Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Sovrath

Otherwise what you and others are suggesting is that the store should all be free and that lifers should have unlimited access to as much as they want.

Yes. That is right - because they thought they were paying for the full game (minus expansions, I guess)

Does that also mean that lifers should have immediate access to all radiance gear without playing the game even though they paid? No, they have to go through regular game play in order to get it and take the time to do what is needed to get it.

What is radiance gear? Was in in the game when they bought the lifetime sub? Is it for sale for real money?

Same with this store.

The store which wasn't in game when they bought their lifetime subscription. They now are getting less of the full game (expressed as a percentage) than they were.

What's to keep Turbine from selling one use keys to dungeons in that store?

No they are not. They are not getting less of the full game than they were.

The store just adds to the game, or makes you buy items that you can't be bothered to wait and loot or earn through completing quests or buy via the current in game methods off the auction houses etc. It does not take anything away

Plus you earn more points by playing the game, so the more you play the more points you will accumulate to spend in store, so in the end you will probably not need to pay a thing unless you want everything they got for sale straight away.

Originally posted by Bluekid

Just to reiterate to anyone who has not read my post.

 

Oh they've read it, they just think you're talking crap. Which in my opinion you are.

It doesn't matter whether you have a personal phobia against F2P games, the fact is that the way a Lifer plays this game come the autumn won't change in any material way, he will still get all the content for free as he does now. In fact, he may even find depending on the store prices that he gets an even better deal because his accumulated points may well cover the cost of future expansions for which he would previously have paid extra.

ouch, lot of folks complaning about turbine's manouver

let's say that the F2P of LOTRO, which is restrict to 3 areas of the entire game, Bree, Eriador and Shire is some kind of trial. If you had payed the lifetime subs you can play the entire game, including expansions, with no restrictions AND you still gain coins to spend on the turbines lotro store to help your alts. You keep your status of lifetime subscriber as VIP-forever-and-ever

I can't see the fraud, since honestly, i didnt read the agreement condition ( if you say you read, you lying XD).

soon or later this would happen. FP2 games with store system is way more profitable than the P2P games.

I'm going to sing the Doom Song now!

I see the usual 'hey lets bend over for item stores' crowd is already in full swing to attack the OP... I have a lifetime sub myself (since launch) and have made good use of it and will probably see how this pans out. But I can quite easily see why someone would be upset about this happening so soon after getting on board with the offer.

Let's just put it like this, regardless of your views on item stores/cash shops, this guy bought a lifetime subscription to a game without one at a time when they must have already been aware that they planned to subsequently add one. Whether or not you like it or not, or regardless of whether any of you think it is value for money, he is receiving something different to what he paid for.

It's like buying a car with a petrol engine and getting one with a diesel engine.

They may have a line in the EULA that says they are able to do this but like others have said, this is not a get out of jail free card. Turbine were obviously aware that they were going to do this quite a while ago. Many players noticed that the skirmish system was a deliberate move towards modular content that would suit the MT model perfectly and that was released months ago. Turbine has essentially misrepresented what they are selling. Doing this is illegal regardless of what clauses Turbine has to protect themselves. End of story.

It doesn't matter what any of you personally think of the change, or even if it's 'the same thing' (which it isn't since there is no cash shop in LOTRO currently and many people would have chosen not to play if they knew it would eventually have one). If someone buys one thing and gets something else then they have been lied to about what they were buying. Just because you think the change is fine it doesn't mean everyone else should just accept it.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Sovrath

Otherwise what you and others are suggesting is that the store should all be free and that lifers should have unlimited access to as much as they want.

Yes. That is right - because they thought they were paying for the full game (minus expansions, I guess)

Does that also mean that lifers should have immediate access to all radiance gear without playing the game even though they paid? No, they have to go through regular game play in order to get it and take the time to do what is needed to get it.

What is radiance gear? Was in in the game when they bought the lifetime sub? Is it for sale for real money?

Same with this store.

The store which wasn't in game when they bought their lifetime subscription. They now are getting less of the full game (expressed as a percentage) than they were.

What's to keep Turbine from selling one use keys to dungeons in that store?

I don't have access to the original info regarding what a lifetime sub gave you. Mines of Moria came after the original shadows of angmar which is when the first offer of a lifetime sub was made available.

In any case, after two expansions (though some would say siege of mirkwood was a mini expansion) it is more than clear that they had to pay for expansions.

