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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » POLL: 'Emphasized' Grouping

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123 posts found
  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

5/18/10 5:14:14 PM#41

I don't mind group activities, what I do mind is finding the group. After playing numerous mmos the biggest hinderance to putting together groups (at least in a pug setting) are required classes. Get rid of the requirements and I'm betting that there will be a lot more groups. From what I understand, this is what ArenaNet's philosphy will be in regards to Guild Wars 2.

  MMO_Doubter

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/28/09
Posts: 5133

5/18/10 5:16:18 PM#42
Originally posted by arenasb

I don't mind group activities, what I do mind is finding the group. After playing numerous mmos the biggest hinderance to putting together groups (at least in a pug setting) are required classes. Get rid of the requirements and I'm betting that there will be a lot more groups. From what I understand, this is what ArenaNet's philosphy will be in regards to Guild Wars 2.

In my experience, the greatest impediments are level difference and gear difference.

"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

5/18/10 5:18:45 PM#43
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Originally posted by arenasb

I don't mind group activities, what I do mind is finding the group. After playing numerous mmos the biggest hinderance to putting together groups (at least in a pug setting) are required classes. Get rid of the requirements and I'm betting that there will be a lot more groups. From what I understand, this is what ArenaNet's philosphy will be in regards to Guild Wars 2.

In my experience, the greatest impediments are level difference and gear difference.

 Those can be a problem as well but no where near the problem of finding a "tank" and/or a "healer". In almost every game I've played I could have filled a group of all dps in less than 5 minutes at just about any level. However, with the added class requirements for just about every group activity it could take hours or not at all.

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

5/18/10 5:20:22 PM#44

This whole argument on "forced" grouping or non-grouping or whatever is predicated on the extremely flawed assumption that "Every player should do all content in an MMO". 

 

This simply is a poor foundation principle to build an MMO on.  It's a fact that people have different tastes.  It's a fact that people have different playtimes.  It's a fact that gamers have different goals (see Bartle test).   If you're designing a game to appeal to only one niche of players, then yes, you can get away with having this as a foundation. 

 

However, given that most MMOs today strive to attract different gamers, it's logical to say that they need to make the assumption that different players will consume different types of content and in different ways.

 

As such, if a game has 100 group-only quests and 100 solo-only quests the it is not "forcing" players to group or solo.  It is simply saying that for the players that solo, there are 100 quests worth of content and for the players that group there are 100 quests worth of content.  If you only do one type of playing, you're not "forced" to do the other hundred as they are there for other players. 

This is the difference between a single player RPG and a MMO.  MMOs are designed for more than just YOU.  There has been no MMO that I've played in which I partook in all content.   My favourite example is crafting.  I hate crafting with a passion.  So in every game I play, I miss out on all the crafting content.  In order to experience the crafting content and associated quests and rewards, I would be "forced" to craft.  But I simply don't see it that way.  I see "Crafting" as being content that exists for other players that enjoy it.  The same thing with PvP.  I almost never PvP, but it exists for other players that enjoy it.  The same things apply to soloing and grouping.

Ultimately if you plan to rescrict yourself to a certain type of playstyle, it's good practice to find out how much of it is in any particular game.  Also, most games today allow solo content to be done in group and group content to be done solo (if you're capable or of higher level).  So really, they're quite flexible.

 

Anyhow, my point was that games only  "force" you to do things if your expectation is to do every single thing in the game, which ultimately isn't what designers had in mind for majority of the players.  (Although those that do more stuff obviously get more content.)

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Shadewalker

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/07
Posts: 299

5/18/10 5:31:55 PM#45
Originally posted by arieste

Anyhow, my point was that games only  "force" you to do things if your expectation is to do every single thing in the game, which ultimately isn't what designers had in mind for majority of the players.  (Although those that do more stuff obviously get more content.)

 I follow the logic of your post, but I don't agree with this conclusion. If you have a particular playstyle in mind but in order to level through the game you have to pursue another playstyle then you are being forced to do so. It works both ways, diehard groupers dislike being forced to do solo class quests in LoTRO, for example,  while diehard soloers dislike getting part-way through a solo questline only to find themselves up against a boss mob and so many minions that they are forced to group for that part of the quest. Then again, you may not want to raid but feel forced to do so because you want the best gear in order to PvP which you do want to do, and the best gear is only available to raiders.

