Originally posted by jinxxed0

All you people laughing at this are complete idiots. Second Life isnt some social 3D world for playing or whatever you may think. Its a tool for making money and being creative. Over the last 3 years I've made about 3 to 4 thousand dollars.

Whats your business?

This isn't about the fact that they own virtual land or create applications in second life, it's about the fact that a company was selling a product, and players bought said product with the impression that the product was one thing, when years later the company turns around and changes it.

Like if you bought a nice car, and a year later the dealership came in the middle of the night and swapped it for a crapheap

So I hope they win for consummer's sakes.

I don't think people quite understand what it means to say that one has purchased land in SL.  Players do not purchase server space.  They purchase servers.  Period.  Groups of players may purchase servers together as a group, or they may pay for part of a server.  But again, it is not just some amount of space on the server's HDD, or some percentage of CPU time.  It is the whole server.  The reason is simple: LL didn't have the funds to buy all the servers.  They had players purchasing for them.  That was always the agreement and understanding.  And by the way, these servers were damn expensive, in the several thousand dollars per year range on the small side.  The islands were tens of thousands on the low end.  4 Players suing for 5 million is really not all that surprising given how expensive the servers were.

This change in the TOS has changed that.  The TOS now makes it the way people think it was - server space.  LL is taking the servers from the players, the ones the players purchased.  They are now saying that the players are just renting from LL.  To make an analogy, suppose you bought a car somewhere.  Suppose then that the dealership changed their TOS and claimed that you were just renting the car from them, and that they might take it back or otherwise make it stop working whenever they please.  Get it?  Yeah, there are/were servers players could purchase that cost more than your car.

Originally posted by thanto

I don't think people quite understand what it means to say that one has purchased land in SL.  Players do not purchase server space.  They purchase servers.  Period.  Groups of players may purchase servers together as a group, or they may pay for part of a server.  But again, it is not just some amount of space on the server's HDD, or some percentage of CPU time.  It is the whole server.  The reason is simple: LL didn't have the funds to buy all the servers.  They had players purchasing for them.  That was always the agreement and understanding.  And by the way, these servers were damn expensive, in the several thousand dollars per year range on the small side.  The islands were tens of thousands on the low end.  4 Players suing for 5 million is really not all that surprising given how expensive the servers were.

 

This change in the TOS has changed that.  The TOS now makes it the way people think it was - server space.  LL is taking the servers from the players, the ones the players purchased.  They are now saying that the players are just renting from LL.  To make an analogy, suppose you bought a car somewhere.  Suppose then that the dealership changed their TOS and claimed that you were just renting the car from them, and that they might take it back or otherwise make it stop working whenever they please.  Get it?  Yeah, there are/were servers players could purchase that cost more than your car.

Makes sense, but these players are still paying for a "service", and if SL shutdown the servers go with it. I doubt anyone would see refunds either. It's still just a 'rental arrangement'.

these four people might have buisness's in SL, and sucessful ones.....but is SL a sound buisness model to bank on in the first place?? no video game (and thats what this is, DONT sugar coat it) lasts forever, once SL shuts down I sure hope these people have backup plans....oh wait, I think thier plan B was this lawsuit!

Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

You know whats so crazy is that people actually believe that Second Life is the only MMORPG with "insane" players on it.

If you actually believe that, then you're as delusional as a person can be.

Yep SL did not corner the market in crazy people , but since it allows for virtual 'ahem'  i think it attracts more people totally incapable of any type of healthy relationship in real life. I could write a book about all the crazy things that are common in there, but you are correct to point out its not the only one

I myself Support IntLibber, and the Lawsuite against Linden Lab for a few reasons.

Linden Lab Has allowed the following Groups to preform illegal actions within SecondLife, and Massive Abuse, Privacy Violations, and COpyright violations within the virtual world of SecondLife. The Copyrights Violated also Include Many MMORPG Titles, and MMO's as well as Movies Avatar, StarWars, StarTrek, Ect.

Not too long ago in the virtual world of SecondLife, My friend Intlibber got banned for no reason, as well as Tizzy TearDrop, and many other people from soviet woodbury. The reason is because the Onyx Team/Emerald Team, as well as JLU Have been Conspiring against people Using fake Legit projects that are suppose to protect content creators within SecondLife, But at the cost of illegally violating our Pirvacy in the virtual world, and working with Copybotters, or content theft as well. Jcool aka Fractured Crystal is the one who invited VLife, and helped design other various copybots, also installing Spyware on peoples computers.