The first thing I find after doing a search is this post in 2007 from codemasters that does state that lifers still have to pay for expansions. My guess is that this was also clear for the U.S. players.

https://lotrosupport.codemasters.com/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=3002

Radiance gear is the high end gear that is needed for certain high end raids. The idea is that the players are fighting such overhwelming evil that the radiance of the gear counters it. Without it the players would cower and not be able to do anyting.

And no, it won't be offered in the store.

My only thought, and I don't know if this is true but just a guess, is that f2p players who have to pay a la carte for content might have to buy admission to raids but I have no idea if this is true or not.

Saying that the store wasn't in game and now they aren't getting a full game is sort of like saying the expansions weren't in game and that they arent' getting them for free and therefore not getting the full game.

Again: All a lifetime sub ever offered was a "life time sub" which meant that you didnt' have to pay a monthly subscription. That is all. It does not imbue the player with anything more than that. Well, except in the new system they get automatic vip status and don't have to pay for a monthly allotment of 500 points.

Originally posted by kamikkaze

ouch, lot of folks complaning about turbine's manouver

let's say that the F2P of LOTRO, which is restrict to 3 areas of the entire game, Bree, Eriador and Shire is some kind of trial. If you had payed the lifetime subs you can play the entire game, including expansions, with no restrictions AND you still gain coins to spend on the turbines lotro store to help your alts. You keep your status of lifetime subscriber as VIP-forever-and-ever

I can't see the fraud, since honestly, i didnt read the agreement condition ( if you say you read, you lying XD).

soon or later this would happen. FP2 games with store system is way more profitable than the P2P games.

 Actually that is not true. Lifetime subs did not get all the expansions for free. They had to pay for them. If they have not paid for them, I believe they are still restricted although if they are selling games via points, it sounds like they could possibly save up points and buy the expansions they passed over. In this case, it would be yet another benefit for the lifers, though i doubt many will see it that way.

Personally, I have no problem with the F2P portion of the game. I think people who stay F2P will have as much a chance to enjoy a quality game without paying cent as they would with other F2P models. My problem is the difference between the VIP and the Premium memberships. I do not necessarily think they should be equal, but there shouldn't be anything the VIPs get that the Premium members can't get with some sort of purchase except the "free" monthly points the VIps are getting. Gold limits, crafting limits, contact limits, all of that should be wiped at some price point. If they are worried about spam or auction manipulation, fine limit the F2P players who have nothing invested in the game and therefore nothing to lose if they get banned. As for the Premiums, some price point should be set to unlock those limits... if someone spends 100 dollars in one shot, and some people will.

They do it in DDO too. There is no reason why that person should get less service, actual customer service, and have gold limits and the other bs when they have essentially just paid for a years worth of the game. Now to those of you who say well that person should just sub... no, the other point to F2P is you pay once, and you get what you paid for and never have to worry about upkeep or keeping the account going. It's a sunk cost. Some people really love the idea of paying 100 dollars once and then, maybe, maybe later adding more bmoney but if they don't, nothing is taken away. 

If Turbine keeps this rather distinct difference between VIP (monthly paying customers) and Premium (also paying customers), I think it's a clear misstep and will certainly not give them the success they have with DDO because the difference from VIP and Prem in DDO is either not as stark or can be purchased away.

The OP and people who have not read how the F2P works should either stop posting, or go read it.

It's been pointed out a number of times what is going to happen.  You can check out the forums their, with their words on what will happen.  You can check out the posts on their forums about questions people have asked.

Good lord, shut up and read.

i see

there's people who see this in the legal point of view  and others see the same change in the game point of view

sure, in the legal view might have something strange so read carefully the EULA and go ahead the sue the turbine if you feel depreciate :)

Originally posted by Alberel

Whether or not you like it or not, or regardless of whether any of you think it is value for money, he is receiving something different to what he paid for.

No, he bought the right to play the game free of additional charge for as long as it is in existence, subject only to certain additional charges such as paid-for expansions, and that right is precisely what he will continue to have after the Autumn, up until which he will continue exactly as at present in any event, and after which he may well find that he doesn't actually need to pay extra for those expansions after all. 

He also bought it on the clear basis that Turbine/Codemasters were entitled to change the basis of the game at any time and if he had any knowledge of the genre he would also have known that this change was inevitable following the success of DDO Unlimited and may well have reasoned that this was why the lifetime price was so drastically reduced. However, I accept that he may be a complete newcomer to the genre and therefore wouldn't have known those things, although frankly I doubt it.

