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General Discussion  » A question for those who have given up Warcraft . What direction would you have liked to have see the game take ?

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176 posts found
  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3272

5/19/10 10:23:38 AM#121

IF you want to look at it that way.. LIFE is repetition.. I wake up , shit , shave, drink coffee.. morning after morning after morning.. sometimes I have breakfast.. LOL

Eve and other sandbox games have much more end game then WoW.. Even Planetside has a better end game then WoW.. LOL   To prove the point a little harder.. Take WoW's end game mechanics and apply it to level 1.. How many do you honestly think would stay to play the same zone OVER and OVER until the next content patch?   :) 

Have a great day

  tanoril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 440

5/19/10 10:32:05 AM#122
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril
Originally posted by Rider071

-World PvP, no DKs. Seige should have been implemented and towns should be able to be taken over for periods of time with cooldowns like raid lockouts.

Arena should be the only cross-realming. and have it's own reward gear.

BGs should go back to to realm only, and have the ranks reinstated. Honor made here should coincide with World pvp honor.

World/BG pvp pvp should have it's own gear, as well as the old ranking system. Warlords should be feared.

 

Raids are fine, for those who wanted to play a watered down EQ they have it. The gear should not be better than any of the pvp gear, and visa versa. It can be different, but not better.

 

Game lost sight when the pride in our realms and it's warlords were gone. it just lost it's fun, imho.

Crossrealming, changing races, etc... nails in the coffin for any pvp-based game. DAoC taught everyone this, and it seems only a handful of devs listened, the rest have systematically destroyed the pvp aspects of their MMOs. Hell, look at WAR and what their current plans are doing to their game. It's as if they wanted to destroy it.

You're living in some sort of fantasy world, because WoW never was a pvp based game.  It is/was a PvE game with PvP added as an afterthought.  The game was never balanced for world pvp. 

Also, to the guy that said you can get on a flying mount and go afk for 5 minutes and get where you want, I'd like to see video of that because I've never heard of that before (perhaps he's referring to flight paths, which are not mounts). 

I think the title of the post says "What direction would YOU have liked to have seen the game take?"

PvP wasn't an afterthought.....it just didn't make the top of the priority list upon launch.  If you read the developer interviews leading up to the launch of the game, Battlegrounds (and PvP) were in the plans but time and budget constraints put it in the backseat to more "carebear" friendly aspects of the game.

 

With that said.......the history of the Warcraft series IS all about conflict between the two factions.  There is a completely different direction they could have taken WOW, but it would have yielded less box sales and subs because of the niche following PvP has.

 

Blizzard could have made one of the best PvP games to hit the market, but they opted for the max subs, accessability for all approach. 

 

I'm not knocking Blizzard for it because it was the best business model, I'm just saying they could have created a hell of a PvP game.

I agree with all that (about how it could have been more of a pvp game) but as you said, PvP was never a priority in this game.  That should of been clearly evident before Burning Crusade even launched.  There's nothing wrong with liking a particular style of gameplay, but all these complaints about pvp in wow is like complaining that there should be better PvE in EvE.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

5/19/10 12:34:20 PM#123
Originally posted by tanoril
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril
Originally posted by Rider071

-World PvP, no DKs. Seige should have been implemented and towns should be able to be taken over for periods of time with cooldowns like raid lockouts.

Arena should be the only cross-realming. and have it's own reward gear.

BGs should go back to to realm only, and have the ranks reinstated. Honor made here should coincide with World pvp honor.

World/BG pvp pvp should have it's own gear, as well as the old ranking system. Warlords should be feared.

 

Raids are fine, for those who wanted to play a watered down EQ they have it. The gear should not be better than any of the pvp gear, and visa versa. It can be different, but not better.

 

Game lost sight when the pride in our realms and it's warlords were gone. it just lost it's fun, imho.

Crossrealming, changing races, etc... nails in the coffin for any pvp-based game. DAoC taught everyone this, and it seems only a handful of devs listened, the rest have systematically destroyed the pvp aspects of their MMOs. Hell, look at WAR and what their current plans are doing to their game. It's as if they wanted to destroy it.