So there are ways in which players don't want to do every single thing in the game but are nonetheless forced to do some things they don't want to do in order to render the things they do want to do viable.

Choice is the critical thing here, MMO's should optimise their market appeal by offering effective choice to all playstyles. No one playstyle should be considered more elite than another. The rewards should reflect the level of the challenge, and therefore the achievement, not simply be a factor of the number of players.

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

5/18/10 5:51:24 PM#46
Originally posted by Shadewalker
Originally posted by arieste

Anyhow, my point was that games only  "force" you to do things if your expectation is to do every single thing in the game, which ultimately isn't what designers had in mind for majority of the players.  (Although those that do more stuff obviously get more content.)

 I follow the logic of your post, but I don't agree with this conclusion. If you have a particular playstyle in mind but in order to level through the game you have to pursue another playstyle then you are being forced to do so. It works both ways, diehard groupers dislike being forced to do solo class quests in LoTRO, for example,  while diehard soloers dislike getting part-way through a solo questline only to find themselves up against a boss mob and so many minions that they are forced to group for that part of the quest. Then again, you may not want to raid but feel forced to do so because you want the best gear in order to PvP which you do want to do, and the best gear is only available to raiders.

So there are ways in which players don't want to do every single thing in the game but are nonetheless forced to do some things they don't want to do in order to render the things they do want to do viable.

Choice is the critical thing here, MMO's should optimise their market appeal by offering effective choice to all playstyles. No one playstyle should be considered more elite than another. The rewards should reflect the level of the challenge, and therefore the achievement, not simply be a factor of the number of players.

Again, it's a matter of outlook.  If "being the best" requires me to do stuff I don't enjoy doing, then I just re-evaluate my need to be the best.  And if "being the best" is more important, i'll do what needs to be done whereas if "doing only stuff i enjoy most" is more important, then i'll live without being the best. 

I am faced with this choice for the past 6 years in EQ2.  The very BEST gear comes from contested raid encounters.  To be able to do these encounters, I need to join an elite guild mostly full of people i dislike that requires 40 hour / week time commitment and being on a callout list.    This is not something i'm willing to do as it will take away from my enjoyment of the game.  So i'm content having 2nd best gear and having more fun. 

I harbour no hard feelings for the people who have that gear.  I actually am pretty happy to know that there is "something more" to the game beyond what I do, so that one day I too may dabble in it.  

 

As far as "solo players running into a group mob", well, that seems like the most natural possible thing.  Is it such an unreasonable storyline that while investigating something on your own you discovered something that requires more than one person to deal with?  

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  User Deleted
5/18/10 7:28:23 PM#47

So truly what is the difference? If grouping is emphasized its obviously a favored style of play. Once I allow the game to decide what to do with my game experience, that would be the time where I'll move on to bigger and better things. A game is a world and should provide a form of freedom or choice in terms of what you would like to feel and experience without having to weigh one path heavier than the other or leading people with a trail of cookie crumbs into a preferred mode of play.

Really, what is the difference between this and "forced grouping" when the end goal of both OP is ultimately the same. By the way, grouping and combat shouldn't be the end-all-be-all of any MMO experience. It's been done and its time to evolve the game culture beyond this simple we should bring back "forced/emphasized grouping".

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

5/18/10 7:37:22 PM#48
Originally posted by heerobya
Originally posted by Shadewalker

let's put a stop to the nonsense

They offer persistent online worlds to be enjoyed on servers populated with other real people, no more no less than that.  Those who wish to group for combat are perfectly welcome to do so, while those who prefer to adventure solo while interacting with their fellow players in other ways if they wish to do so should be equally welcome to do so and are not in any way second class players or social misfits. 

This is one of the best things I have ever read on MMORPG.com.

Bravo Shadewalker, bravo.

+infinity

 

In other words, you like solo friendly games, you don't care if they are not satisfying to those that like a challenging group game, and you're perfectly happy playing WoW, since it's a solo friendly game until you get to raiding. 

Yes, well, some of us would like to play something we find enjoyable, and it's not a WoW clone. 

We do understand you like your solo games. We don't. 

I know you think we should all be so grateful you're going to let us group in your solo friendly game, but no one that enjoys a good grouping game is asking for that. 

You're graciously giving us something we have no desire for, and acting like we should love it. 

A little condescending don't you think?

I can easily group in WoW all the way to the level cap. 