At the same time the emerald Team is also working along with Skills Hak, and illegally violating TOS, and privacy by using Media, Clickable methods to illegally obtain PC info, and Voice chat, as well as possibly accessing SecondLifes database to find out what Client people are using, as well as other PC info that could be used to identify exactly where a person lives in the real world. This is also simular to a system called ZF Redzone, which is doing the same thing, and is all illegal.

What I am for sure about is that the Emerald Team, CDS/Skills Hak, Modular Systems/Onyx Project, and Possibly ZF Redzone, they are all involved in illegal activities around SecondLife, which included getting the Lindens/Employees to Ban a bunch of Woodbury accounts for no reason at all. Although Linden Lab has the right under their new agreement Please read below.

As for my comments on CDS/Client Detection System, by skills Hak. I am CDS Banned for being a copybotter myself so they say, But they refuse to provide any evidence, or Read my appeal. Just because I used a illegal viewer before april 30th. But what right does Skills Hak, and his team of illegal goons have to do this, when it is Linden Lab's choice not his, and all he is doing is slandering people around the grid, which is a violation of Community Standards. ALso anyone who would have the nerve to put h im in control of their estates is dumb.

IntLibber, and other various people setup virtual banking Services, Casinos, and other In game things including Land sells, and were there since early 05/06 Before any new TOS agreement took Place. Linden Lab did not have any really really good agreements in there, and they did indeed trick people into believing they owned their land 100%. When I started SecondLife in 08, I was told that I have the right to do whatever I want with my own Estate, and Simulator, and that it is mine. So IF Linden Lab did ever Ban me, I would take legal actions against Linden Lab as well myself.

Now I was at woodbury for weeks, I have tracked many Copybotters, Smiggles Decuir, She is a sneaky one which has massive connections with copybotters all around gor. She was caught wearing a skin that was stolen from Lara Hurley, and modified/re uploaded, as well as other People related to her, ect. I recieved a copybot report from Woodbury University, so I went there for over two weeks, I investergated the issue checked everyones content, using a copybot viewer myself before the New TOS went into place, and guess what. No one had any copybotted gear on, They were all just a bunch of clowns doing Funny stuff, Shooting things at eachother, But I didn't mind this, because it was their own sim to do whatever they wanted in, and would not be considered griefing. OF Course you would get trolls who would come there to Crash the estate from time to time, but the owners banned Griefers like this on sight, and Linden Lab accused the entire woodbury Network of supporting hacking, copyright theft, and everything in between that they could. They never did any such things to my knowledge, and Linden Lab shouldn't have banned tizzy just because a griefer from her sim did something. LL should have just banned the ones responsisble, unless they had evidence of her actually violating the TOS herself. She cannot fully make sure that griefers dont come into a simulator when its a place so anyone can build.

I have also shut down major Copybot networks like. Smiggles Decuir, Hope Shim, Catwoman Yootz, New Jack City ESTATE, and many others around SecondLife, and will continue to do so.

http://alphavilleherald.com/2010/05/emerald-site-security-broken-data-mining-shocks-linden-lab.html

http://alphavilleherald.com/2010/04/emerald-viewer-76000-unique-users-could-be-wrong.html

http://pastebin.com/VdtvrE6M
 

This is the CDS Source Code from the Beta proving they violate your privacy.

Second I would Like to announce the following.

For all of you out there in SecondLife, If you know me, then you know I am not a copybotter, but am accused by Skills Hak, and his team, with their refusual to remove two friends, or myself. Two of my friends didn't even use an illegal viewer, but even Skills Hak admitted that they used old data which could have gotten a lot of users incorrectly banned. Also you would know that I have Given Linden Lab, My RL Name, Real Life Location, Real Life ID, CreditCard #, Own my own estate. So if I were to commit a copyright violation against a Company, they could easily Lawsuite me, which is your Insurance Policy, that you can go ahead and White List me, without having to worry about the rumors about me because of the Emerald Team, and Skills Hak.

#1 Using an illegal Viewer is not against the Law, it violates  (TOS) which can result in your account gettiing banned nothing more.

