I think it's pretty easy to see the direction Blizz is going with the cash shops.  Even back when it was just the monk & lil kt I think anyone with a grain of sense knew it wouldn't stop there.  I'd posted a list of items on the wow boards in progression of what I believed would be available in the shop eventually, and lo and behold my thread was deleted- go figure.

Mounts were my third item in that list iirc, with tabard packs being second.  At any rate, now that they have pets and one mount, I think it's only a matter of time before they do allow packs of 4-5 graphic adjustments to guild tabards, with who knows how many packs they can devise.  I think it will also lead to more BoA items, or reskins of the same ones we have now (leveling up from 1-85 in a BoA set reskinned to look like classic T1? Awesome).  I think XP potions may become available, but with the BoA leveling items as well as the recruit-a-friend option they kinda already do. Then a really shifty way to break more ground would be to have recipes/schematics that create fluff items.  They'd still be just for looks, but would completely change server economies, which is just a baby step away from putting things in the shop that actually affect stats.

I'm not saying this is an all inclusive list, and I hope they just stop with mounts, but cash is a great temptation and we've already seen how Blizz is edging slowly into the RMT market.  To think they really will just stop with what's available now would just be ignorant.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Either wow is following the example set by other companies setting up cash shops in the subscription games or they are setting an example for others to follow.  You cannot have it both ways.  Since there are already many other companies that are doing this, it makes blizzard a follower in this situation.  Those other companies didn't need blizzard to make a cash shop before they got into the mix, so it wasn't blizzard fault.  Blizzard jumping into RMT doesn't help the situation one bit, but it was something that was already happening.  Even if blizzard didn't make a cash shop it wasn't going to stop other games from doing so.  The trend was already underway. 

 

Honestly, now that WoW has a cash shop, I think it is easier for FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2, etc to convince their fans that it's acceptable.

I think at least one of the big AAA releases will now switch to having a cash shop at release.

Guild wars already has a cash shop, so a cash shop in GW2 shouldn't be a big surprise.  The developers of swtor have been talking about micro transactions for a while now and EA has mandated all of their games have some sort of downloadable saleable content by 2011 or something like that, so the choice there was already set.  I don't really follow FFXIV so I have no idea there.

The point is that these things were already happening.  If blizzard didn't get invovled I doubt it would have any impact on the choices these companies have already made. 

You are right that the more people that get exposed to the grooming going on right now will come to accept more and more cash shop aspects, but that is a different point than what was being discussed.  Still a very valid point. 

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Either wow is following the example set by other companies setting up cash shops in the subscription games or they are setting an example for others to follow.  You cannot have it both ways.  Since there are already many other companies that are doing this, it makes blizzard a follower in this situation.  Those other companies didn't need blizzard to make a cash shop before they got into the mix, so it wasn't blizzard fault.  Blizzard jumping into RMT doesn't help the situation one bit, but it was something that was already happening.  Even if blizzard didn't make a cash shop it wasn't going to stop other games from doing so.  The trend was already underway. 

 

Honestly, now that WoW has a cash shop, I think it is easier for FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2, etc to convince their fans that it's acceptable.

I think at least one of the big AAA releases will now switch to having a cash shop at release.

Wait a second, you think that because Blizzard introduced their cash shop that will give other AAA titles carte blanche to release thiers?  I hate to break the news to you, but as long as that's a viable revenue stream for that title, their going to introduce the shop, whether blizzard does it or not.  Didn't EQ2 introduce a cash shop before Blizzard, or do you not consider EQ2 a AAA title?  Hasn't Bioware already hinted that they will offer some sort of out of game shop before this mount from Blizzard went on sale?

You people are delusional if you think this was not the trend already.  And it will continue to be the trend, whether Blizzard jumped on the bandwagon or not.  Blizzard gets the most flak because due to their subscriber numbers they stand to make a ton of profit from any cash shop purchase and the anti wow crowd can't stand the fact that game continues to make money like it grows on trees.  Those other titles don't need to convince their fans of anything.  If the fans don't like it, they won't buy it, end of story. 

I get it now.  You're not afraid of cash shops in general or that companies are convincing people to buy stuff.  You're afraid that market segment actually exists, ones who have absolutely no problem buying this stuff. 

Originally posted by Rajen

I ended up canceling my account over the pet store fiasco that went down earlier. I am not going to give them money to develop items and content that I won't ever have access to with that money.

