still is not.You cannot take games like that and claim they have an END GAME,because that is NOT the actual game,that is the gimmick to keep subscribers around,the "GAME" was over when you hit max level.

Originally posted by uquipu

What is a skilled carpenter?
.
Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall?
.
Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.

All depends on if your gcd is up :p

Originally posted by BioNut

I have been playing MMOs for a long time (Aceron's Call was my first) and I have never really been satisfied by the gameplay.  Well, why play them you ask? To be honest, I play them mostly to relax and have have some nice casual multiplayer with friends. I also play them for story and roleplaying purposes. But this said I would really like an MMO to come out that is not for casual gamers but for hardcore gamers....

...This is really the crux of my issue with MMOs. They require absolutely no skill at all. I mean, there isnt a single open world MMO thats PvP or PvE  doesn't boil down to who has better gear, higher levels, better traits, etc.

There is an exception: Guildwars. You hit max level fast (and can start with a max level PvP char if you want to, but then you would still have to unlock skills and gear) and the max level gear is very similar. Only problem here is that the world really isn't open.

I do agree that gear matters too much in most MMO and should be less important. But high end raiding do take skills even in regular MMOs and so does PvP.

Hopefully will GW2 give us an open worold that is more based on skill. There is of course already DFO and MO but those games feels kinda low budget to me, they have their point and found their niche but they doesn't really do it for me.

           This is the lamest thread that I see sooooo much of that it's to the point of lunacy.  As far as you mentioning Street fighter and all that... umm... the last I checked, to be good at fighting games in general, you have to play and practice.  Without practice, you can't win against seasoned veterans.

            Using a game I play and consider myself pretty good at:  You can't log into Tekken 6 without having played ANY of the others, and expect to compete with the players that you'll find online.  It just doesn't happen without practice.  People who have been playing since Tekken 1 will win over people who have been playing for a week.  That's just how it is and fighting games and FPS's reflect this.

            As far as MMO's, I'm not a fan of grinding for gear, but I do understand that the people that put in the time to do so should have some kind of an upper hand in a genre like this.  As far as I go... I do grind for gear, but if I choose to not grind for the top notch gear (which I don't) then I take what I do get and have fun with it how I can.  This isn't a fighting game or shooter genre, and the time you invest in it has to reflect in a way that gear makes you more powerful (in most cases).   Not to be able to log in day one, and kill a level 10 as being a level 1...... that wouldn't make any sense, just because you "click" faster or what have you, the other person already invested a solid 2 days work in his character, and you don't have that right to win over him.  That's just the way MMO's are.  

Chicks dig guys with leet video gaming skills.

All I am going to say is TERA.

Rest of you noobs go home.

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by BioNut

There is a larger amount of people playing call of duty and halo than wow ;). Research before you call that niche :P.

It's niche until these CoD & Halo players start playing MMO's.  You should do some studies and surveys before assuming fps players want to level characters and go through the MMO grind.

(firstly, realize an MMO doesn't have to be an RPG.  just cuz %99 are currently doesn't mean the dark ages will persist for another 12 years)

why do you think FPS players AREN'T playing current MMOs? 

cuz there aren't any without char progression grinds.   you're right about the part where they don't want that, but then fail to see thats the reason why this HUGE (opposite of niche) group of players shuns MMOs AS THEY CURRENTLY EXIST.  and yet many of them are paying XBox live subscriptions fees, so its not this simplistic thinking that "nobody subs for a shooter".

nobody (well, not a very large group anyways) subs for a GRINDY, POORLY DONE shooter.  whos RPG mechanics fights against the very essence of a proper PVP based shooter.   and thats all thats been done so far.   

hopefully APB is decent enough to kickstart the next stage of MMO evolution.   the proliferation of RPGless, MMOs.  (as options, don't get it twisted and start trying to argue with me saying they won't ever replace RPGs, cuz that is NOT what i am saying..... they will be further OPTIONS that are finally being explored and plundered)

I'd like them to branch out. I like FPS. I like RPG. And lots of the shooters with progression and XP are kind of edging that way even now. It used to be a volume issue. They just couldn't make areas big enough for the RPG world feel and small enough to FPS in.

