Originally posted by Edli

Because in a f2p peoples buy stuff instead of earning them ingame by playing. After all the game is exactly that, the process toward the items, levels. That's where the concurrence is. Cash shop totally destroy the process thus destroying the game. Cash shop it's like a hack allowed from the developers.

I mean is that so hard to understand?

not all f2p and pay to win. you negate that fact played a few and assumed they all were just as such. they arew not, you my friend are one of the many with this stigma that it's all play to win,,

i mean is that so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Ceridith

For me, it's because I know that for a "F2P" game to be profitable, it will need to be designed in such a way as to strongly promote players into paying. Due to this, there is much content and/or convenience mechanics made only available to those willing to pay for them. Additionally, there is an assumption that even despite this, that many players will still spend very little or nothing, it's designed in a such a way that those who wish to get a "full" game experience have to spend cosniderably more than $15 a month, so it does not coem cheap to actually invest into the game.

And of course as mentioned before, many such item shops sell items that give significant advantages to those willing to spend ridiculous amounts of cash, with no ingame effort involved.

I'd much prefer to just pay my $15 a month to a purely P2P based MMO, and actually progress my character by playing the game to advance on an even playing field.

a well thought out arguement, I respect you sir for such.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by zeowyrm

 

As a player with very little time to grind anymore, I appreciate Pay for Convenience games. 

 

There are a lot of older games with jobs and families who just don't have the time they used to to play games.  That's where Pay for Convenience comes in.

 

 So, while the rest of you gnash your teeth and apply your zit cream, I'm going to spend my 10-20 dollars a month on my Convenience games.

 See the top two lines clearly indicate you're bitter about your current situation, and the third line is an insult to those who are where you still wish to be.

 

almost trying to convince yourself you're better than them.

 

I see this argument all the time. You want F2P for instant gratification. We get it. We just don't want to play that kind of game. Prticularly not with you.

 

not trolling, only making a point. HOping this won't be seen as a personal attack. As I've said, this argument is made a lot and "you" are symbolism only.

Well, I took it as a personal attack.  Frankly, I'm happy where I am, but I stil enjoy playing the games.  Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I'm talking about.

I'll try a free-to-play game if it's free-to-play.

no cash shop but taking donations. with nothing in return but real-life things like t-shirts and mugs and key-chains.

as long as money don't affect the game on the inside, I'll try it.

Originally posted by zeowyrm

 

Well, I took it as a personal attack.  Frankly, I'm happy where I am, but I stil enjoy playing the games.  Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I'm talking about.

 It's hard to make the argument i was aiming for without writing a mini-thesis other way. :(

sry.

I'm not questioning your happiness, I'm questioning the reasons why the average F2P-er wants to play F2P.

and my conclusion is that 'he' is really trying not to play much but to stay caught up. Well brilliant, but wouldn't that promote shallow-ness and lack of development effort on the "long path" since the most mnoey will be spent on the shortest route?

And wouldn't the sneaky business men find ways to force your hand? such as make a huge questing area in the middle that is also a huge max-level pvp area and then stick a long death penalty on you? And give you the cash-shop option to celanse this death penalty?

Problem with F2P is they'll never happily service those who are...playing for free...and they'll always try to squeeze cash out. They do too good of a job developing the game: no profit. They do too poor of a job: no players. SO they HAVE TO ideologically amke the game mediocre for freelooters and fun for those who pay.

hmmm. fun for those who pay, not fun for those who don't. Why not...just get a monthly fee?

I don't get it. with a monthly fee you have the security of being on equal grounds with everyone, you have the security of knowing your budget won't go out of hand, you never doubt "hmmm. should i buy this? I'm bored of grinding" and you simply don't run a hamster wheel while a rich guy takes the elevator.

my opinions at least.

Originally posted by Torlin

 I hate losing as much as the next guy, but I hate winning just because I bought an advantage with my wallet, and nobody ever finds out who is actually the better player.

 Exactly, that's what every decent gamer would think.