#2 Copybotting, or stealing Intellectual property, Snapshot, Using a viewer, Open GL Exploit, GL Intercept, or any other method to steal another persons work is illegal and violating LAW.

#3 CDS,ZF Redzone, and Emerald Team/Onyx, do illegally Datamine people without their concent, or without a user accepting a privacy policy, or agreement upon installation, which is illegal in the U.S and against the LAW, and these users should have their Systems removed, and their accounts banned permently, if they refuse to listen to Linden Lab with taking the systems offline.

As FOR Linden Lab Copyright Violations.

SecondLife is one big Pirating network, and money Laundering Service.

Linden Lab allows the Following.

Zyngo, which is considered a game of skill Gambling  though in SL, which even thought a lot of people play it I think they have it fixed to cheat.

Copyrights against Lucas arts, Starwars, which others have created stuff based on copyrights Sony INC holds, and other Companies in the real World.

The Movie Avatar Skins Ripped, even though they changed the name, its illegal.

Simulators made after the movie Avatar within SecondLife.

Final Fantasy Characters Copy in SecondLife.

StarTrek Recreated in SL.

Aion Weapons and wings in SecondLife.

illegal mp3's Music, and Torrents, and movie rentals in SecondLife.

While Linden Lab will comply with any DMCA, they have made no offical policy that fully holds people responsible for their actions, or gave big word about any of it Also it will be impossible for Linden Lab to target all content which violates copyright, and will only remove content specified, so if 2000 users created the same thing after star wars, and you report intellectual property theft, they will only remove that single item, not every item thats the same. They do this by UUID.

As for Onyx, bypassing their detection is simple, and we have confirmed. Just Re Upload Sculpt maps, and Images/textures you are copybotting, place it onto the objects as its being copy with the copybot being able to do this for all, and it cannot detect, however it is easier for Linden Lab to ban someone like this.

These are the reasons I back IntLibber, and Woodbury, as well as others who have been illegally vioalted by Linden Lab. I hope that people can understand this, and do not follow any of these guys illegal ways within SecondLife. Stay away from emerald, Stay away from Skills Hak, ZF Redzone Creators, and you will be more safe.

For those of you who are My friends As content Creators, Feel free to add me to your WhiteList, you probabily dont know my SL name, But that is okay, you will know who I am when you read my profile and hear me, and I will continue to shut down copybotting using my methods I have been using to put copybotters out of business the best I can around our grid, and report stolen content when found to you. Also be aware that I am unbable to provide as much support on this as I used to due to Skills Hak, and the emerald Team putting Limits on it because of their retard systems and money scams from systems that fully protect and dont.

** AS for my final Statement to creators**

Dont just believe Copybotters, or people I know, or people like me are responsible just because we have used illegal Viewers so they can it, because we are not the only ones who do. The emerald Team uses illegal viewers, which Disguize the Emerald Viewer when they login with them and since it is on Linden Lab allow list is virtually undetectable. Think about it Creators, IT is easy for them to do anything they want to with the connections they have with Skills Hak, Linden Lab employes, and Legal Client that makes them look all legal to help them preform content theft themselfs. Also Dont think that these people might not use null accounts, Hack big companies not limited but to. RedGrave, Qhud, or other RP systems, then claim copybotters did it, delete the account all evidence get rid of the PC that did it, ect. Then Claim that they should buy their protection, ect, so they make more money.

700 L$ Monthly is what $3 usd Multiply that by 2000 + creators which believe in them, and that is a lot of money, probabily more than you evne make, if not way more for a simple lsl script, which they dont even bother doing as much work on, as we all do.

All my work in SL is non profit when it comes to reporting theft, and helping the community, these guys charge you for Faster versons of emerald, as well as CDS, and protection, which doesnt fully protect, ect.  My so called illegal Viewer was way faster in every way, and was free, which provided functions that made Emerald Defunct, Our new viewer is under development for private use ourselfs. 

My viewer 2 Seconds or less to load a profile image. Emerald 5-6 seconds or more, Insane. Also we can be sure ours doesnt spy on us.