You're living in some sort of fantasy world, because WoW never was a pvp based game.  It is/was a PvE game with PvP added as an afterthought.  The game was never balanced for world pvp. 

Also, to the guy that said you can get on a flying mount and go afk for 5 minutes and get where you want, I'd like to see video of that because I've never heard of that before (perhaps he's referring to flight paths, which are not mounts). 

I think the title of the post says "What direction would YOU have liked to have seen the game take?"

PvP wasn't an afterthought.....it just didn't make the top of the priority list upon launch.  If you read the developer interviews leading up to the launch of the game, Battlegrounds (and PvP) were in the plans but time and budget constraints put it in the backseat to more "carebear" friendly aspects of the game.

 

With that said.......the history of the Warcraft series IS all about conflict between the two factions.  There is a completely different direction they could have taken WOW, but it would have yielded less box sales and subs because of the niche following PvP has.

 

Blizzard could have made one of the best PvP games to hit the market, but they opted for the max subs, accessability for all approach. 

 

I'm not knocking Blizzard for it because it was the best business model, I'm just saying they could have created a hell of a PvP game.

I agree with all that (about how it could have been more of a pvp game) but as you said, PvP was never a priority in this game.  That should of been clearly evident before Burning Crusade even launched.  There's nothing wrong with liking a particular style of gameplay, but all these complaints about pvp in wow is like complaining that there should be better PvE in EvE.

Well, to be fair......PvP was more sandbox and pure prior to Burning Crusade (more specifically the early years of Vanilla)

 

Southshore / Tauren Mill battles were infamous before battlegrounds were implemented.  WOW hasn't seen world PvP on this scale since.  EVEN with all the carrots they threw at Hala in Nagrand, the tower buffs for the Mana Tombs / Crypts dungeons, the stadiums in Hellfire, etc........nothing has reached the scale that the old Southshore / Tauren Mill fights (which largely had no extrinsic rewards to speak of)

 

Also, Vanilla BGs didn't have all the anti-premade measures that BGs have now.  PvP guilds and groups of friends could jump into a BG queue and get a game within a reasonable time.....making organized group PvP feasable.  Because the gear rewards were untouchable for the majority of the population queuing for BGs.....the people participating in battlegrounds were doing so because they enjoyed playing the scenario.  That means the players played smarter and they worked together more because their goals were more aligned.

 

Where as today, all the easy to get extrinsic rewards have killed just about any bit of intrinsic motivation there is left to PvP for the joy of PvPing.  THIS is why world PvP is dead.  This is why you have so many people AFKing, and doing things in battlegrounds that are not specifically aligned with winning the match.  Hell, some people even try to sabatoge the match so that it ends quickly and they can get in another.

  tanoril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 440

5/19/10 1:14:58 PM#124

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

5/19/10 2:41:17 PM#125
Originally posted by tanoril

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

I agree that flying mounts killed much of world PvP....but what kind of world PvP are we talking about?

 

Are we talking about ganking someone while they are questing or traveling to a quest area.......or are we talking about a group of Horde players hunting down a group of Alliance players?

 

Flying mounts might have limited the amount of open world kills of people getting blind sided while riding to the next quest hub, but it did nothing against the roving bands of faction hunters.....mostly cause they aren't there to start with.

 

In games like Ultima Online and Lineage 2, groups of enemy clans / factions / alliances would form and go out looking for each other.....for no other reason than kicking the other guys ass.  You don't have that in WOW.  If there isn't a piece of purple gear attached to the end of something (and it better not take too long!!!), it seems that you can't get anyone to do anything anymore.

  Bama1267

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/04
Posts: 1880

5/19/10 2:54:55 PM#126
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

I agree that flying mounts killed much of world PvP....but what kind of world PvP are we talking about?

 

Are we talking about ganking someone while they are questing or traveling to a quest area.......or are we talking about a group of Horde players hunting down a group of Alliance players?

 

Flying mounts might have limited the amount of open world kills of people getting blind sided while riding to the next quest hub, but it did nothing against the roving bands of faction hunters.....mostly cause they aren't there to start with.

 

In games like Ultima Online and Lineage 2, groups of enemy clans / factions / alliances would form and go out looking for each other.....for no other reason than kicking the other guys ass.  You don't have that in WOW.  If there isn't a piece of purple gear attached to the end of something (and it better not take too long!!!), it seems that you can't get anyone to do anything anymore.

