Originally posted by jackmcleod

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.

Don't mean to derail the thread but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  Could you clarify, please?  If you're saying that logic can't necessarily apply directly to everything in real life, okay that's rationally debatable.  If you're saying that (to some small degree) what would be considered strong enough reasoning to be acceptable is based on the worldview of the individual making that judgement call, okay - fair enough.  

If you're saying that logic isn't what it is: A science based on facts, years of tested hypotheses or if you're saying that the rules of logic are open to relative interpretation such as how one might interpret cultural differences or a work of art, that is simply false.

As a wise man once said: "You are entitled to your own opinion.  You are not entitled to your own facts."

Could you clarify, please? That is a college level exam question for philosophia 2.  I could, but it would just be a TL;DR

But seeing you define logic as a form of science, it clearly means something totally different to you than it does to me. To me it's just like relative distance. The distance of 2.5meters, is always correct, however the distances that are far and near  are always wrong. To me, the same applies to logic. The word itself is in no way precise enough to be defined as anything, it simply represents an idea, so does perception. Logic is the judgement that comes after perception. For a lalafell the rock might be a boulder, however for a Roegadyn it is completely different. Your definition of logic seems to equate to my definition of  the word 'fact'. This being said, is it not logical that your understanding of my thoughts is entirely different than my actual thought? Perhaps it is I that doesn't use the correct word, but I cannot think of another word.

ie: 1 class should have to walk around, the other should be able to step over. The mid-sized classes should be able to jump :) It might not be fair, but why must a game be fair if life isn't.

log·ic

   [loj-ik]  Show IPA

I can't help but notice the similarity of what's being described in this thread and merit parties in FFXI (at least when I played... no clue what they are like now).  You typically needed very little healing because you had several party members that could take hits (preferrably with NIN subbed) and the mob(s) would bounce from one player to another.  Granted you still had MP regen, but often the healer in the party would engage in combat too and just cast minimal heals.  MP had to be conserved because resting would seriously slow down your progress.  Also, you didn't sit in one place and "camp".  You moved around a lot to find mobs.

That's how I imagine FFXIV will be... your party roams around to gather mobs, perhaps in a circle of sorts so you wind up back at a node when your MP is spent.  Hopefully you won't have one person designated as the tank and one as the healer but rather a primary and several secondaries.

Originally posted by jackmcleod

 

Where did you get that from though, so i can read the whole interview :)

Veeery early interviews, from last year's E3. Here's the link to the other one:

http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2009/06/07/dengeki-interview-e3-2009/

Originally posted by ryuga81

1) Avoid creating small solid objects and cliffs at all.

2) Make them "non-solid".
3) Add a special animation for getting over such obstacles.
4) Allow jumping only near jumpable objects.

As 3) and 4) are simply dumb (you will have to implement at least *some* form of jump, or adapt the animation to a different array of objects AND map all the jumpable objects), the 2) will make stuff even more incoherent than simply adding jumping and the 1) will make a very flat, empty and uninteresting game world... why don't simply add jumping and get rid of the whole problem? (did i miss any other possibility?)

Besides that, managing resources makes many interesting situations possible (see D&D mmo), but they need to be well thought. Just making a "find the best pillar for farming" kind of stuff would probably be a major failure (people will just complain about crowd and lag near the most profitable locations).

I don't think 3 and 4 are dumb at all. It's still a lot less work than creating jumping from the get go, and probably a lot more reasonable to have because in the end the world has been created in a way that there is aside from few exceptions no need to jump anywhere. If there are few situations where it would be beneficial to jump, that kind of animation is more easily added in.

Remember that making the world work in a way that jumping is allowed is not only about adding the animation for the jump. When you jump, your character moves up in the world as well, and I don't think they have the kind of structure that allows this in the game.

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Now as for the retard that thinks logic is real life... just incase he was really serious, just gonna inform him that logic is perception.

Don't mean to derail the thread but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  Could you clarify, please?  If you're saying that logic can't necessarily apply directly to everything in real life, okay that's rationally debatable.  If you're saying that (to some small degree) what would be considered strong enough reasoning to be acceptable is based on the worldview of the individual making that judgement call, okay - fair enough.  

If you're saying that logic isn't what it is: A science based on facts, years of tested hypotheses or if you're saying that the rules of logic are open to relative interpretation such as how one might interpret cultural differences or a work of art, that is simply false.

As a wise man once said: "You are entitled to your own opinion.  You are not entitled to your own facts."