Why would I? WoW has the most boring game play in groups all the way to the level cap that I have ever encountered. 

Why would I want to group in a solo game? 

You can run around the rink with no skates on at a roller rink. Why would you?

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

5/18/10 7:52:32 PM#49
Originally posted by Jairoe03

So truly what is the difference? If grouping is emphasized its obviously a favored style of play. Once I allow the game to decide what to do with my game experience, that would be the time where I'll move on to bigger and better things. A game is a world and should provide a form of freedom or choice in terms of what you would like to feel and experience without having to weigh one path heavier than the other or leading people with a trail of cookie crumbs into a preferred mode of play.

Really, what is the difference between this and "forced grouping" when the end goal of both OP is ultimately the same. By the way, grouping and combat shouldn't be the end-all-be-all of any MMO experience. It's been done and its time to evolve the game culture beyond this simple we should bring back "forced/emphasized grouping".

The game doesn't "decide" on your experience.  The game provides X number of different experiences.  Some of them are group and some of them are solo  and some can be done either way.  It's your choice whether you want to do one, other or both. So it does exactly waht you say - it provides the choice.  The problem is with the playe r that makes the choice  NOT to do some of the content, but then feels left out because other players that made a different choice are enjoying that content.

 

Take a RL - some people do photography as a hobby, some people play baseball.  Photography is done solo, baseball requires a group.  The fact that both activities exist in the world, doesn't mean you're "forced" to group in order to enjoy your life.  You're only forced to group if you want to play baseball, because that's how baseball is played.

 

An MMO is the same way, it offers different types of experiences.  If you ONLY want to solo, you are limited to the solo experiences.  If you ONLY want to group, you're limited to group experiences.  Some people just have the expectation that ALL experiences available in a game will exactly the kind they want.  This won't happen, as games are designed for all kinds of different people.  So in the end, it's like you said - the game offers a choice.  The player just has to live with it, that's the hard part.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

5/18/10 8:16:42 PM#50
Originally posted by arieste
 

Take a RL - some people do photography as a hobby, some people play baseball.  Photography is done solo, baseball requires a group.  The fact that both activities exist in the world, doesn't mean you're "forced" to group in order to enjoy your life.  You're only forced to group if you want to play baseball, because that's how baseball is played.

 

Using your example, WoW is photography until you get to the level cap, then it is baseball. 

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

5/18/10 8:33:48 PM#51
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by arieste
 

Take a RL - some people do photography as a hobby, some people play baseball.  Photography is done solo, baseball requires a group.  The fact that both activities exist in the world, doesn't mean you're "forced" to group in order to enjoy your life.  You're only forced to group if you want to play baseball, because that's how baseball is played.

 

Using your example, WoW is photography until you get to the level cap, then it is baseball. 

Using my example, WoW gives you the choice of doing either or both. 

Now, I haven't actually played WoW, but I assume that there are solo mobs and quests available for players at cap as wel as other things to do solo - crafting, pvp, etc?  Or is there nothing at all that a player can do on their own at 80?

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

5/18/10 8:40:08 PM#52
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by arieste
 

Take a RL - some people do photography as a hobby, some people play baseball.  Photography is done solo, baseball requires a group.  The fact that both activities exist in the world, doesn't mean you're "forced" to group in order to enjoy your life.  You're only forced to group if you want to play baseball, because that's how baseball is played.

 

Using your example, WoW is photography until you get to the level cap, then it is baseball. 

Using my example, WoW gives you the choice of doing either or both. 

Now, I haven't actually played WoW, but I assume that there are solo mobs and quests available for players at cap as wel as other things to do solo - crafting, pvp, etc?  Or is there nothing at all that a player can do on their own at 80?

 

People pretty much solo to the level cap, then group for raiding after the level cap. 

I'ts not a choice of both. 

I'ts photography, then baseball. 

You don't need to group before the level cap. You can shoot your photos all day long. 

You need to group after the level cap. You have to join a baseball team, and there's no photo taking. 

Of course if all you like is taking photos, you can always roll an alt and start over gain. 

if all you like is baseball, you can powerlevel your character, and quickly get to the baseball game. 

  Murashu

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/06
Posts: 1397

5/18/10 8:47:29 PM#53
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

People pretty much solo to the level cap, then group for raiding after the level cap. 

I'ts not a choice of both. 

I'ts photography, then baseball. 

