Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by qombi

 

 Did I say it was hurting me? My post was a point of view, I described above how it is hurting the person do this. Why not stop supporting these games that you find parts to be unfun and play something that you enjoy all of the game? If you support these games they will take this as a sign this is what the customer wants.

This is a forum after all isn't it where we discuss things. How is your post an argument for cash shops? Your post is more of just a "Hey leave us alone post, we will do what we want!" or a "Don't tell them this, it may open some eyes! We want them to keep buying!". Convince me I am wrong. I have had people convince me I am wrong in the past, doesn't hurt my feelings.

Explain to me why someone purchasing out of a cash shop to skip some of the game is better than not supporting a game they do not like parts of so that a trend to make games they do want without having to purchase out of shop is better.

Well, the whole vote with your wallet thing counts doesn't it?  I didn't think WoW was fun anymore, I stopped paying my sub.  I didn't enjoy RoM, didn't spend money on its cash shop.  I like DDO.  Its a nice casual game.  Can't play it for more then a week or so before i get bored, but it's fun enough during that week that I don't mind tossing Turbine 5-10 bucks.  The grinding of the same content in DDO, over and over and over again to earn enough of the currency to buy things in the shop? Not fun.  Playing through the content once or twice is fun to me though, and for that fun, I don't mind paying a little.

Lotro is a game I used to enjoy.  I didn't care for the LI grind and various other changes, but I'll definitely reinstall it when it goes hybrid and try it out.  Will I invest money in it?  Probably.  If I'm having fun.  If not, I won't.  Its very simple for me.

 Definitely if you find something unfun, I encourage people quit before lessening their "unfun" by paying extra in some item shop. You send the wrong signals by doing this. You tell the company that instead of fixing the unfun parts, you are okay with paying extra to skip them.

Not playing anymore tells them that they must fix these issues if they want your money. If enough people feel the same as you then the current trends will change.

Now Lotro, I am okay with a game being free to play (limited access) and you pay to access all content. That is an okay payment model in my eyes. What I do not agree with is the item shop, if it is taking too long to level a person should quit not buy potions. How is anything going to be fixed correctly in these games if people buy past issues?

This only encourages more bad features to encourage players to purchase past them. It does not encourage correcting the issues in the first place. Why should a company fix that boring grind when you are buying digital items to fix it?

 Feel free to do that on your own if you want, but youre making a huge mistake of assuming everyone reacts to things the same way as you or views things the same way. For me, i dont feel the need to sacrifice/give up my fun that im having by quitting a game in order for me to demand they fix the few parts i dont like. There is no such thing as a perfect game that makes 00% of the players happy 100% of the time, some people find ceryain things fun, others find them boring.

BTW since you used a movie reference in the OP... would you get up and walk out on a 2 hour long movie you paid to watch just because you ran into a 5 minute section of it that you didnt enjoy? I doubt that, most people wouldnt, because most dont need something to be absolutely perfect at all times in order to enjoy it.

the facts seem to be clear. these companies are in this for a profit.. no one is argueing against that, no one has a problem with that. but that is the inherent problem with F2P games, they need to make a profit. no profit, no expansions or patches. to do this they need to either program ways to "encourage" u to spend money in their shops, or sell advertisments in game.  if they end up "nerfing" our XP gains or "tightening up" drops, then i think it becomes more of a blackmail scenario, and i dont want pop ups in any game i'm trying  to play... i would rather pay the monthly fee, so i can demand content quality and good service from the company and not hear them complain they can't deliver those because of bottom line issues

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by zeowyrm
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?

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The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

Again, if I'm enjoying the game my way, who the hell are you to tell me I'm not doing it right?

Don't you see?  You're only allowed to enjoy a game in the exact same way that he is.  He clearly states that you are not enjoying the game, so it must be true!

 I see you have no arguments so you result to fear tactics or lies. You still have failed to tell me how buying items from a shop to skip unfun parts of the game (as many people here described not me) is better than the company fixing the unfun parts.

If you purchase items from an item shop to avoid playing the "unfun" parts of these mmos, then you are yourself telling the corporations that it is okay to make unfun parts of a game and charge me more money to skip them. If leave games you find are unfun, then corporations either go bankrupt because their product isn't a fun game or they correct the unfun parts of the game.

I only pointed out buying the items to pass up the unfun parts is only hurting yourself. You are saying "I like to play games that I find parts of boring, I will buy my way through these parts with my wallet" I don't know about you but I would rather have a game I enjoyed playing through. When I was a kid when you played a nintendo game and found that you hit a part of the game that was designed unfun, you didn't play any longer and didn't tell you friends how great the game was.