 

I feel like Blizzard is slowly trying to condition its user base, and ease them into the money shop and monthly fee at the same time slowly. The pet shop isn't necessarily a pet shop anymore, a mount is not a pet.

 

Whether you thought the mount was cool or not, it was definitely 'different' looking. My concern is in the future Blizzard might only be putting up some of the best looking and unique items onto the item shop, and if you aren't buying them you are just getting the generic stuff. I can hear people saying it now "It's only cosmetic" well that may be true, but looks go a LONG way in MMOs.

 

Hopefully this is as far as Blizzard goes, I quit until Cataclysm to see which direction they will be taking with the game. I will resub when Cataclysm is out but if they even touch gear (gear dye, different gear look, etc) I'll drop it forever. The "it's only cosmetic" excuse won't fly.

 I canceled my account for this reason also but I won't resubscribe when Cataclysm comes out. 

They were making money hand over fist with subs alone.   No need to get greedy with a in game store.  It is Blizzard's game to do what they want but it is also my money to spend as I like.   I'm sure Blizzard will make more money with a store than they will in losing subs but they be getting anymore of mine and I've been playing since day 1.

Originally posted by tanoril

You people are delusional if you think this was not the trend already.  And it will continue to be the trend, whether Blizzard jumped on the bandwagon or not.  Blizzard gets the most flak because due to their subscriber numbers they stand to make a ton of profit from any cash shop purchase and the anti wow crowd can't stand the fact that game continues to make money like it grows on trees.  Those other titles don't need to convince their fans of anything.  If the fans don't like it, they won't buy it, end of story. 

I get it now.  You're not afraid of cash shops in general or that companies are convincing people to buy stuff.  You're afraid that market segment actually exists, ones who have absolutely no problem buying this stuff. 

I think the big issue with Blizzard going this direction is twofold:

1. The developed the cash shop long after the original game was released- not as a part of the original game and many players view this as a bait-and-switch as well as a dealbreaker.

2. I don't know that the fluff shop is so much of big deal against Blizz for WoW's sake, as it is the ripples that hit the rest of the genre.  You cannot deny that due to WoW's freakish success that what Blizz enacts is watched by the entire community as to what is deemed acceptable by the (m)asses.  It's one thing if F2P games start releasing game-altering things via RMT- some titles may follow suit and others may not, but if Blizz goes that route then there is a much much greater chance that AAA titles will bring this dynamic in, as well as a dual sub + RMT model which imo is frankly ridiculous.  Is it a double-standard? Absolutely- but that's what comes with being the leader.

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by tanoril

You people are delusional if you think this was not the trend already.  And it will continue to be the trend, whether Blizzard jumped on the bandwagon or not.  Blizzard gets the most flak because due to their subscriber numbers they stand to make a ton of profit from any cash shop purchase and the anti wow crowd can't stand the fact that game continues to make money like it grows on trees.  Those other titles don't need to convince their fans of anything.  If the fans don't like it, they won't buy it, end of story. 

I get it now.  You're not afraid of cash shops in general or that companies are convincing people to buy stuff.  You're afraid that market segment actually exists, ones who have absolutely no problem buying this stuff. 

I think the big issue with Blizzard going this direction is twofold:

1. The developed the cash shop long after the original game was released- not as a part of the original game and many players view this as a bait-and-switch as well as a dealbreaker.

2. I don't know that the fluff shop is so much of big deal against Blizz for WoW's sake, as it is the ripples that hit the rest of the genre.  You cannot deny that due to WoW's freakish success that what Blizz enacts is watched by the entire community as to what is deemed acceptable by the (m)asses.  It's one thing if F2P games start releasing game-altering things via RMT- some titles may follow suit and others may not, but if Blizz goes that route then there is a much much greater chance that AAA titles will bring this dynamic in, as well as a dual sub + RMT model which imo is frankly ridiculous.  Is it a double-standard? Absolutely- but that's what comes with being the leader.

You know what though, Blizzard is getting faulting because it's responding to market demand.  Blizzard is a business first, everyone knows this, so when they make a business decision such as this, everyone cries to high heaven about it.  I don't care how much money you make, 4-6 million bucks isn't pocket change and if that's just sitting on the table, you're gonna try to capitilize on that.  Again, I fail to see how it's a bait and switch when they've been offering items out of game for years now before the cash shop even existed.  How many people spent a ton of money on the TCG cards just to get the Spectral Tiger?  You are correct, if Blizzard starts offering game altering items it will send a message to the industry, but I as successful as their cash shop is now because of their success, I think they stand to lose the most if they did offer those items (lost subs). 