 Well there is a big difference in the way both of those games play. World pvp in WoW really doesnt exist because of factors that arent present that are present in games like Lineage 2. In Lineage 2, you have castle seiges, farming areas for mats ets etc. Some of the guild wars stim from altercation's between members from previous run ins. To say they go looking for another guild for no reason really isn't true. Generally there is a reason , if nothing else than to harass an oposing guild, prevent progres, etc etc.

  In WoW, you can only fight the oposimg faction which make it limited in the amount of pvp that occurs. The lack of communication between the 2 is also a factor. The only fighting that may resemble that of Lineage 2 is when a new expac hits and a guild might block out another from farming high end mats. So I don't think It really has as much to do with a purple piece of gear being attached rather than having no earthly reason to go out and fight a couple players of the opposite faction who may be questing? Seriously, i think it's more of the whole setup of the game than anything else.

  User Deleted
5/19/10 2:58:33 PM#127

a large variety of hero classes

gear customization (clothing dye)

flying combat

an ending to arthas' reign that didn't suck

no retarded double spawning guards in towns stopping all small group pvp

noobs being able to damage high level players.

  tanoril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 440

5/19/10 3:27:23 PM#128
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

I agree that flying mounts killed much of world PvP....but what kind of world PvP are we talking about?

 

Are we talking about ganking someone while they are questing or traveling to a quest area.......or are we talking about a group of Horde players hunting down a group of Alliance players?

 

Flying mounts might have limited the amount of open world kills of people getting blind sided while riding to the next quest hub, but it did nothing against the roving bands of faction hunters.....mostly cause they aren't there to start with.

 

In games like Ultima Online and Lineage 2, groups of enemy clans / factions / alliances would form and go out looking for each other.....for no other reason than kicking the other guys ass.  You don't have that in WOW.  If there isn't a piece of purple gear attached to the end of something (and it better not take too long!!!), it seems that you can't get anyone to do anything anymore.

But like Bama said, in WoW, what was the motivating factor to do that other than just killing the other guy.  At least in UO, you got to take the guys loot (never played L2).  The only objectives for world pvp in Wow was the stuff in Eastern Plaguelands, and I don't know when that came into the game.  The lack of cross faction communication complicates things as well.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

5/19/10 6:31:27 PM#129

I'll list them in order why I left.

1. Cash shops / Card loot on top of sub fee - I pay for the complete game with buying the game/expansion and paying monthly

2. Taking away 5 man group challenge - I loved the challenging 5 man content of the original and deep dungeons

3. Mounts mounts mounts - I got sick of all the focus put on silly mounts, how many are in the game now?

4. Arena - Horrible idea

5. Trivialization of Travel - too many teleports, instant teleportation in dungeons, etc

6. Removing elites from world - I really enjoyed the quest for groups that was in the game, there were plenty of solo quest to level all the way to the top, not sure why these were added as solo as well. I leveled every character 1-60 on quest without issue

7. Ruining the uniqueness of classes - hybrids are not hybrids any longer, they are super classes that can be all other classes, I liked each class having different abilities than others but now everyone has everything

8. Burning Crusade Theme - Hated being on another planet, liked WOTLKs environment but disliked how boring easy it was

___________________________________________________________

To be fair what I liked.

1. 10/25 dungeons in Burning Crusade - I like smaller dungeons for guilds that were smaller who liked challenge .. not stupified raids of WOTLK

2. Heroic dungeons of lower level dungeons, great idea. This way all this great content isn't gone to waste. (Unfortunately I think they will be ruining it by stupidfying it as WOTLK).

3. Guild level system

 

I would have liked if they would have tried to keep the same format of original game as in environment and 5 man dungeons. They were great, not overly hard nor moronic stupid like WOTLK. Wish they would require you to que for looking for dungeons by walking into the dungeon entrance (for randoms you would have to walk into one that is your level range). That would still make it immersive, like you are actually going to a dungeon. Last but most important, I wish they would have not been greedy by double dipping their customers, every item should be in the game you buy and pay monthly for.