You know, Oblivion had that horse pack and a few other things that were so small that 3$ should not have covered the cost, but I don't remember anyone complaining really. So, the fact is that even offline games have done this stuff before, but people only bitch when it's an online game, and presumably because there would be someone there to listen to it.

i think a better model would be to let people play to level 11 free. why 11? because when do these games generally get fun? level 10, the first real milestone in these games. level 11 gives them a chance to get a feel for where the game is going, and get excited to play further... get em hooked and get em playing..

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Originally posted by knyghttearer
the facts seem to be clear. these companies are in this for a profit.. no one is argueing against that, no one has a problem with that. but that is the inherent problem with F2P games, they need to make a profit. no profit, no expansions or patches. to do this they need to either program ways to "encourage" u to spend money in their shops, or sell advertisments in game.  if they end up "nerfing" our XP gains or "tightening up" drops, then i think it becomes more of a blackmail scenario, and i dont want pop ups in any game i'm trying  to play... i would rather pay the monthly fee, so i can demand content quality and good service from the company and not hear them complain they can't deliver those because of bottom line issues

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My main point is the f2p model with a cash shop leads to temptation to produce games that are required to be unfun so that you WILL buy items to pass bad game design. Do we really want to encourage this behaviour? Would we rather not have game developers have sub fees only or other models to where if a game is designed badly they have to fix it to keep you playing instead of purposely designing poor gameplay? Something to think about.

Besides that you can't buy gameplay. Either you play a game or you don't.

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Originally posted by GTwander
You know, Oblivion had that horse pack and a few other things that were so small that 3$ should not have covered the cost, but I don't remember anyone complaining really. So, the fact is that even offline games have done this stuff before, but people only bitch when it's an online game, and presumably because there would be someone there to listen to it.

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Oh people did complain about that. I know I would never purchase the horse pack.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by zeowyrm
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?

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The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

Again, if I'm enjoying the game my way, who the hell are you to tell me I'm not doing it right?

Don't you see?  You're only allowed to enjoy a game in the exact same way that he is.  He clearly states that you are not enjoying the game, so it must be true!

 I see you have no arguments so you result to fear tactics or lies. You still have failed to tell me how buying items from a shop to skip unfun parts of the game (as many people here described not me) is better than the company fixing the unfun parts.

If you purchase items from an item shop to avoid playing the "unfun" parts of these mmos, then you are yourself telling the corporations that it is okay to make unfun parts of a game and charge me more money to skip them. If leave games you find are unfun, then corporations either go bankrupt because their product isn't a fun game or they correct the unfun parts of the game.

I only pointed out buying the items to pass up the unfun parts is only hurting yourself. You are saying "I like to play games that I find parts of boring, I will buy my way through these parts with my wallet" I don't know about you but I would rather have a game I enjoyed playing through. When I was a kid when you played a nintendo game and found that you hit a part of the game that was designed unfun, you didn't play any longer and didn't tell you friends how great the game was.

 Again youre still assuming that everyone enjoys the same things or something. Some people may find stuff like grinding fun and entertaining and dont mind it at all, others cant stand even the slightest grind. But grind is not the sole featur eof a game.

Ive used this example in the past... RF Online:

Horribly grindy game to level up (nobody in the game right now is even at level cap last i checked on the official servers). Most of us wish that the grind could be skipped (I once had a friend who was stuck at level 49 for something like 3 months cause of the terrible grind, and then losing XP upon death and not having the money to buy XP replacement pills). But the game does offer some great PvP on a very large scale that very few other games do, and thats what most people play it for. But there are those who do enjoy the grind, and to them the game is perfect. That doesnt mean the rest of us should quit playing it because we dont enjoy that aspect of the game.

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by knyghttearer
the facts seem to be clear. these companies are in this for a profit.. no one is argueing against that, no one has a problem with that. but that is the inherent problem with F2P games, they need to make a profit. no profit, no expansions or patches. to do this they need to either program ways to "encourage" u to spend money in their shops, or sell advertisments in game.  if they end up "nerfing" our XP gains or "tightening up" drops, then i think it becomes more of a blackmail scenario, and i dont want pop ups in any game i'm trying  to play... i would rather pay the monthly fee, so i can demand content quality and good service from the company and not hear them complain they can't deliver those because of bottom line issues

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My main point is the f2p model with a cash shop leads to temptation to produce games that are required to be unfun so that you WILL buy items to pass bad game design. Do we really want to encourage this behaviour? Would we rather not have game developers have sub fees only or other models to where if a game is designed badly they have to fix it to keep you playing instead of purposely designing poor gameplay? Something to think about.