My point is the cash shop/microtransaction revenue stream was already a trend.  If a game charges you money for a server transfer, that's a microtransaction.  These things were already prevelent in the genre and I see no reason why future titles such as Star Wars or Final Fantasy wouldn't capitilize on that revenue. 

Kinda funny.

When the pets first appeared I said right then that it was the start of the end. People disagreed saying "its only pets" and "half goes to charity" etc. I pointed out that a company like blizzard does not go to the time and effort of designing and inputting a cash shop to sell a couple of vanity pets only .. it'll get worse. People laughed.

Now comes the mount. "Its only a mount" they say, yup. Next it will be "Its only cosmetic armor overlays - just makes you look good does not add stats* *its only a XP / Rep bonus potion" *Its only ONE pay-content raid* etc etc.

It'll get worse. As other posters have mentioned in a couple of years people will look back and see that it all started with a couple of vanity pets.

Now dont be fooled, I am aware other companys have tried cash shops, cryptic spings to mind with thier arse-backward "pay for respec" items. These companys are hammered on these and other boards for such moves. Blizzard is allowed to slide by though.

Make no mistake, Blizzard is a market leader in this field. If cash shops become a staple for Blizzard then all future games will embrace the model. Unless you want to see cash shops become a staple in every online game you play YOU personally need to stand against it now, not later. Am I saying you should all quit WoW? No. While that would be ideal its unrealistic, just write some feedback and support some posts against the cash shop in WoW.

May sound like doom and gloom, but in 2 years I'll still be here to say "told you so"

They will make all sorts of excuses and justifications for cash shops. One is that MMO subs have not seen an increase in ~3 years due to the bad economy so they are searching for alternate ways to make income. Rubbish. Gas goes up daily people still drive cars. If MMO's went up in sub cost by a buck we'd all still play. Honestly if a buck a month is an issue to you then you have far greater concerns than your MMO sub.

Bottom line. To make an expac takes X man hours and Y cash invested, it sells for $25-40 depending on the game. Or you can have a programmer and artist reskin a horse model in a couple of days and sell it for $25? What are the money men at Blizzard gonna want to see more of? Expacs and content added? or Shiney horses? You decide.

Originally posted by demarc01

Bottom line. To make an expac takes X man hours and Y cash invested, it sells for $25-40 depending on the game. Or you can have a programmer and artist reskin a horse model in a couple of days and sell it for $25? What are the money men at Blizzard gonna want to see more of? Expacs and content added? or Shiney horses? You decide.

QFE, as players we really have to speak with our wallets on this one.

Is it a double standard?  Perhaps, if you want to QQ about it.  You agree to their ToS/EULA.  If you do not intend to follow it or if you intend to violate it, well - do not be surprised if you experience the consequences of such actions.  The idea of discussing buying the foofoo mount as opposed to somebody farming items to sell for cash is a little off though, and it is not really a fair comparison.

Blizzard's foofoo mount, the companions, etc - do not take anything away from the game world.  Are you going to argue that it is a case of a person not having to spend 161g before discounts for each character and that will throw off the world economy?  Cause, you know - that is what you are looking at here.  That as opposed to people farming items to sell for real money which does affect the world economy, server resources, etc...?  I see no comparison in the least.

Now if you were talking about CCP, EVE, and PLEX... well there you would have a pretty good debate.

Originally posted by demarc01

 

Bottom line. To make an expac takes X man hours and Y cash invested, it sells for $25-40 depending on the game. Or you can have a programmer and artist reskin a horse model in a couple of days and sell it for $25? What are the money men at Blizzard gonna want to see more of? Expacs and content added? or Shiney horses? You decide.

This part right here. 10000 times this part right here.

Let the industry focus on profits, and your quality of gameplay will suffer. Gotta act on this, or they will.

Originally posted by pojung

Originally posted by demarc01

 

Bottom line. To make an expac takes X man hours and Y cash invested, it sells for $25-40 depending on the game. Or you can have a programmer and artist reskin a horse model in a couple of days and sell it for $25? What are the money men at Blizzard gonna want to see more of? Expacs and content added? or Shiney horses? You decide.

This part right here. 10000 times this part right here.

Let the industry focus on profits, and your quality of gameplay will suffer. Gotta act on this, or they will.

Right fact, wrong conclusion.

How long does it take to reskin a horse? A day? Two?