_________________________________________________________________________________

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

5/19/10 8:18:00 PM#130
Originally posted by Bama1267
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

I agree that flying mounts killed much of world PvP....but what kind of world PvP are we talking about?

 

Are we talking about ganking someone while they are questing or traveling to a quest area.......or are we talking about a group of Horde players hunting down a group of Alliance players?

 

Flying mounts might have limited the amount of open world kills of people getting blind sided while riding to the next quest hub, but it did nothing against the roving bands of faction hunters.....mostly cause they aren't there to start with.

 

In games like Ultima Online and Lineage 2, groups of enemy clans / factions / alliances would form and go out looking for each other.....for no other reason than kicking the other guys ass.  You don't have that in WOW.  If there isn't a piece of purple gear attached to the end of something (and it better not take too long!!!), it seems that you can't get anyone to do anything anymore.

 Well there is a big difference in the way both of those games play. World pvp in WoW really doesnt exist because of factors that arent present that are present in games like Lineage 2. In Lineage 2, you have castle seiges, farming areas for mats ets etc. Some of the guild wars stim from altercation's between members from previous run ins. To say they go looking for another guild for no reason really isn't true. Generally there is a reason , if nothing else than to harass an oposing guild, prevent progres, etc etc.

  In WoW, you can only fight the oposimg faction which make it limited in the amount of pvp that occurs. The lack of communication between the 2 is also a factor. The only fighting that may resemble that of Lineage 2 is when a new expac hits and a guild might block out another from farming high end mats. So I don't think It really has as much to do with a purple piece of gear being attached rather than having no earthly reason to go out and fight a couple players of the opposite faction who may be questing? Seriously, i think it's more of the whole setup of the game than anything else.

Good points, but I think what I was getting at is that WOW missed the opprotunity to work in open world dynamics that would spark open world PvP, like L2 did.

Faction sieges of home cities or strongholds (Wintergrasp) could have worked in a similar way that Castle Sieges did.  It's important to point out that guilds and alliances fought over castles in L2 in the original release and first few expansions with little to no actual benefit to owning castles other than bragging rights.  There was nothing substation to be gained yet people spent tons of man hours of leveling and farming so that that they could have the levels and resources to siege.

 

Do you think the average collection of PvPers in your average battleground would participate in something like a castle siege if there was nothing substantial to be gained?

 

 

Also, why isn't there the same kind of strife between Alliance and Horde than there was between the major powerhouse alliances on any given L2 server?  If your playing on WOW lore, shouldn't the Alliance have Horde Bashing parties roaming around contested zones looking to keep Hordies from leveling and farming?  

Someone brought up the inability to communicate with the other faction......if anything, that dynamic made me hate the other faction even MORE.  I couldn't vent to the a-hole that ganked me while questing and it made me want to punt the next gnome I ran into.

 

What I'm saying is.....people in WOW (and I'm generalizing here) have a hard time PvPing for no other reason than the enjoyment of fighting against another human being (instead of some stupid AI).  Instead, there has to be some piece of gear or some piece of currency used to get a piece of gear to get people participating......and I use the word participating VERY loosely 

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

5/19/10 8:27:02 PM#131
Originally posted by tanoril
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

I agree that flying mounts killed much of world PvP....but what kind of world PvP are we talking about?

 

Are we talking about ganking someone while they are questing or traveling to a quest area.......or are we talking about a group of Horde players hunting down a group of Alliance players?

 

Flying mounts might have limited the amount of open world kills of people getting blind sided while riding to the next quest hub, but it did nothing against the roving bands of faction hunters.....mostly cause they aren't there to start with.

 

In games like Ultima Online and Lineage 2, groups of enemy clans / factions / alliances would form and go out looking for each other.....for no other reason than kicking the other guys ass.  You don't have that in WOW.  If there isn't a piece of purple gear attached to the end of something (and it better not take too long!!!), it seems that you can't get anyone to do anything anymore.

But like Bama said, in WoW, what was the motivating factor to do that other than just killing the other guy.  At least in UO, you got to take the guys loot (never played L2).  The only objectives for world pvp in Wow was the stuff in Eastern Plaguelands, and I don't know when that came into the game.  The lack of cross faction communication complicates things as well.