Could you clarify, please? That is a college level exam question for philosophia 2.  I could, but it would just be a TL;DR

But seeing you define logic as a form of science, it clearly means something totally different to you than it does to me. To me it's just like relative distance. The distance of 2.5meters, is always correct, however the distances that are far and near  are always wrong. To me, the same applies to logic. The word itself is in no way precise enough to be defined as anything, it simply represents an idea, so does perception. Logic is the judgement that comes after perception. For a lalafell the rock might be a boulder, however for a Roegadyn it is completely different. Your definition of logic seems to equate to my definition of  the word 'fact'. This being said, is it not logical that your understanding of my thoughts is entirely different than my actual thought? Perhaps it is I that doesn't use the correct word, but I cannot think of another word.

ie: 1 class should have to walk around, the other should be able to step over. The mid-sized classes should be able to jump :) It might not be fair, but why must a game be fair if life isn't.

 

log·ic

   [loj-ik]  Show IPA

–noun

1.

the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2.

a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.

3.

the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4.

reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.

5.

convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness:the irresistible logic of the facts.

6.

Computers. logic circuit.

 

-From Dictionary.com

I was referring to the first listed definition in particular, the standard denotative one.  Although you can apply logic to your own perception of things, logic does not equal perception.  I can tell that you aren't familiar with this standardized definition since you used a fallacy called 'begging the question' to argue your case.  The fact that we disagree doesn't strengthen your definition nor detract from my own.

The fact that in your original post you strongly implied that anyone who didn't agree with your definition of logic was a 'retard', leads me to believe you were trying to pass that off as the accepted standard definition, which it is not.  If you were just trying to point out that logic and perception are both intangible ideas; that's true, but intangible ideas quite often find application in real life - which is where I was seeking clarity on your argument.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this thread got on jumping in the first place, or why this is such a controversial issue with the ffxiv community but one compromise (assuming the devs even feel the need to compromise over such a small issue) might be: add adaptive behavior when nearing things that could be jumped or climbed (think Zelda).  When you near that dreaded rock or a small gap between cliffs, keep running and your character will automatically jump over, with no player-activated jumping to break immersion in that way.  If they've already designed most of the world with a lack of jumping in mind, that would probably be the best compromise (though in my opinion their development time would be better spent on more important things).  If they haven't necessarily designed the world one way or the other, maybe they'll add jumping in the future and we can stop derailing unrelated threads.

Perhaps in English it would have been better to use the term judgement instead of perception, to me they mean the same. Judgement is a form of evaluation. Evaluation is how you view, calculate, a situation. Perception is how you immediately view something, a first impression. However, I dont really have the patience to evaluate without getting paid for it, so perception is at the same time my evaluation. Also, if you read definitions from dictionary to dictionary, many will vary. Had tons of fun with that back in college.

In his comment, the user implied that I had said that logic was a form of physical truth, which simply proves he did not even make the effort to try and understand what I said, unlike you who asked for clarification. That is what prompted the retard comment. Also because I tried to make sense of what he was saying and wasted 15 minutes realising he was just posting to up his post-count or something.

Anyhow, adaptive behaviour would be good enough for jumping. They have also mentionned climbing and swimming. I'd vote for all 3. :) Why not have as many possibilities as possible in a RPG. If i want to impress my girlfriend with my awesome climbing skills, why not, I am roleplaying something that can climb, right?

No MP regen = player needs to be conservative and smarter about his gameplay

This concept already exists in DDO.  Nothing amuses me more than playing on my wizard and watching another wiz/sorc draining themselves on the first fight of a dungeon, whine about how they're out of mana and expect everyone else to carry them to the next rest stone.  They're too used to having their MP automatically regen in other games.  I become even more amused when they get kicked after whining about how non-regening MP sucks and how <other MMO> is better.

The system will weed out the good players and the leechers, pure and simple.  Personally, I look forward to the time past the first few weeks of "this game sucks" and "WoW is da bestest" when the kiddies trail off and the real player community starts to build and shine.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by ryuga81

1) Avoid creating small solid objects and cliffs at all.

2) Make them "non-solid".
3) Add a special animation for getting over such obstacles.
4) Allow jumping only near jumpable objects.

As 3) and 4) are simply dumb (you will have to implement at least *some* form of jump, or adapt the animation to a different array of objects AND map all the jumpable objects), the 2) will make stuff even more incoherent than simply adding jumping and the 1) will make a very flat, empty and uninteresting game world... why don't simply add jumping and get rid of the whole problem? (did i miss any other possibility?)