Lets say they reskin another horse and make a few billions at a cost of 200$ (artist salary). Does it mean they will completely stop doing any Xpac and deny themselves several more billions at a cost of several millions (salary of everyone involved with the Xpack)?  The answer is: Absolutely not! The mount-for-real-cash is a big thing, but its NOT a replacement. In fact, its an incentive to make more things, both paid and free. Now they have even more money to spend on WoW things - and I doubt they will spend them all making new pay-per-horsies.

I'm assuming most people have never read the Terms of Service fully. In a nutshell, you do not own anything in the World of Warcraft universe- your account, your characters, or any items they posess. You simply rent these things for the fee of 15 bucks a month. Blizzard states that everything you do is THEIR property. Therefore, by selling accounts or items for your benefit, you are trading property that was never yours to begin with. And that is why Blizzard and other companies can do it themselves.

Originally posted by BoudahXL

So I have this coworker, which would pay me 10$ for a tournament pet. Normally I'd smile and say, we are not allowed to do this but I think it's not gonna hurt anyone... it's a pet after all.

So this guy was one pet short from his 50 pets acheivement, he was short on gold and gave me 10$ for a pet and acheivement.

Did he cheat the game? Did he unbalance the economy?

What if he instead purchased a pet on the Blizzard store (legally)? Would he still be considered a cheater? What if he purchased a mount which would be available to all his twinks on his account not having to spend the gold amongst all his toon for a flying mount?

If someone pay real money to purchase a mount and then have more gold in his toons purse to buy better gear in-game, is it considered cheating?

Let's not QQ, just want to see if people have double standards or are we just looking the other way?

 Difference is, the mounts are the cheap part of getting a new level of ground/flying mount speed. It's the training that is the large cost.

So spending 25$ real life money only saves you maybe 150? gold maximum in game. You can make that in a single day of running dailies or doing quests. Or farming.

Point is it's not that big of a gain in-game. Now if they sold the epic flying training costs online for 25$ real world cash that would be thousands and thousands of gold, and they'd never do that.

You can get a free epic flying mount by not sucking in a heroic culling of stratholme run. \

The horsie is purley asethetic.

And I do agree that the more money they make off of crap like this, the more they'll have to invest in server stability, new expansion content, etc. So 1-2 days time to reskin another mount to get millions in profit used to make entirely new expansions, not to mention help fund the creation of Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and the next Blizzard MMO?

I think that's pretty win and a really smart move on their part.

And no, I didn't buy one. Why not? I don't measure my e-peen by the creature between my legs... lawl

When I buy a game I buy a game to play not to constanty buy stuff to earn ahcievments or progress my character using real money.

Originally posted by Acalex

I'm assuming most people have never read the Terms of Service fully. In a nutshell, you do not own anything in the World of Warcraft universe- your account, your characters, or any items they posess. You simply rent these things for the fee of 15 bucks a month. Blizzard states that everything you do is THEIR property. Therefore, by selling accounts or items for your benefit, you are trading property that was never yours to begin with. And that is why Blizzard and other companies can do it themselves.

SInce it 'belongs' to Blizzard regardless (and I'd like to see that tested in court), 'selling' your account to another player should be totally legal, as Blizzard has not lost ownership of anything.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Acalex

I'm assuming most people have never read the Terms of Service fully. In a nutshell, you do not own anything in the World of Warcraft universe- your account, your characters, or any items they posess. You simply rent these things for the fee of 15 bucks a month. Blizzard states that everything you do is THEIR property. Therefore, by selling accounts or items for your benefit, you are trading property that was never yours to begin with. And that is why Blizzard and other companies can do it themselves.

SInce it 'belongs' to Blizzard regardless (and I'd like to see that tested in court), 'selling' your account to another player should be totally legal, as Blizzard has not lost ownership of anything.

On top of this, I'm not selling the property that isn't mine to begin with...I'm selling the time and effort (my labor) it took to progress Blizzard's pixels to where they are today  

:P

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

SInce it 'belongs' to Blizzard regardless (and I'd like to see that tested in court), 'selling' your account to another player should be totally legal, as Blizzard has not lost ownership of anything.

But this is YOU making money off of their game, something that 99.9999% of video game developers would say a big no no too.

Now if they add in a paid account transfer service for you to sell your account to another player and they get the profits, then it's legal, but kind of ridiculous.

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by pojung

Originally posted by demarc01

 

Bottom line. To make an expac takes X man hours and Y cash invested, it sells for $25-40 depending on the game. Or you can have a programmer and artist reskin a horse model in a couple of days and sell it for $25? What are the money men at Blizzard gonna want to see more of? Expacs and content added? or Shiney horses? You decide.