I don't know about your UO experience, but loot and money was so easy to come by that it was a non issue.  Looting a dead corpse was more of a perk of winning than a major motivating factor to log in and go PvPing.  I don't recall that there was ever a situation where my UO PvP guild grouped up to increase our riches.  We grouped up and would repeatedly patrol hot spots for some action because it was FUN fighting other people.  

We died alot in UO and it never deterred our desire to PvP.  I remember during burning crusade that there was a boycott on Arathi Valley battleground by the Alliance because the Horde was using a choke point to control the map, keeping the Alliance from gaining any honor for loosing.  I played UO for a long time and I think the average PvP playerbase would have pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and figured out a way to combat the problem, not boycott it.  Two groups obviously motivated by two VERY different things.

  Jakdstripper

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2108

5/19/10 8:45:08 PM#132

make classes unique again.

i can't stand this everyone can range dps, cc, self heal, aoe,buff/debuff, stun, silence, bubble, mana regen, have pets!

every single class now days plays the same just the spell are named different. it's total bs, they have completely generalized everything trying to give everyone the same tools so as to "balance" combat.

so lame.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

5/19/10 11:27:56 PM#133
Originally posted by qombi

I'll list them in order why I left.

1. Cash shops / Card loot on top of sub fee - I pay for the complete game with buying the game/expansion and paying monthly

2. Taking away 5 man group challenge - I loved the challenging 5 man content of the original and deep dungeons

3. Mounts mounts mounts - I got sick of all the focus put on silly mounts, how many are in the game now?

4. Arena - Horrible idea

5. Trivialization of Travel - too many teleports, instant teleportation in dungeons, etc

6. Removing elites from world - I really enjoyed the quest for groups that was in the game, there were plenty of solo quest to level all the way to the top, not sure why these were added as solo as well. I leveled every character 1-60 on quest without issue

7. Ruining the uniqueness of classes - hybrids are not hybrids any longer, they are super classes that can be all other classes, I liked each class having different abilities than others but now everyone has everything

8. Burning Crusade Theme - Hated being on another planet, liked WOTLKs environment but disliked how boring easy it was

___________________________________________________________

To be fair what I liked.

1. 10/25 dungeons in Burning Crusade - I like smaller dungeons for guilds that were smaller who liked challenge .. not stupified raids of WOTLK

2. Heroic dungeons of lower level dungeons, great idea. This way all this great content isn't gone to waste. (Unfortunately I think they will be ruining it by stupidfying it as WOTLK).

3. Guild level system

 

I would have liked if they would have tried to keep the same format of original game as in environment and 5 man dungeons. They were great, not overly hard nor moronic stupid like WOTLK. Wish they would require you to que for looking for dungeons by walking into the dungeon entrance (for randoms you would have to walk into one that is your level range). That would still make it immersive, like you are actually going to a dungeon. Last but most important, I wish they would have not been greedy by double dipping their customers, every item should be in the game you buy and pay monthly for.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The continued themes... No one is *forcing anyone* to purchase *anything* from the cash shop.  Blizzard is simply providing options for an obvious section of their player base(look at how many people spent $25 on that silly my little pony mount ^^).

I for one VERY much like the new Dungeon Finder and emblem system.  I missed out on most of the BC dungeons because its such a PITA finding groups to run them.  I very much enjoyed seeing the Wrath dungeons, and being able to equip my four 80's with semi decent gear through the drops and the emblem system.  I've never expected raid level gear since I lack the extended focus required for them these days.

Its been my experience that many of those who decry flying mounts and TP travel have another agenda... Its MUCH more difficult to gank people if they fly or port in... ^^  Way too many people seem to have rose colored glasses about the "wonder" of world PvP.  The only wonder is that so many people tolerated it for so long.  I leveled to 60 on deathwing from launch. I can tell you first hand about the "joys" of getting ganked and corpse camped by gangs of  bored high levels in top of the line gear.