Besides that, managing resources makes many interesting situations possible (see D&D mmo), but they need to be well thought. Just making a "find the best pillar for farming" kind of stuff would probably be a major failure (people will just complain about crowd and lag near the most profitable locations).

I don't think 3 and 4 are dumb at all. It's still a lot less work than creating jumping from the get go, and probably a lot more reasonable to have because in the end the world has been created in a way that there is aside from few exceptions no need to jump anywhere. If there are few situations where it would be beneficial to jump, that kind of animation is more easily added in.

Remember that making the world work in a way that jumping is allowed is not only about adding the animation for the jump. When you jump, your character moves up in the world as well, and I don't think they have the kind of structure that allows this in the game.

Actually jumping is just an event on the Y axis. It's really simple to implement.

I'd even say that technically jumping is already in the game. Just a configuration on the server to allow it or not.

Why theyre holding back in my opinion is this:

1. Server performance. To show people jumping, at the right time, you need a  connection that is under 100 ms ping for 90% of the players. It costs more and still will make some people look like theyre jumping through objects once in a while.

2. Unreachable areas. They might not be so unreachable with jumping and take a lot of time to "configure" in the map design. This part is why I think it's all lazy design. :)

3. You also need various jump animations. Landing animations. Perhaps they dont want to focus on those.

Originally posted by ChaosInc

No MP regen = player needs to be conservative and smarter about his gameplay

This concept already exists in DDO.  Nothing amuses me more than playing on my wizard and watching another wiz/sorc draining themselves on the first fight of a dungeon, whine about how they're out of mana and expect everyone else to carry them to the next rest stone.  They're too used to having their MP automatically regen in other games.  I become even more amused when they get kicked after whining about how non-regening MP sucks and how is better.

The system will weed out the good players and the leechers, pure and simple.  Personally, I look forward to the time past the first few weeks of "this game sucks" and "WoW is da bestest" when the kiddies trail off and the real player community starts to build and shine.

I agree. It is also a balancing thing. Mages can do really horrible damage but not all the time. You shouldn't waste a meteor shower on junk mobs.

I could actually see the same thing be done with hitpoints. No healers, no regen, conserve it or fail. It would offer a very different gameplay but it wouldn't be bad, you would just have to be smarter.

Originally posted by ChaosInc

No MP regen = player needs to be conservative and smarter about his gameplay

This concept already exists in DDO.  Nothing amuses me more than playing on my wizard and watching another wiz/sorc draining themselves on the first fight of a dungeon, whine about how they're out of mana and expect everyone else to carry them to the next rest stone.  They're too used to having their MP automatically regen in other games.  I become even more amused when they get kicked after whining about how non-regening MP sucks and how is better.

The system will weed out the good players and the leechers, pure and simple.  Personally, I look forward to the time past the first few weeks of "this game sucks" and "WoW is da bestest" when the kiddies trail off and the real player community starts to build and shine.

ORLY? Dare you to say that again when the leechers spam things like Archer looking for group, DPS warrior looking for group.... leechers will just find another way to leech. In FFXI it was mainly SAM and DRK for the leeches

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Actually jumping is just an event on the Y axis. It's really simple to implement.

I'd even say that technically jumping is already in the game. Just a configuration on the server to allow it or not.

2. Unreachable areas. They might not be so unreachable with jumping and take a lot of time to "configure" in the map design. This part is why I think it's all lazy design. :)

What if there is no Y axis? XI didn't have such a thing, and XIV doesn't seem too different in this respect.

Lazy, or just plain ol' "not worth spending resources on". 

If the director of the game tells the designers to do something, they sure as hell will if they want to keep their job. And I don't think a proper excuse is that "the director is too lazy to tell the designers that we need jumping in the game". It all comes down to costs.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Actually jumping is just an event on the Y axis. It's really simple to implement.

I'd even say that technically jumping is already in the game. Just a configuration on the server to allow it or not.

2. Unreachable areas. They might not be so unreachable with jumping and take a lot of time to "configure" in the map design. This part is why I think it's all lazy design. :)

What if there is no Y axis? XI didn't have such a thing, and XIV doesn't seem too different in this respect.

Lazy, or just plain ol' "not worth spending resources on". 

If the director of the game tells the designers to do something, they sure as hell will if they want to keep their job. And I don't think a proper excuse is that "the director is too lazy to tell the designers that we need jumping in the game". It all comes down to costs.