But all of that is changing. Some of the battlefield areas are at least as big as AoC zones. Proper use of instances and you can keep the framerate down.

What someone needs is an IP that speaks to a lot of people AND is more suited to FPS play. I'm hoping 40k is going to really push us into that sphere ... but just that one video doesn't really say a lot.

I think it would be great to have games like that as additional options and competition. Then they couldn't just vomit out STO and expect people to eat it up like pie off Paris Hilton.

Most people asking for skilled mmo's are usally terribads looking for another excuse to answer why they are losing. "He was better geared than me" or "there were 2 of you", these are just some of the numerous excuses they use. Wow for example has tournament servers where you can show off your 'skill', yet most people don't play on these tournament servers. Why not? If people want a skill based game it's right there. 

P.S. If you want to play skill based games, you're looking in the wrong genre. RTS or FPS are better choices.

Certain mmos out now do involve skill.  Twitch games may measure reaction times as much as they measure "skill".  Knowing when to use abilities in MMO combined with the ability to change your tactics based on what is going on is very common.

PvPing in some MMOs involve just as much if not more skill then any other type of game.  You would just choose to ignore it since you can't lolheadshot them all the time.

Knowing when to CC, when to stop healing to help dps, when to LoS, when to use your elite skill, when to blow cooldowns.  And again, it's not just "when", it's the ability to adapt when things are not going your way.

Overall, sure, most MMOs might involve less "skill" then a fps.  But if you are looking for fps skill in a normal mmoRPG, you are looking at it from the wrong point of view.

Everytime I see a thread about games needing more "skill" I can't help but detect a thinly veiled implication.  An implication suggesting that the person asking for more said "skill" in his games believes he would melt faces for miles around with his sheer awesomeness if any MMO were simply bold enough to implement his idea.

It's nice to see a thread once in a while where it's not veiled at all.

EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

There definetely could be some more MMOFPS games around, and not limited to 100 player areas.

All in all to be fair, as much as some folks may hate the whole argument about skill in games (and it could have been avoided had the OP simply just asked for more MMOFPS type games than having this particular discussion); the guy really is just looking for there to be more MMOFPS or MMOTPS games.  There really is nothing wrong with that - and if there is a market need for it - the developers should supply the games, instead of trying to do more hybrid mixes that do not satisfy anybody in the end.

I think it's worth mentioning (at least in the case of WoW), that in a combat situation (on a level playing field with same level, gear level, etc.) there is a fine (yet marginal) amount of skill involving the use of Macros, timing, knowledge of cooldowns, and other such skill-based aspects. Of course, I must agree with your "I want to see the underdog win" and that sort of mentality.

Personally I'm sick of "lololol!111killd u" players running around in the best equipment, facerolling me because they've spent countless hours playing, just because they have the time and resources, while I'm doing shift, alt, and ctrl key combonations and all that fancy stuff. It's really discouraging, to say the least.

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by project8six

RPG or character building goes against skill completely. the more time invest makes your char more powerful right so that takes away the majority of the skill. level playing fields like counter strike or starcraft is where skill comes into play. time investment = win mmo

If only we could make developers to realise that. :/

How is it a developer problem?

Each year games get made that fill the entire spectrum of skill.  So it's completely players' fault if they choose a game that doesn't coincide with their own desires.

The thing with MMORPGs is that they originated out of PnP games, which used dice rolls to decide if you hit or miss, with bonuses depending on your characters abilities. Every game follows the same premise of having an Attack Bonus, making a random roll (usually hidden now) and comparing that to the enemy Armor Class to see if you hit. There is no skill involved, it's all about making your character the best it can be so it can face off against deadly enemies. This is where the desire for Loot comes in, as the better the loot the better your character becomes.

The only skill in MMORPG's is based around raids and groups, where you face a much harder enemy than a single person could face, and then combine the abilities of the group into winning the combat.

The only MMO I can think of that involved skill was the MMOFPS from Sony, Planetside, and that game did it really well. Until the balance went all wrong, I used to love playing that game, it was way too much fun. Battles with hundreds of people, including tanks, snipers, aircraft, dropships, ATV's.. it was awesome. But then, that's not an MMORPG as it was purely your ability to aim rather than any random dice roll to determine success.