Besides that you can't buy gameplay. Either you play a game or you don't.

I think that's a bit of a straw man argument.  Fact is, if a game isn't fun, people won't play it, regardless of whether its P2P or F2P.  Look at AoC's launch, WAR, CO, STO etc.

Me, I approach gaming the same way I approach every other entertainment form out there.  If I like it, I spend money on it.  For instance, I'm a Green Day fan.  Have been since 92.  I own every album in CD form.  Are all the songs good?  Oh god no, they have some real shitbombs.  But, the odds are good that I'll like most of the songs, so I invest in the CDs.  I like Tim Burton movies.  Are they all good?  Heavens no.  Personally, little sick of seeing Depp in them.  But I still buy them because overall, I enjoy his work.  Same goes for games.  I liked WoW.  Yeah, the community was shitty, the gearscore elitism is rampant and a trained monkey can get to 80.  But I liked it, and I was willing to pay to support it.

As far as LOTRO goes, I'm actually a little apprehensive on how this changeover is going to work.  If it works, great, I'll spend money in the cash shop.  If not, I'll move on to something else to spend money on.  I dunno, maybe it's because I have some disposable income that I don't mind spending money on a game.  But I don't mind it, whether it be a sub or a cash shop, if the game is worth playing, it's worth paying for.

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by knyghttearer
the facts seem to be clear. these companies are in this for a profit.. no one is argueing against that, no one has a problem with that. but that is the inherent problem with F2P games, they need to make a profit. no profit, no expansions or patches. to do this they need to either program ways to "encourage" u to spend money in their shops, or sell advertisments in game.  if they end up "nerfing" our XP gains or "tightening up" drops, then i think it becomes more of a blackmail scenario, and i dont want pop ups in any game i'm trying  to play... i would rather pay the monthly fee, so i can demand content quality and good service from the company and not hear them complain they can't deliver those because of bottom line issues

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My main point is the f2p model with a cash shop leads to temptation to produce games that are required to be unfun so that you WILL buy items to pass bad game design. Do we really want to encourage this behaviour? Would we rather not have game developers have sub fees only or other models to where if a game is designed badly they have to fix it to keep you playing instead of purposely designing poor gameplay? Something to think about.

Besides that you can't buy gameplay. Either you play a game or you don't.

I think that's a bit of a straw man argument.  Fact is, if a game isn't fun, people won't play it, regardless of whether its P2P or F2P.  Look at AoC's launch, WAR, CO, STO etc.

Me, I approach gaming the same way I approach every other entertainment form out there.  If I like it, I spend money on it.  For instance, I'm a Green Day fan.  Have been since 92.  I own every album in CD form.  Are all the songs good?  Oh god no, they have some real shitbombs.  But, the odds are good that I'll like most of the songs, so I invest in the CDs.  I like Tim Burton movies.  Are they all good?  Heavens no.  Personally, little sick of seeing Depp in them.  But I still buy them because overall, I enjoy his work.  Same goes for games.  I liked WoW.  Yeah, the community was shitty, the gearscore elitism is rampant and a trained monkey can get to 80.  But I liked it, and I was willing to pay to support it.

As far as LOTRO goes, I'm actually a little apprehensive on how this changeover is going to work.  If it works, great, I'll spend money in the cash shop.  If not, I'll move on to something else to spend money on.  I dunno, maybe it's because I have some disposable income that I don't mind spending money on a game.  But I don't mind it, whether it be a sub or a cash shop, if the game is worth playing, it's worth paying for.

On one hand, this is kind of funny - because it goes against what you previously said.  On the other hand, this is kind of funny - because it goes with what you previously said.

In the end, it all leans more toward the my money more than it does the skipping...

...oh and as far as the how does this hurt those that do not F2P?

In the end, it will force them to spend more money than they are with a sub if a sub is even available in a F2P game than they would have without it being F2P.  Companies do not go F2P to make less money than they were on a P2P model...

I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.

Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?

Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?

About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.

Originally posted by qombi

This argument has always sounded silly to me. Games are purchased to be played as entertainment. They are not like your mother making you eat vegetables. You are not forced to buy them. I don't care how much time you think you are saving by buying pixels. Why do it in the first place? Think of all the time you would save by not even buying the game, then you wouldn't have pay someone else so you don't have to play it.

If you are so concerned about how much your time is worth, why did you buy the game if you knew this? Games are a waste of time, they are a form of entertainment. You should also start buying movies and only watching the last 10 minutes to "save" your precious time. You should pay for cable TV and not watch it to "save" your precious time. Maybe you can find a service that you can pay money for to have people give you a brief summary of what the movie or show was about.