The benefit that jumping provides is minor compared to the costs in implementing it and the type of problems it creates with LOS, exploits, bunny rabbits jumping around town, etc.

When looking at the "value" jumping provides, it's not necessary.  I know this for a fact because it took NOTHING away from FFXI.  Anyone who played and loved FFXI did not care about jumping.  If people don't play FFXIV because there is no jumping, then it's their loss and the community's gain.

Originally posted by Hrayr2148

The benefit that jumping provides is minor compared to the costs in implementing it and the type of problems it creates with LOS, exploits, bunny rabbits jumping around town, etc.

When looking at the "value" jumping provides, it's not necessary.  I know this for a fact because it took NOTHING away from FFXI.  Anyone who played and loved FFXI did not care about jumping.  If people don't play FFXIV because there is no jumping, then it's their loss and the community's gain.

Some people were bothered by it. However, that's not because the game needed to have jumping feature, it was because the simple fact there wasn't jumping feature annoyed those players too much.

The only logical reasons were "stairs in Ordelle's caves" or "fences in Promyvion-Holla" but is that annoying enough that the devs should make jumping available? Can anyone really answer "yes" to that? Really now?

Guys, seriously, the jumping issue has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and it is disruptive to continue bringing it up. This is a discussion about MP regen and how the lack of it will affect party tactics, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to follow when the off-topic posts outnumber the on-topic posts. Drop it or take it elsewhere.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by ChaosInc

No MP regen = player needs to be conservative and smarter about his gameplay

This concept already exists in DDO.  Nothing amuses me more than playing on my wizard and watching another wiz/sorc draining themselves on the first fight of a dungeon, whine about how they're out of mana and expect everyone else to carry them to the next rest stone.  They're too used to having their MP automatically regen in other games.  I become even more amused when they get kicked after whining about how non-regening MP sucks and how is better.

The system will weed out the good players and the leechers, pure and simple.  Personally, I look forward to the time past the first few weeks of "this game sucks" and "WoW is da bestest" when the kiddies trail off and the real player community starts to build and shine.

I agree. It is also a balancing thing. Mages can do really horrible damage but not all the time. You shouldn't waste a meteor shower on junk mobs.

I could actually see the same thing be done with hitpoints. No healers, no regen, conserve it or fail. It would offer a very different gameplay but it wouldn't be bad, you would just have to be smarter.

 

A few people have stated or implied that only the mage classes (Thaumaturge and Conjurer) use MP. I haven't dredged up enough Alpha info to know for sure, but it doesn't seem like this is the case. One of the skills for Archer (Replenish) says that it consumes MP. And the following quote hints rather strongly that everyone in the party will require MP:

Sato (S): The party will all move together to where they need to go to achieve their goal, but it will be important to watch their MP. There is a class whose concept is “MP cost controller,” and that member will often be charged with helping the other party members conserve MP.

Perhaps non-mage classes won't have as many MP-consuming skills or will retain a fair amount of effectiveness after running out of MP, but I'm pretty sure all classes will have MP.

And on the topic of not regenerating hitpoints, I don't think that would work as well in an RPG. In something like Half-Life it's fine, because when you take damage it's your own fault. You're technically able to make it from start to finish without taking a single point of damage. The life meter is there to make sure you only screw up a certain number of times between here and the next health refill. But in an RPG, being hit is 100% inevitable and not due to a mistake or lack of skill. While there's some strategy to it, gear and randomness play a MUCH larger part than they do in other games. I don't think a fixed amount of HP would work unless avoiding damage was skill-based and not at all gear/luck-based but then you'd be playing an action game and not an RPG.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Hrayr2148

The benefit that jumping provides is minor compared to the costs in implementing it and the type of problems it creates with LOS, exploits, bunny rabbits jumping around town, etc.

When looking at the "value" jumping provides, it's not necessary.  I know this for a fact because it took NOTHING away from FFXI.  Anyone who played and loved FFXI did not care about jumping.  If people don't play FFXIV because there is no jumping, then it's their loss and the community's gain.

Some people were bothered by it. However, that's not because the game needed to have jumping feature, it was because the simple fact there wasn't jumping feature annoyed those players too much.

The only logical reasons were "stairs in Ordelle's caves" or "fences in Promyvion-Holla" but is that annoying enough that the devs should make jumping available? Can anyone really answer "yes" to that? Really now?