After making it to 60, I switched to silver moon, and have four 80's there. Yes, the game is easier now than it once was. That again shows that Blizzard is paying attention to the demographics of their player base.  Those who want a challenge, should be in the leading edge of the ICC push.  If thats not enough, then perhaps it is time for some niche game. Because thats all some of these sadistic "old school" games will ever be.  I play MMO's as a hobby, for entertainment, not to prove anything to anyone, including myself.

  tanoril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 440

5/20/10 8:10:17 AM#134
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by Bama1267
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by tanoril

Although I'm not a pvp type player, it would be nice if they brought the ranks back, just not the grind that was required to attain them.  Players love titles and although they've tried to achieve that with achievement titles, it's not the same.  I think as far as world pvp is concerned, the devs drew a line in the sand that basically said 'we'll have pvp, but we're not going to bastardize pve for the sake of balancing pvp'.  Once that happened (and it happened very early in WoW's life), PvP in WoW become more of a diversion than anything else.  Halaa was actually a good idea (I still say Nagrand is not one of if not the best zone in the game) but flying mounts in Outland made it irrelevant.

 

You know the irony of all this is believe it or not, it's the PvP servers that have the higher rated guilds (as far as content completion) than the PvE servers. 

I agree that flying mounts killed much of world PvP....but what kind of world PvP are we talking about?

 

Are we talking about ganking someone while they are questing or traveling to a quest area.......or are we talking about a group of Horde players hunting down a group of Alliance players?

 

Flying mounts might have limited the amount of open world kills of people getting blind sided while riding to the next quest hub, but it did nothing against the roving bands of faction hunters.....mostly cause they aren't there to start with.

 

In games like Ultima Online and Lineage 2, groups of enemy clans / factions / alliances would form and go out looking for each other.....for no other reason than kicking the other guys ass.  You don't have that in WOW.  If there isn't a piece of purple gear attached to the end of something (and it better not take too long!!!), it seems that you can't get anyone to do anything anymore.

 Well there is a big difference in the way both of those games play. World pvp in WoW really doesnt exist because of factors that arent present that are present in games like Lineage 2. In Lineage 2, you have castle seiges, farming areas for mats ets etc. Some of the guild wars stim from altercation's between members from previous run ins. To say they go looking for another guild for no reason really isn't true. Generally there is a reason , if nothing else than to harass an oposing guild, prevent progres, etc etc.

  In WoW, you can only fight the oposimg faction which make it limited in the amount of pvp that occurs. The lack of communication between the 2 is also a factor. The only fighting that may resemble that of Lineage 2 is when a new expac hits and a guild might block out another from farming high end mats. So I don't think It really has as much to do with a purple piece of gear being attached rather than having no earthly reason to go out and fight a couple players of the opposite faction who may be questing? Seriously, i think it's more of the whole setup of the game than anything else.

 

Do you think the average collection of PvPers in your average battleground would participate in something like a castle siege if there was nothing substantial to be gained?

 

 

Also, why isn't there the same kind of strife between Alliance and Horde than there was between the major powerhouse alliances on any given L2 server?  If your playing on WOW lore, shouldn't the Alliance have Horde Bashing parties roaming around contested zones looking to keep Hordies from leveling and farming?  

No, I don't because I don't think it's a hardcore PvP player who plays battlegrounds.  In fact I'd be surprised if that type of player even existed in WoW anymore.  As far as the alliance/horde thing, if I can remember the lore (or what some dev said back then), WoW actually presented both sides in sort of a 'cease fire', almost like a cold war after the events of Warcraft III.  At least that's how it was explained as to why there wasn't constant war battles (via sieges, etc) going on. 
 

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

5/22/10 12:05:17 PM#135
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by qombi

I'll list them in order why I left.

1. Cash shops / Card loot on top of sub fee - I pay for the complete game with buying the game/expansion and paying monthly

2. Taking away 5 man group challenge - I loved the challenging 5 man content of the original and deep dungeons

3. Mounts mounts mounts - I got sick of all the focus put on silly mounts, how many are in the game now?

4. Arena - Horrible idea

5. Trivialization of Travel - too many teleports, instant teleportation in dungeons, etc

6. Removing elites from world - I really enjoyed the quest for groups that was in the game, there were plenty of solo quest to level all the way to the top, not sure why these were added as solo as well. I leveled every character 1-60 on quest without issue

7. Ruining the uniqueness of classes - hybrids are not hybrids any longer, they are super classes that can be all other classes, I liked each class having different abilities than others but now everyone has everything

8. Burning Crusade Theme - Hated being on another planet, liked WOTLKs environment but disliked how boring easy it was

___________________________________________________________

To be fair what I liked.