I accept entirely that he doesn't like it, and that his dislike is borne of a personal hatred of F2P games, which strictly speaking LoTRO isn't going to become anyway, rather it'll be more of a hybrid as there will still be a subscription option, but that doesn't make it "total fraud" as the OP is claiming.

As someone with two lifetime accounts I have looked carefully at the package on offer, and I am perfectly happy with it. It looks to me like I'll gain from it rather than lose by it. I too would have been unhappy at the sales practice of Turbine/Codemasters  still offering the lifetime deal when they knew the business model was about to change if they weren't intending to offer at least as good a deal if not better to Lifers than formed the basis of that original deal but that is what they are doing and I'm happy with that. Total fraud it is not.

Originally posted by Shadewalker

Originally posted by Alberel

Whether or not you like it or not, or regardless of whether any of you think it is value for money, he is receiving something different to what he paid for.

No, he bought the right to play the game free of additional charge for as long as it is in existence, subject only to certain additional charges such as paid-for expansions, and that right is precisely what he will continue to have after the Autumn, up until which he will continue exactly as at present in any event, and after which he may well find that he doesn't actually need to pay extra for those expansions after all.

No, Alberel is right.

It isn't fraud, because there was no actual lie.

But in contract law, witholding pertinent information can constitute misrepresentation.

The facts.

1) Free-to-play and subscription games are very different. Item shops are positively loathed by a lot of players and many players who would happily pay a monthly or lifetime sub wouldn't touch a free-to-play game with a ten-foot-pole.

2) Turbine ran a special offer, selling the lifetime subs at reduced cost just prior to switching to a free-to-play model. That's EXTREMELY suspicious. It's as if they knew that was the lifetime subscription was going to be FAR less appealing after the switch.

I don't know if there's enough there to win a case because laws vary from place to place. But the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.

But the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.

Except that competent legal advice from an attorney that would have the relevant expertise with respect to contract law and software licensing would cost a hell of a lot more than any potential losses that the OP thinks he's suffered. It would be the height of idiocy to talk to an attorney for what amounts to someone not liking a legitimate, perfectly legal change that a game developer made to their subscription model.

Also, the fact that Turbine is announcing this months before it goes into effect? That shows good faith on their part, since customers are being given plenty of public notice of impending changes that haven't happened yet. All the people crying doom and gloom now should take that into consideration, since any lawyer or courtroom would do the same thing. They're telling you in advance so you can decide if you want a part of it or not.

Originally posted by Lidane

But the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.

Except that competent legal advice from an attorney that would have the relevant expertise with respect to contract law and software licensing would cost a hell of a lot more than any potential losses that the OP thinks he's suffered. It would be the height of idiocy to talk to an attorney for what amounts to someone not liking a legitimate, perfectly legal change that a game developer made to their subscription model.

Which is why I earlier suggested that if there's any kind of free legal or consumer advice service in his area, that he use that.

And while the change to the subscription model itself might be "perfectly legal", the circumstances under which the OP purchased the lifetime subscription are suspect for the reasons I outlined.

So as I said, the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.

Well Alberel is maybe partially correct. The game hasn't actually changed for VIPs. As of now, it's set to play the same as it always has. The real problem is it has the potential to change more rapidly than it did before. I mean the lifers were also unhappy about adventure packs and paying for a expansion they saw as barely more than a book update and lacking one book update.

In any event, I think the OP has the right to be unhappy, and question their tactics. 2 weeks ago Turbine certainly knew this was going to happen. On the other hand, the OP could be pleasantly surprised because so far, Turbine is bending over backwards for VIPs.

some of you guys that recently bought the lifetime sub can just do a charge back you have like 30 days to do so i think right?

i don't know if you could call it fraud technicly, but in the very least it was a very shitty thing to do on thier part. they SHOULD have waited to offer that deal AFTER they released the info about the game going F2P. it would have saved them the head ache and bad rep this is giving them. the ONLY reason they would have the offer a couple weeks prior to the announcement was to( like it or not) scam a few more people that wouldn't have other wise bought it after they annouced the F2P model.

i'm sure some people still woulda have bought the life sub after they knew it was going to have a F2P model included but its obvious some wouldn't have.

honestly you should stop complaining completely they could have shut the game down completely and you'd still be screwed out of your money ... read terms of service before you decide to buy.  As I've stated before this game could have been completely shut down just weeks after you went and bought your lifetime sub and it's something you agreed to, and yes this does allow them to change their payment models as well.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Lidane

But the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.