And i agree that F2P is the future model of almost all MMOs. It's just better business model for not so popular MMOs and there are enough people spending cash to support the "free to play" mechanism. I don't like it, but that's the sad truth.

Lord of the rings is a quality MMO, but obviously, it lacks something. Otherwise it wouldn't had to to go F2P.

I think the F2P model (along with Farmsville) is just a phase that will grow and then fade. My guess is it'll take 6 years before it's completely vanquished.

Originally posted by Gravarg

Game developers are like living creatures, they have to adapt the thier environment or perish.  I can remember back almost 20 years ago when I played Neverwinter Nights, you paid for every hour you were online.  Back then I paid about $30-40 a month.  Subscriptions from that time to now have dwindled, where some games are now $5 a month.  There just isn't any money in P2P anymore, unless you have "reportedly" 11.5 million subscribers.  In 10 years there won't be a single P2P game, everything will be F2P,  it's the only way for companies to stay alive.  Adapt or die...

Sure there's money in P2P. There's just "not enough money in it" for some.

Lineage 2 is still sub-based and is doing quite well, especially in its eastern market.

Final Fantasy XI is still sub-based and is SE's cash cow and has under 1 million players.

LoTRO has been P2P up to this day and was only just announced as going hybrid.

Moving forward, SE has stated that FFXIV will be sub-based. TERA Online will be sub based. Those companies, and others going with P2P could change their minds before launch, but as of now, each of them are still going with subscriptions.

... and so on.

Companies aren't moving toward microtransactions because of some failure of the subscription model. They're moving toward F2P because there's potentially more money in it. It's all about the green, nothing more.

As has always been the case, subscription-based games succeed or fail because of the game itself, not because the payment model is flawed.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by zeowyrm

 

Well, I took it as a personal attack.  Frankly, I'm happy where I am, but I stil enjoy playing the games.  Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I'm talking about.

 It's hard to make the argument i was aiming for without writing a mini-thesis other way. :(

sry.

I'm not questioning your happiness, I'm questioning the reasons why the average F2P-er wants to play F2P.

 

and my conclusion is that 'he' is really trying not to play much but to stay caught up. Well brilliant, but wouldn't that promote shallow-ness and lack of development effort on the "long path" since the most mnoey will be spent on the shortest route?

 

And wouldn't the sneaky business men find ways to force your hand? such as make a huge questing area in the middle that is also a huge max-level pvp area and then stick a long death penalty on you? And give you the cash-shop option to celanse this death penalty?

 

Problem with F2P is they'll never happily service those who are...playing for free...and they'll always try to squeeze cash out. They do too good of a job developing the game: no profit. They do too poor of a job: no players. SO they HAVE TO ideologically amke the game mediocre for freelooters and fun for those who pay.

 

hmmm. fun for those who pay, not fun for those who don't. Why not...just get a monthly fee?

I don't get it. with a monthly fee you have the security of being on equal grounds with everyone, you have the security of knowing your budget won't go out of hand, you never doubt "hmmm. should i buy this? I'm bored of grinding" and you simply don't run a hamster wheel while a rich guy takes the elevator.

 

my opinions at least.

Excellent points actually, thank you for clarifying.  Here's what I do.  When I know I have time to devote to a guild and grouping and the game in general, I sub to the game.  On months where I don't have time, like the summertime, I play either Guild Wars, or a F2P.  I'll admit though, the only F2P I play regularly is DDO, mainly because I respect the way their shop is set up.  "I'm bored, need some new dungeons.  I know, I'll drop 10 bucks, keep myself from being bored for a couple of weeks."  Nice thing about DDO, and soon LOTRO, I can just sub to them if I feel I'm going to be spending enough time in game.

I know that's not how a lot of players work, but its how I work when it comes to budgeting my time and F2P.  But then, I know better then to consider them free, so I don't have to worry about my sense of entitlement coming into play.