ALSO Skills Hak, has caused me over $5,000 USD in damages, because Im banned form hunreds of Sims, I could hold him Libel for Slander, and false claims in Court if I had the money to sue his ass myself. and this price is going up every month. 5,000 USD in tier costs or more, Plus all the Items I have legally purchased over 38 Thousand inventory items total, which cannot be replaced, and if I had to make a new account because of him, or emerald Team, so help me god its a big loss of money, which is why Linden lab needs to get Rid of Skills Hak, Emerald Team, Onyx, and JLU., This type of power should not be left in a users Hands in any way but only Linden Lab. If a user wants to ban someone off land or estate, they can do it using conventinal methods only, not Spyware.

Hope this info helps why I support Intlibber and all the rest who are against these illegal users in SecondLife.

Also if your privacy has been violated, and you feel they have broken the law without informing you, then file a internet crime complaint against them, because I already have filed against Emerald, Skills Hak, Ect. the more they get, the more it will help, but dont do it because I say so, DO it because they broke the Law, and or illegally violated your privacy.

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

These fools sueing have got to be the most pathetic basement dwellers on earth. They probably filed the lawsuit completely stoned thinking it was the best idea evar....

Oh shit, now I'm gonna get sued for defamation of character...good luck trying to squeeze water from this stone

To all the haters - Saying these properties don't exist is like saying websites don't exist - the coding and images and etc exist somewhere and these people paid real money for it.

Originally posted by thanto

I don't think people quite understand what it means to say that one has purchased land in SL.  Players do not purchase server space.  They purchase servers.  Period.  Groups of players may purchase servers together as a group, or they may pay for part of a server.  But again, it is not just some amount of space on the server's HDD, or some percentage of CPU time.  It is the whole server.  The reason is simple: LL didn't have the funds to buy all the servers.  They had players purchasing for them.  That was always the agreement and understanding.  And by the way, these servers were damn expensive, in the several thousand dollars per year range on the small side.  The islands were tens of thousands on the low end.  4 Players suing for 5 million is really not all that surprising given how expensive the servers were.

 

This change in the TOS has changed that.  The TOS now makes it the way people think it was - server space.  LL is taking the servers from the players, the ones the players purchased.  They are now saying that the players are just renting from LL.  To make an analogy, suppose you bought a car somewhere.  Suppose then that the dealership changed their TOS and claimed that you were just renting the car from them, and that they might take it back or otherwise make it stop working whenever they please.  Get it?  Yeah, there are/were servers players could purchase that cost more than your car.

 

 So can these unfortunate victims produce a bill of sale that says they 'purchaced' those servers? Some written documentation of this 'original' TOS that was altered? To me the whole concept of these virtual islands is a bit hard to comprehend.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to buy your own 'real' server and then license the software to create your island?

What advantage is there in these virtual worlds that would validate such a large investment with no physical property exchanging hands?

I hear a lot of talk about Art, but what kind of art are we talking about here? Is it legal in the united states, or is that why they need this virtual haven to distribute it from?

Originally posted by xaldraxius

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to buy your own 'real' server and then license the software to create your island?

Yep, that's about the only way you would actually 'own' anything. As is, you are renting a service from SL (the hosts).

What advantage is there in these virtual worlds that would validate such a large investment with no physical property exchanging hands?

By paying for a large amount of land from LL (monthly), you can sublet it out to other players that can't meet their minimum parcel rates. A *lot* of players do this in both SL and Entropia.

I hear a lot of talk about Art, but what kind of art are we talking about here? Is it legal in the united states, or is that why they need this virtual haven to distribute it from?

People upload their own textures, maybe even models (fairly sure after looking at all the penis-people). I know the game has it's own scripting language too, which allows you to make your private worlds do things that others can't (gameplay-wise). By all means the art assest are owned by the players, but even if you worte scripts, you don't own the rights to the tools or engine.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by thanto

I don't think people quite understand what it means to say that one has purchased land in SL.  Players do not purchase server space.  They purchase servers.  Period.  Groups of players may purchase servers together as a group, or they may pay for part of a server.  But again, it is not just some amount of space on the server's HDD, or some percentage of CPU time.  It is the whole server.  The reason is simple: LL didn't have the funds to buy all the servers.  They had players purchasing for them.  That was always the agreement and understanding.  And by the way, these servers were damn expensive, in the several thousand dollars per year range on the small side.  The islands were tens of thousands on the low end.  4 Players suing for 5 million is really not all that surprising given how expensive the servers were.