Except that competent legal advice from an attorney that would have the relevant expertise with respect to contract law and software licensing would cost a hell of a lot more than any potential losses that the OP thinks he's suffered. It would be the height of idiocy to talk to an attorney for what amounts to someone not liking a legitimate, perfectly legal change that a game developer made to their subscription model.

Which is why I earlier suggested that if there's any kind of free legal or consumer advice service in his area, that he use that.

And while the change to the subscription model itself might be "perfectly legal", the circumstances under which the OP purchased the lifetime subscription are suspect for the reasons I outlined.

So as I said, the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.

They're not suspect at all. These changes have been announced months in advance of them taking effect. That counts for a lot.

This isn't SWG changing their entire game mechanic without any notice to their players at all, and within days of a paid expansion going live. THAT was a legitimate gripe. This is a developer introducing a subscription model that has already proven successful in one game to another one of their titles, and giving their paying customers MONTHS of notice before it actually happens.

So they had a sale on Lifetime subs then announced this. Big deal. That kind of stuff happens all the time in the real world. Say, for example, that you go and buy a new car. Two weeks later you find out that a sale on your make and model will be coming up in three months. Are you going to blame the dealer for having a sale in three months, or are you going to accept that you paid for something that someone else will get for a lower price down the line?

It's called caveat emptor. People really need to learn it and embrace it. You may not like a change that a game developer is making, but that doesn't automatically mean you have any standing to drag them to court or talk to a lawyer. Perspective helps, especially when there's nothing illegal or untoward happening here, and Turbine is giving people plenty of time to ask questions and come to terms with this new change.

Originally posted by green13

1) Free-to-play and subscription games are very different. Item shops are positively loathed by a lot of players and many players who would happily pay a monthly or lifetime sub wouldn't touch a free-to-play game with a ten-foot-pole.

 You're making the mistake of confusing the new LoTRO with a purely free to play game. You state that some players would happily pay a monthly or lifetime sub without acknowledging that that is precisely what they will still be able to do with LoTRO. If some players doesn't want to use the cash shop they don't have to, they can pay the monthly or lifetime sub and automatically get all the content they already enjoy. They won't miss out on any significant content except future expansions which aren't included in their current package anyway.  If there are items that might be considered significant then Turbine/Codemasters have covered that by giving subscribers free points with which to buy those items, so the players aren't losing out. The courts won't regard personal preferences in relation to cash shops as constituting a valid point in law, the facility has been provided and it is entirely up to the customer whether he chooses to make use of it or not.

This is in no way as bad as the NGE change on SWG back in 2005. It completely changed the game to a FPS, and removed professions they were still showing future updates on, which was not happening. And gave only 10 days notice

People even paid £100 annual subscription, and still did not get those fees refunded.

There is absolutley nothing wrong with this F2P scheme. At first I thought It was going to be Free to Play, and everyone would not need to spend any money, but when looking at all the costs involved, the F2P scheme here is nothing more than a glorified free trial, which all P2P games have.

Originally posted by Lidane

So they had a sale on Lifetime subs then announced this. Big deal. That kind of stuff happens all the time in the real world. Say, for example, that you go and buy a new car. Two weeks later you find out that a sale on your make and model will be coming up in three months. Are you going to blame the dealer for having a sale in three months, or are you going to accept that you paid for something that someone else will get for a lower price down the line?

It's called caveat emptor. People really need to learn it and embrace it. You may not like a change that a game developer is making, but that doesn't automatically mean you have any standing to drag them to court or talk to a lawyer. Perspective helps, especially when there's nothing illegal or untoward happening here, and Turbine is giving people plenty of time to ask questions and come to terms with this new change.

That's absolute rubbish. Your analogy is terrible. LoTRO didn't offer a lifetime subscription sale and then announce LOTRO 2 was about to be launched.

Consumers have rights. And in this case Turbine clearly knew that the lifetime subscription was going to be much less appealing after switching to the free-to-play model and ran the sale accordingly.

That's really dirty. Whether it constitutes contractual misrepresentation or some other breach of law will depend on the local laws - which I don't know.

But I hope the OP does follow it up or does what abyss suggested and cancel the charge on his credit card.