What I find most interesting about the crowd that decries the F2P market is the number one argument that is used. They say that having money IRL give an advantage to these games (which I do not dispute), while ingnoring the fact that in P2P games, those with the most time have a clear advantage. Personally, I'm fine with both formats and simply look for a game that is fun for me, be it F2P or P2P. And when the fun wears off, I move on. Too many games to play one I'm not happy with.

Also, why does Guild Wars seem to get a free pass in this debate? The cash shop there seems to give an obvious in-game advantage by selling skill sets. Is it because the game does have a box price? Correct me if I'm wrong as I've not played it.

Originally posted by june32nd

Originally posted by Edli

Because in a f2p peoples buy stuff instead of earning them ingame by playing. After all the game is exactly that, the process toward the items, levels. That's where the concurrence is. Cash shop totally destroy the process thus destroying the game. Cash shop it's like a hack allowed from the developers.

I mean is that so hard to understand?

not all f2p and pay to win. you negate that fact played a few and assumed they all were just as such. they arew not, you my friend are one of the many with this stigma that it's all play to win,,

 

i mean is that so hard to understand?

That depends on what peoples consider win. Someone consider the pvp, someone the levels or fluff items. So yeah pay to win is not only about pvp. Every item in cash shop serves to enhance the win factor. If it wasn't like that then nobody would pay for it.

A mmorpg is as much about the community as it is about the concurrence betwen players in different fields. A game should have the same rules for everyone without an interference from outside. That's what I call fair competition. While in the case of f2p is like 1 team in soccer can play with 13 players because this team paid more.

Originally posted by Gravarg

 In 10 years there won't be a single P2P game, everything will be F2P,  it's the only way for companies to stay alive.  Adapt or die...

 Or...  make a good MMO?  :)

but having a time advantage...or a skill advantage are components that always existed.

Think of Tetris. It was invented so a college professor and a janitor could have equal ability to learn and master.

it took time and some ability to visualize and pre-determine things.

now think of chess. It takes time to master, it takes skill to remember patterns but...mnoey doesn't help.

I mean can you purchase a second queen or an extra line of pawns or a get-out-of-checkmate-free-potion?

Traditionally games...ALL games...served exactly the purpose of being playable in-between social classes without the differences making a difference.

Sure you can have a better swimming suit or a better golf club or a better racing engine than the other guy but those are extremely specialized games, nowhere near open for public at a competitive level.

everyone can play checkers. What if there was a way to enhance your pieces with money? that wouldn't be too fun, would it?

and yes you can buy-in in poker, but poker is all about real money.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

What I find most interesting about the crowd that decries the F2P market is the number one argument that is used. They say that having money IRL give an advantage to these games (which I do not dispute), while ingnoring the fact that in P2P games, those with the most time have a clear advantage.

Can't believe I never thought of that before but it's pretty obvious is it not? 

And I'm not saying I'm in favor of a P2Win model whatsoever...But when is it not an advantage to have money in IRL, in anything we do? That's just the way it is...Gotta deal...

I'm sorry OP. But from my experience. I cannot compare ANY FTP to this list of games and come back with anything remotely close in quality, story, gameplay, polish and fun:

EQ2
WoW
LOTRO
Vanguard
FFXI

I'll even hesitantly add AoC and WAR to that list, only because their music and graphics crush any FTP on the market.

The only game remotely close to FTPs is Aion, and that speaks for itself.

It shouldn't be to hard to take a game like Allods or Runes of Magic and compare it to the above mentioned games to see the real difference. And there in lies your answer.

The fact of the matter is that companies are using "F2P" as a veil to sell products that are advertised as "free", but in reality, are not. We can stop to think about the difficulties of running a free game as a developer, of the different struggles and obstacles needed to overcome to achieve success or profit in a truly "free" MMO, but that's not our job as consumers. It's not our jobs to sympathize with companies stating platitudes, making excuses for why we should let them slide on charging us a dollar for a service here, or a convenience item there. It's our jobs as consumers to find the best value ratio to product quality, or we are otherwise unintelligently spending our money.