This part right here. 10000 times this part right here.

Let the industry focus on profits, and your quality of gameplay will suffer. Gotta act on this, or they will.

Right fact, wrong conclusion.

How long does it take to reskin a horse? A day? Two?

Lets say they reskin another horse and make a few billions at a cost of 200$ (artist salary). Does it mean they will completely stop doing any Xpac and deny themselves several more billions at a cost of several millions (salary of everyone involved with the Xpack)?  The answer is: Absolutely not! The mount-for-real-cash is a big thing, but its NOT a replacement. In fact, its an incentive to make more things, both paid and free. Now they have even more money to spend on WoW things - and I doubt they will spend them all making new pay-per-horsies.

An hour. The model itself is 5 years old. The skin was already previously designed for boss fights elsewhere. You're looking at a reskinning that has taken place on countless models by countless artists- this one would be no less 'routine' than any of the others. Sure, 'play test' it, make sure it absolutely looks right, but in raw development, you're looking at an hour at best, considering you copy-paste and didn't actually generate anything new.

Close. You merge two 'givens' but glaze over what the focus obviously becomes. You play between two concepts: highest yield (HY for future reference), and highest yield per investment (HYPI). Both concepts are always explored in 'business'. But the one is purely profit-oriented, whereas the other must deliver a 'product' to speak of, if it wishes to pull in profits at all. That, and the fact that the HYPI cannot exist without the HY makes it rather ... obvious that you don't do *entirely* without the HY?

If a business finds out *just how* lucritive the HYPI is, that becomes the focus of efforts. You're no longer product-driven, but profit-driven. The conclusion stands.

Given how little it took to 'design' the horse (yes, plenty of Zbrush artists have videos that design entire bodies with moving parts completely from scratch with finished detailing within 2-4 hours, amongst other industry tools and concepts), it shouldn't have been charged for. PERIOD.

But given the focus of interest by the company in selling it for the huge mark-up that it is, shows a *lot* of wasted focus that should have gone into the actual gameplay itself. Therein is the crux.

The highlighted segment is the best joke I ever read on these forums or any other. What the hell do you think Blizzard needs 'even more money' to spend on WoW things for? For an MMO that took 50 million? in development money, but yet has raked in over a billion annually... have you seen quality or quantity of game that reflects 100 million times what the initial launch offered? No, I think not. Matter of fact, we see the opposite: changing double-a-month sub for a horse that cost a day's labor in wages.

As previously stated: the conclusion stands.

Originally posted by heerobya

 Difference is, the mounts are the cheap part of getting a new level of ground/flying mount speed. It's the training that is the large cost.

Cheap, yes, but not free.

So spending 25$ real life money only saves you maybe 150? gold maximum in game.

Per character. That mount is bind to account, so all of your characters can use it. Even ones you have not yet rolled.

You can make that in a single day of running dailies or doing quests. Or farming.

With a high level main, yup. IF you have one. IF you are just starting out in the game, that mount will save you a lot of time farming gold.

Point is it's not that big of a gain in-game. Now if they sold the epic flying training costs online for 25$ real world cash that would be thousands and thousands of gold, and they'd never do that.

Do you know how many times people have said Blizzard "would never do that?" Faction transfers, for example.

You can get a free epic flying mount by not sucking in a heroic culling of stratholme run. \

The horsie is purley asethetic.

Using your own numbers, if I roll five alts - that horse will save me 750g. That is nothing like "purely aesthetic".

And I do agree that the more money they make off of crap like this, the more they'll have to invest in server stability, new expansion content, etc. So 1-2 days time to reskin another mount to get millions in profit used to make entirely new expansions, not to mention help fund the creation of Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and the next Blizzard MMO?

Why should WoW players care about funding other games?

I think that's pretty win and a really smart move on their part.

Oh, it's smart, alright.

And no, I didn't buy one. Why not? I don't measure my e-peen by the creature between my legs... lawl

Nor do I, but many do.

Originally posted by Maliv

On top of this, I'm not selling the property that isn't mine to begin with...I'm selling the time and effort (my labor) it took to progress Blizzard's pixels to where they are today  

 

:P

Yes. That is the basis that the supposed 'ownership' of the account will likely be challenged. Without the many, many hours the player has put into that account, it would be worth no more than a beginning account. That is tremendous value added - by the player, not Blizzard.

As I have said before - when the lawyers realize how much money is involved in MMOs, they will try to get their hooks in.