While the lack of jumping may not have been my main gripe with FFXI, it was rather annoying being glued to the ground.  It may sound simple, but I like the freedom of mobility and jumping breaks up the monotony of a long run (Bastok to Jeuno the first time, anyone?) or it's own little mini-game while waiting for a spawn or people to gather.  I can't tell you how many times I've just sat around, jumping around in my own little world while I killed time in other games. Considering the amount of time you spend "waiting" in FFXI, it really bugged me so much that i just played in windowed mode and web browsed.

Even if they implement a feature so that you can only jump every few seconds (not sure why this would be needed, but then again I can't comprehend why some people are pushing to exclude a simple jump feature) that would be perfectly fine.  The only reason I can honestly think of to exclude jumping is from a technical standpoint and that is to prevent possibly exploitation of the AI.

Regardless of my stance, FFXIV is the only game I'm truly excited for and I will play it either way.

---

Originally posted by Disdena

Sato (S): The party will all move together to where they need to go to achieve their goal, but it will be important to watch their MP. There is a class whose concept is “MP cost controller,” and that member will often be charged with helping the other party members conserve MP.

Perhaps non-mage classes won't have as many MP-consuming skills or will retain a fair amount of effectiveness after running out of MP, but I'm pretty sure all classes will have MP.

---

Hmmm MP Cost Controller... I wonder what that entails. Sounds to me like a very desirable class for a party (much like Bard was in FFXI). I wonder if there are unannounced classes that haven't been revealed to us yet.

---

Originally posted by Disdena

And on the topic of not regenerating hitpoints, I don't think that would work as well in an RPG. In something like Half-Life it's fine, because when you take damage it's your own fault. You're technically able to make it from start to finish without taking a single point of damage. The life meter is there to make sure you only screw up a certain number of times between here and the next health refill. But in an RPG, being hit is 100% inevitable and not due to a mistake or lack of skill. While there's some strategy to it, gear and randomness play a MUCH larger part than they do in other games. I don't think a fixed amount of HP would work unless avoiding damage was skill-based and not at all gear/luck-based but then you'd be playing an action game and not an RPG.

---

As much as SE seems to be emphasizing solo/casual play, I can't imagine them not having HP regen, but perhaps the aether crystals (or whatever they are called) will be necessary for that too. Speaking of those crystals... one thing I liked about FFXI was the element of danger in most zones. I remember fishing in Altepa desert with all the goblins, sabotenders, scorpions, etc. roaming around and being half scared. What a thrill that was. For whatever reason recent MMO's have become sooo soft and the devs try to hold Johnny's hand through everything. We wouldn't want to make the 12-year-olds cry right? I'm hoping FFXIV has that same element of danger and the crystal areas are like an oasis where people gather to form parties before moving out into the dangerous parts.

Originally posted by Sixpax

 I wonder if there are unannounced classes that haven't been revealed to us yet.

There are.

Originally posted by Sixpax

 I wonder if there are unannounced classes that haven't been revealed to us yet.

Yes well, I wonder if there are announced classes that haven't been revealed yet or if there are unannounced classes that have been revealed. Now that would be interesting to know....

Originally posted by jackmcleod

 unannounced classes that have been revealed. Now that would be interesting to know....

Yes, there are~!

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Originally posted by Sixpax

 I wonder if there are unannounced classes that haven't been revealed to us yet.

Yes well, I wonder if there are announced classes that haven't been revealed yet or if there are unannounced classes that have been revealed. Now that would be interesting to know....

Yeah that would be about as interesting as "can I haz jumpz0r?"

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by jackmcleod

Actually jumping is just an event on the Y axis. It's really simple to implement.

I'd even say that technically jumping is already in the game. Just a configuration on the server to allow it or not.

2. Unreachable areas. They might not be so unreachable with jumping and take a lot of time to "configure" in the map design. This part is why I think it's all lazy design. :)

What if there is no Y axis? XI didn't have such a thing, and XIV doesn't seem too different in this respect.

Lazy, or just plain ol' "not worth spending resources on". 

If the director of the game tells the designers to do something, they sure as hell will if they want to keep their job. And I don't think a proper excuse is that "the director is too lazy to tell the designers that we need jumping in the game". It all comes down to costs.

There is always a Y axis in 3d design... X, Y and Z. Unless you played on a 1px wide line on your screen?

Implementing such a feature AFTER the world is designed, would require all maps to be changed, which is good enough reason not to implement such a feature in prod. But in dev then it should be done. However, it appears we will not know their decision until beta 2. Most of the new features will only be implemented then it seems.