1. 10/25 dungeons in Burning Crusade - I like smaller dungeons for guilds that were smaller who liked challenge .. not stupified raids of WOTLK

2. Heroic dungeons of lower level dungeons, great idea. This way all this great content isn't gone to waste. (Unfortunately I think they will be ruining it by stupidfying it as WOTLK).

3. Guild level system

 

I would have liked if they would have tried to keep the same format of original game as in environment and 5 man dungeons. They were great, not overly hard nor moronic stupid like WOTLK. Wish they would require you to que for looking for dungeons by walking into the dungeon entrance (for randoms you would have to walk into one that is your level range). That would still make it immersive, like you are actually going to a dungeon. Last but most important, I wish they would have not been greedy by double dipping their customers, every item should be in the game you buy and pay monthly for.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The continued themes... No one is *forcing anyone* to purchase *anything* from the cash shop.  Blizzard is simply providing options for an obvious section of their player base(look at how many people spent $25 on that silly my little pony mount ^^).

I for one VERY much like the new Dungeon Finder and emblem system.  I missed out on most of the BC dungeons because its such a PITA finding groups to run them.  I very much enjoyed seeing the Wrath dungeons, and being able to equip my four 80's with semi decent gear through the drops and the emblem system.  I've never expected raid level gear since I lack the extended focus required for them these days.

Its been my experience that many of those who decry flying mounts and TP travel have another agenda... Its MUCH more difficult to gank people if they fly or port in... ^^  Way too many people seem to have rose colored glasses about the "wonder" of world PvP.  The only wonder is that so many people tolerated it for so long.  I leveled to 60 on deathwing from launch. I can tell you first hand about the "joys" of getting ganked and corpse camped by gangs of  bored high levels in top of the line gear.

After making it to 60, I switched to silver moon, and have four 80's there. Yes, the game is easier now than it once was. That again shows that Blizzard is paying attention to the demographics of their player base.  Those who want a challenge, should be in the leading edge of the ICC push.  If thats not enough, then perhaps it is time for some niche game. Because thats all some of these sadistic "old school" games will ever be.  I play MMO's as a hobby, for entertainment, not to prove anything to anyone, including myself.

 You may be okay with paying more for what you would have gotten previously with your subfee and game purchases but I am not. You also assume alot don't you. I never said I liked PVP, I do not actually. Just because you do not enjoy something challenging doesn't mean others don't. If I wanted to sleep I would go to bed, rather than play gauranteed winning a game. It's no longer a game if there is hardly a chance of losing.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

5/22/10 12:53:29 PM#136
Originally posted by qombi
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by qombi

I'll list them in order why I left.

1. Cash shops / Card loot on top of sub fee - I pay for the complete game with buying the game/expansion and paying monthly

2. Taking away 5 man group challenge - I loved the challenging 5 man content of the original and deep dungeons

3. Mounts mounts mounts - I got sick of all the focus put on silly mounts, how many are in the game now?

4. Arena - Horrible idea

5. Trivialization of Travel - too many teleports, instant teleportation in dungeons, etc

6. Removing elites from world - I really enjoyed the quest for groups that was in the game, there were plenty of solo quest to level all the way to the top, not sure why these were added as solo as well. I leveled every character 1-60 on quest without issue

7. Ruining the uniqueness of classes - hybrids are not hybrids any longer, they are super classes that can be all other classes, I liked each class having different abilities than others but now everyone has everything

8. Burning Crusade Theme - Hated being on another planet, liked WOTLKs environment but disliked how boring easy it was

___________________________________________________________

To be fair what I liked.

1. 10/25 dungeons in Burning Crusade - I like smaller dungeons for guilds that were smaller who liked challenge .. not stupified raids of WOTLK

2. Heroic dungeons of lower level dungeons, great idea. This way all this great content isn't gone to waste. (Unfortunately I think they will be ruining it by stupidfying it as WOTLK).