 

This change in the TOS has changed that.  The TOS now makes it the way people think it was - server space.  LL is taking the servers from the players, the ones the players purchased.  They are now saying that the players are just renting from LL.  To make an analogy, suppose you bought a car somewhere.  Suppose then that the dealership changed their TOS and claimed that you were just renting the car from them, and that they might take it back or otherwise make it stop working whenever they please.  Get it?  Yeah, there are/were servers players could purchase that cost more than your car.

 

Makes sense, but these players are still paying for a "service", and if SL shutdown the servers go with it. I doubt anyone would see refunds either. It's still just a 'rental arrangement'.

In the same sense that buying a house in a gated community is "paying for a service", in that it is completely dissimilar, sure.

Originally posted by thanto

Originally posted by GTwander

 

Makes sense, but these players are still paying for a "service", and if SL shutdown the servers go with it. I doubt anyone would see refunds either. It's still just a 'rental arrangement'.

In the same sense that buying a house in a gated community is "paying for a service", in that it is completely dissimilar, sure.

Um, you pay fees for whatever services the GC is running (security, landscapers, etc)... but even if you own a home (which is rare, because many simply lease them) you can be voted out by the homeowner's association. I had a bud get kicked from one for throwing too many weekend parties, I guess your not allowed to even be on the streets if you don't live there.

i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement

oh and if you want a prime example of how virtual property works as anyone who owned peoperty or business in there.com

Originally posted by cylon8

i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement

I got a call today from some census thing on CA's budget crises', and one of the questions was "are you for attaching state sales taxes to things not currently taxed?"... I asked if he meant online game subs, things like this, etc - but he couldn't give a definite answer. My opinion though, is "yes", and I am surprised that nobody has had to pay state taxes on this stuff up till now. Never even thought of it.

8 cents on the dollar per subscription is nothing, but would mean a lot over time, and with how many people do it. Then again, maybe these taxes already figure into the sub-rates, though it may not.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by cylon8

i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement

I got a call today from some census thing on CA's budget crises', and one of the questions was "are you for attaching state sales taxes to things not currently taxed?"... I asked if he meant online game subs, things like this, etc - but he couldn't give a definite answer. My opinion though, is "yes", and I am surprised that nobody has had to pay state taxes on this stuff up till now. Never even thought of it.

8 cents on the dollar per subscription is nothing, but would mean a lot over time, and with how many people do it. Then again, maybe these taxes already figure into the sub-rates, though it may not.

 Theres a few problems with the sales taxation though. For one thing, our monthly sub is just that, a subscription to a service, not the actual purchase/sale of a product. So perhaps they could get the tax from the sale of the game itself, but not a tax on the monthly sub. Along with that, many of the games we play are not even hosted in our country (let alone the state) and does not go through any sort fo regulation or anything inw hich the state touches, so there would really be no way for them to touch the money (or the records of the subscriptions in order to even make sure people ar egetting taxed properly) going back and forth between ourselves and the servers/sites in other countries. If anything i could see the federal government getting involved in trying to tax online services/subscriptions liek gaming, but not the states.

Originally posted by Czanrei

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

lol.  See, this is what happens when people really dont get a 'real' life.

 

That post is coming from someone posting on a mmo site himself...? Get a clue is what is actually needed there.

Most people in SL who have steady businesses can make anywhere from 500-2k USD per month with a decent setup. And that isn't even some of the actually successful businesses who can make six figure incomes per year in SL. So you think they need to get a life? They probably have a better one than you Cik_Asalin.

 

wow dude no offence but you kinda sound like you have no life. just because they make money dosent mean they have a "Life" do you know what the meaning of "a life" is? its where you go out, have fun, make friends and so on. you can't do that over the internet..sorry sad but true. maybe some of them have lives but most of them really dont.

Interesting to see what becomes of this. Not because of SL, from this gamer's perspective that app is 'whacked', but speaking of the virtual economy perspective...

If they win or change anything, what will it do to the virtual 'gold' farming companies around the world? Would it change how games have to stop them? tax them? Would consumers have the right to sue the developers for allowing them into their virtual economy?

Here's Pandora's Box, Judge, open it if ya dare.

I think they got a case and everyone that thinks it stupid just took them selves out on a date considering this is an MMO website.