That being said, I'd like to quote something from a post from these same boards, titled "Lord of the Rings Online: Free to Play Interview":

"Looking at that chart - I'm screwed unless I pay to play.  Destiny points?  I have 4k...you cannot spend them unless you pay.  Crafting guilds?  I'm fully crafting guild playable right now - something I EARNED through an honor/crafting grind.  I will be limited unless I pay.  Gold??  I have 20g right now.  Are they going to TAKE 18g away from me when this goes pay to play unless I pay real money to keep it?  Storage bags.  I have 4 bags in my vault - all full of items I've made and/or found.  Do I lose them if I don't pay to play?'"

This is the truth of the matter. "Free" to play games are a method in which a developer can lock down individual pieces of their content and sell them all at a premium rate, which makes them entirely unfree to play, and is flagrantly false advertising. This alone, the fact that they are directly or indirectly lying to consumers by labeling their product a "free" game, is enough reason for me to question the integrity of any company that would seek out such a business model. It screams scam, which is why I'm not surprised that there are so many people questioning this sub-genre's validity.

I've heard excuses from the other side, such as being afraid of change, associating "F2P" with asian grinders, thinking they're all pay to win, or believing that anyone who wants a strictly subscription based model is a teenager without the money to spend on content. Personally, I'd like to go on the record claiming that these are all ridiculous, being a single adult with plenty of cash on my hands that has played, and enjoyed, asian grinders starting as far back as the original Lineage. This has nothing to do with gameplay types, or whether or not every "F2P" MMO that gets released has the same manner of cash shop, but everything to do with realizing that these games are created to push revenue, and are not created with the interest of the gamer in mind.

Originally posted by Robokapp

but having a time advantage...or a skill advantage are components that always existed.

I've know plenty of Folks in MMO Gaming with time advantages...FAR less with skill advantages...

Just saying...

Why "Fear"? For me its just scam.

They claim to F2P but to achieve something i have to invest money and far more money as i would do in P2P. I played some F2P games and i was spending money for what i could easy play a year P2P. I was playing a F2P game to a point ive seen that is never ending scam. There is no point where you dont need to spend any more money. You get drained money out of your pocket all the time.

Yeah ofcourse i couldnt spend money at all, but grind my brain to death, but then i would pretty fast stop playing as grinding isnt fun for me.

So far best F2P model ive seen is DDO, but it moves aswell towards the point pay to win, like ROM is (especailly on pvp servers).

Its one point to add comfort, but completly other point when you gain ingame advantages which is for sure a killing factor to play a F2P.

Ive learned my lesson on hard way and wont forget it :)

Im not afraid of F2P market as there will be always a niche for P2P and there for there will be always a game which i will be able to play.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for me, I won't play a F2P MMO unless all the cash shop does is unlock the higher levels forever, and items that may look different but do not affect any part of game play, and pets that don't change any part of game play, and finally they don't offer things like 2x xp for 2 hours...etc. 

A game that offers items in its cash shop that rival or equal items in the game destroys the game in my opinion.

A game that offers items that give bonuses that are not available in game like 2x xp destroy the game as well.

MMO's used to be about the community and the journey through the world, level caps didn't mean much, end game was not where the game began, the game was FUN from day one.  Sure it may have being repedative occasionally but honestly it was a much better system then today, again IMO.  If someone could purchase a gem that gave them 2x xp for 4 hours that is like buying an Iwin button for levels.  If Someone could purchase a hauberk that has better stats then 90% of what is in the game that is also an Iwin button.  These are unacceptable to myself and the reason I would not play F2P games.

People who have more time to play, they just move FASTER through the content. They don't get any advantages.

Someone will always have more time and that's normal, they spend their real life time to achieve something in the game.

So i think the "having more time advantage" is a false reason to justify the cash shop.

------------------------------

Think about the single player games. "I work all day, so i don't have time to play, while my brother is jobless, so he have the time advantage. I'll just buy cheats and hacks online and be max level and have unlimited gold."

Same with MMOs. You just buy stuff (cheats) in cash shop and become even stronger than the ones who play all day.