That seems like something these guys would argue for. Who has time to waste on actually watching the movies or shows when someone can summarize if for a fee? It would make too much sense to maybe not buy the movies, cable TV, or games you do not have time to watch or play, or perhaps purchase games that are designed for a person with your precious time constraints that you don't have to buy your way out of having to actually play it.

Have you ever though of that? Have you ever thought that when you buy from these shops to make up for these time constraints you have you only encourage these type of long hour games to continue? Instead of fixing these perceived time issues in these games, you are telling these companies "Hey! I like that these games take longer than I have time to play, I would actually pay you more to skip some of it! Just think about that for a moment before you respond. If enough people are really concerned with how long these games take to accomplish things in or how long it takes to "grind", then don't buy them.

If these games do not sell, I promise they will stop being produced. You don't have to pay extra for items in a shop to make up for a game's short falls.

 

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Link doesn't work.

Originally posted by Inf666

I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.

Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?

Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?

About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.

 Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Inf666

I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.

Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?

Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?

About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.

 Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?

 Not all parts of all games will be fun for all people. It's impossible to balance for each individual playing.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?

The level of entertainment a part of the game provides is subjective and dependend on the player himself. I absolutly hate repetition, others love it. I love to play the challenging parts, others just want easy and fast rewards.

In other words: A game part will provide different levels of entertainment to different people. The game is neither broken or flawed and doesn't need any fixing.

In most cases MMOs are just a linear sequence of parts. Whats the problem with me skipping the parts I do not like and you skipping other parts you do not like? MMOs are not competitive after all.

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Originally posted by Inf666
I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.
Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?
Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?
About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.

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If that is how you feel about the current games, with your film analogy why do you support these games? If you were smart, you would vote with your wallet for games that do not require you to "fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.", instead you are giving them a positive suggestion by saying "heck yes, this is what I want! I will even pay you more in a cash shop to skip parts of your crummy game!"

If I thought of any game like you described, I simply wouldn't play it. I am not forced to play a MMO.

Originally posted by Aercus

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Inf666

I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.

Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?

Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?

About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.

 Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?

 Not all parts of all games will be fun for all people. It's impossible to balance for each individual playing.

 I see this comment from a lot of you. This isn't something a single player game gets a free pass on, why lower your standards for a MMO? Only play MMOs that YOU find to be a fun play all the way through. Single player games are put on the shelf knowing they will not please everyone, but they sure hope it will please the majority all the way through.

Game companies have to strive for a fun game first and foremost. MMOs should be no different. Why keep paying for MMOs that try to be something for everyone and missing the mark for all. Having to pay extra in an item shop to skip content proves right there this philosphy isn't working. If someone ever feels they have to pull out their wallet to skip parts in yoru game, it's either A. they are not the target audience or B. Your game stinks.

If you guys would stop bending over and playing garbage that you find unfun and playing only games you do find fun. We wouldn't have a pile of the same huge bland MMOs with item shops in all, instead we would have many MMOs that suite the taste of many different players. There doesn't have to be one size fits all. With an item shop that is what you are getting. Throwing in an item shop to make YOU pay more for the games shortcommings is silly.

Originally posted by Inf666

MMOs are not competitive after all.

lol such a wrong comment.

Much agreed with the OP. A game has to be interesting at all its stages, like a movie, a radio station, a music song, a DJ, a concert, etc. If i don't enjoy some part of a game i stop playing it.

It's plainly stupid to pay more money for something you payed already and don't enjoy, under the promise that you will enjoy some other, later, part of it. Cause it's just a promise - the same promise the same developer did when they originally sold you that same game...

I mean, if you are so naive, i have a MMO here, its first 170 levels are made in excel and you just have to click a couple of buttons repedetly in order to level up. The whole process should take you around 3 years, but the game is free to play so that shouldn't be an issue heh? At lvl170 my whole game transforms into a full blown 3D endgame MMO with raids and stuff. So it's worth the trouble heh? And if you are in a hurry, i can always help you by making that 3 years period just a couple of days, if you pay me 300$.

Future of F2P MMOs:

PVP Player 1 vs Player 2

S T A R T!

Player 1 deposit $10 in the game bank account!

Player 2 deposit $15 in the game bank account!

Player 1 deposit $20 in the game bank account!COMBO!

Player 1 W I N!

Sorry I like to spend my money going out and doing stuff, and i don't have all that spare money to put in cash shop.

And I still would like have a equal chances with everyone.