You don't need to group before the level cap. You can shoot your photos all day long. 

You need to group after the level cap. You have to join a baseball team, and there's no photo taking. 

But why do you need to group after the level cap? Because you've completed every bit of solo content in the game? It only takes a small portion of the available solo content to make it to max level so there is plenty there to keep even the most avid solist busy for a long while.

Joining the baseball team is only required if you plan on going to the world series. If you are happy with photo taking there is still a ton of it out there.

www.agonysend.org

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

5/18/10 8:48:21 PM#54
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by arieste
 

Take a RL - some people do photography as a hobby, some people play baseball.  Photography is done solo, baseball requires a group.  The fact that both activities exist in the world, doesn't mean you're "forced" to group in order to enjoy your life.  You're only forced to group if you want to play baseball, because that's how baseball is played.

 

Using your example, WoW is photography until you get to the level cap, then it is baseball. 

Using my example, WoW gives you the choice of doing either or both. 

Now, I haven't actually played WoW, but I assume that there are solo mobs and quests available for players at cap as wel as other things to do solo - crafting, pvp, etc?  Or is there nothing at all that a player can do on their own at 80?

 

People pretty much solo to the level cap, then group for raiding after the level cap. 

I'ts not a choice of both. 

I'ts photography, then baseball. 

You don't need to group before the level cap. You can shoot your photos all day long. 

You need to group after the level cap. You have to join a baseball team, and there's no photo taking. 

Of course if all you like is taking photos, you can always roll an alt and start over gain. 

if all you like is baseball, you can powerlevel your character, and quickly get to the baseball game. 

People solo, but must they?   No. 

People group for raiding, but must they? No.  (clarification, must they raid?)

Like I said, I don't play WoW specifically, but i do know countless people who don't have a capped character in any of their MMOs. 

If your goal in WoW is "get raid gear asap", then perhaps yes, you solo to cap, then group for raiding.  But is that everyone's goal? No.  People have a choice. 

If you weren't an anonymous random person on the internet, I'd actually make a bet with you that I can get myself WoW trial and manage to find people to group with and stuff to do in those groups long before I get halfway to the cap.

I truly don't know about the cap, but i find it hard to believe that there are no solo quests or mobs that can be killed solo at the cap level.  It's possible, but i just don't see how WoW can be so popular if it doesn't offer that option as all it's main competitors do.

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  wildtalent

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/07
Posts: 381

5/18/10 8:49:49 PM#55

I absolutely would.  This is more what I was leaning toward in my thread.  I like the bit about not being time consuming as well. That is the one downside with grouping for myself as I work weekends and watch my son during the week.  Since I have to watch him while I play, lengthy dungeon crawls, (while something I love) simply isn't feasable. 

I believe we had some coarse words in yet another thread as well, my apologies on that end.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

5/18/10 8:53:48 PM#56



Originally posted by Ihmotepp


Originally posted by twrule
 If grouping is really "significantly faster" than soloing, at what point does that become "forced" grouping? 


 
This will always be subjective. For some, if you gain 1 xp point more in a group, and it takes you one less second of play time to gain a level in a group  versus solo, that will be "forced grouping". 
 

In that case I guess you can say since solo is the fastest xp in games today, then they are all forced soloing games.

  madeux

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/02/08
Posts: 1868

I have little patience for humans...

5/18/10 9:05:17 PM#57

It's too bad that having fun with others just isn't enough for some people to group up.

And then they want to punish the rest of us when we sometimes prefer to go solo.

In real life (some of you may totally be lost now) there are things you cannot do alone as well as things you cannot do in groups.  Both have different challenges and benefits.  Why can't you just be happy with games doing the same thing?

  Timzilla

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 419

5/18/10 9:19:50 PM#58

Blizzard has already resolved any and all grouping issues. All any dev has to do now is copy and paste.

  Comnitus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 2509

Revenge is a dish best served with mayonnaise and those little cheesy things on sticks.

5/18/10 9:23:43 PM#59
Originally posted by Timzilla

Blizzard has already resolved any and all grouping issues. All any dev has to do now is copy and paste.

You're assuming that Blizzard came up with the best solution.

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

5/18/10 9:25:28 PM#60
Originally posted by Timzilla

Blizzard has already resolved any and all grouping issues. All any dev has to do now is copy and paste.

 What about non instanced group activities?

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