3. Guild level system

 

I would have liked if they would have tried to keep the same format of original game as in environment and 5 man dungeons. They were great, not overly hard nor moronic stupid like WOTLK. Wish they would require you to que for looking for dungeons by walking into the dungeon entrance (for randoms you would have to walk into one that is your level range). That would still make it immersive, like you are actually going to a dungeon. Last but most important, I wish they would have not been greedy by double dipping their customers, every item should be in the game you buy and pay monthly for.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The continued themes... No one is *forcing anyone* to purchase *anything* from the cash shop.  Blizzard is simply providing options for an obvious section of their player base(look at how many people spent $25 on that silly my little pony mount ^^).

I for one VERY much like the new Dungeon Finder and emblem system.  I missed out on most of the BC dungeons because its such a PITA finding groups to run them.  I very much enjoyed seeing the Wrath dungeons, and being able to equip my four 80's with semi decent gear through the drops and the emblem system.  I've never expected raid level gear since I lack the extended focus required for them these days.

Its been my experience that many of those who decry flying mounts and TP travel have another agenda... Its MUCH more difficult to gank people if they fly or port in... ^^  Way too many people seem to have rose colored glasses about the "wonder" of world PvP.  The only wonder is that so many people tolerated it for so long.  I leveled to 60 on deathwing from launch. I can tell you first hand about the "joys" of getting ganked and corpse camped by gangs of  bored high levels in top of the line gear.

After making it to 60, I switched to silver moon, and have four 80's there. Yes, the game is easier now than it once was. That again shows that Blizzard is paying attention to the demographics of their player base.  Those who want a challenge, should be in the leading edge of the ICC push.  If thats not enough, then perhaps it is time for some niche game. Because thats all some of these sadistic "old school" games will ever be.  I play MMO's as a hobby, for entertainment, not to prove anything to anyone, including myself.

 You may be okay with paying more for what you would have gotten previously with your subfee and game purchases but I am not. You also assume alot don't you. I never said I liked PVP, I do not actually. Just because you do not enjoy something challenging doesn't mean others don't. If I wanted to sleep I would go to bed, rather than play gauranteed winning a game. It's no longer a game if there is hardly a chance of losing.

Challenging means different things to different people. Some find full loot free for all games challenging. I do not, so I stay away from such. Some find games with sadistic death penalties challenging. Again, I do not.  Many, MANY people do not find either of those examples entertaining or worth their time. Thats why most such games in the west are niche at best.

You are quite correct in regards to item shops. I have no problem with them, as long as one isn't forced to purchase things to progress in a subscription game. Its entirely different in a F2P game. I have no problem spending money in a F2P cash shop, if I enjoy the game. Thats how the Dev's make money after all.  As for the last, in WoW(for example) anyone who thinks that they can face roll their way through ICC is more than welcome to try... Even the best guilds wipe quite a bit while learning the fights.

  yayitsandy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 372

 
OP  5/23/10 7:43:33 PM#137

When it comes to cash shops my view is they are quite acceptable in free to play games ( although even then they should'nt be a rip off ) .In a pay to play game everything should be achievable in game . Its should be one or the other . A flying mount and in game pets arn't game breakers but they are a very small step away from things that will be .I don't think Blizzard have crossed line yet and I doubt they will cross it before the Cataclysm but at some point in 2011 -2012 they will go too far for many players . The question is how far they can push the envelope .

  Morgaren

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/09
Posts: 394

For me, the gates will open.

5/23/10 7:47:12 PM#138

make it viable for high level chars to go back and do low level content, like mentoring lowbies or a chronomancer thing like in eq2

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

5/23/10 7:54:00 PM#139

World PvP. Lateral advancement rather than raising the level cap or adding new linear tiers of gear.  More battlegrounds - much much more battlegrounds. More fluff in general such as housing etc. Mini-games. Better and more involved crafting. More fun and less of less carrot and stick thing. The list goes on and on and on.. Treadmil raids and reputation grinds totally killed the game for me.

  edurning

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/09
Posts: 5

5/23/10 8:04:59 PM#140

I would have liked to have seen end game content that was soloable.  Once I maxed level I got bored and eventually quit.  Raids really wern't all rhat much fun and there was little else to do.

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