So, applying this to WoW.
.
You'd start at 80, never worry about xps. You have the best equipment in the game so you'd never worry about gearing up.
.
I'd still hang out in my guild. What would we do? Why raid? Why harvest mats?

I would think it would have to be situational, OP.

If the gameplay is interesting and unique in every battle, then yes.  If it is like most current MMO's where auto-attack and pressing a few hotkeys determines a battle outcome, then no.  I would say only twitch- and tactics-based games would work in this scenario.

Originally posted by uquipu

So, applying this to WoW.
.
You'd start at 80, never worry about xps. You have the best equipment in the game so you'd never worry about gearing up.
.
I'd still hang out in my guild. What would we do? Why raid? Why harvest mats?

 The idea (I think) is that you would raid because it would be fun and content would be implemented faster, rather than being reward based and having other things todo, meaning content is developed at a slower pace.

Progression is actually near the bottom of my list when it comes to things I really enjoy in an MMORPG. In my opinion progression has a tendancy to break the community up (read gear gap), which is never a good thing in an online RPG. I think a lot of this comes from the fact that a good majority of modern gamers are reward oriented, meaning they play to accomplish or acquire something rather to just play round, meet people, and have fun. It is possible to do both I suppose, but the priorities are obvious.

id love to play an mmo without "character" (power) progression but i wouldnt want it to be too much gear progression either and i dont want the game to be just raiding either

i still want progression but i would like the progression to be aesthetic so that the more (combat) stuff you do the more visual customisation options you get

i guess apb fits that description but apb (afaik) gives you access to more powerful weapons when you progress so its still power progression

I certainly like character customization much more than progression.  I like being able to choose what my character looks like and does but I don't like having to use some arbitrary XP or skill system to do it.  I also don't like having to chase down the best gear.

I am not very reward driven, I am driven more by experiences, if there are interesting things ahead then I will keep playing, promises of levels, armor and candy no thanks.

That is what bothers me about most MMO players, the concept of doing something just for fun eludes them, if there is no reward then why bother doing it?

I mean I like unlockables too, but I don't want the game to be about collecting stuff.  If you gave me character customization, a good combat system and lots of potential for great battles and adventures then I would play it.  I am easy to please really.

I would play a game without character progression if it had a great crafting engine (which by the way wouldnt require skill progression to be fantastic).

As a RPG player who has been around character progression for more than 20 years I will say it instinct is to say no but if you think about it creatively and listen to ideas some people have around this subject its very much a good idea.

Leveling your character is a way to learn your class. If everyone started at max level and could instantly jump in the raids, what's to stop people from making characters they have NO idea how to play and fuck everyone over? Max level is an accomplishment; if you want to play a different character, you start from the beginning.

thats just the problem with todays games, its either one or the other, and most of the games that have charecter progression grant us the most linear form of charecter progression you can possibly have, smack monsters to gain exp to reach lvl 2 then repeat untill lvl max level. at max lvl the players are then left to raid for the best items..

its all alittle ruished and not very well thoughtout to be honest.

now if they was to prioritise player charecter progression and give the players control over their charecters so they they can define what kind of charecter they create. i.e.   remove the class chioce system fro mmo's why force players to select a class which will have skills that can make him heal and support other chareters or a tank class which makes it so he can ake more dmg... instead why not have a free form player charecter classing system. make it so players gain exp but that experience has to be speant training up a class tree of skills..

the players would have to choose carefully between a huge array of skills and attributes to get the most from their charecters.

for instance the charecter would have the follow base stats as all mmorpg's have -

str

sta

agil

wis

int

cha

the playter would have to spend points in these areas based of the kind of role he/she would fullfill in the game, obviously trying to max out all these would leave no exp left for the allimportant skills re quired to cast spells or use blocking abilities and aoe attacks from all the run of the mill classes you expect to see in these games..

instead of predetermining the growth direction of a pre-selected class. it could instead be put into the players hands to develop their very own unique charecter that isnt restricted by level cap.  this alone would make charecter creation something enjoybale.. have a charecter customisation and growth system like this with a very complex and indepth crafting system and you could have a very time consumeing thrillinh and enjoyable game. and still have your raids and item drops too..

you could have it where useing a sword, would level up your skill with that type of weapon unlocking more sword related skills as you progress. apply the same concpet to all weapon types with their own unique skill sets and you have something vast and none linear, then chuck crafting into the mix with its ery crafting related attributes and a player run economy and you now have a game fit for all types of players.

if there is one thing i hate to do, thats logging in slecting a charecter  such as a tank and then only being able to be a tank for the entire duration of that classes growth. i would like to be able to multi spec him into other areas.  such tank healer caster obviously multi speccing means he wouldnt be as good as some one thats specced purely as a tank but his role on the battlefield isnt determined by his class but more of what hes able to do. and how usefull he is and   the players skill level not the charecters ability.

cause lets face it, any muppet can tank or heal. their is no skill behind clicking on a heal skill. its not hard.as a tank you stand their and take all the agro while a healer keeps you alive. boreing dull unimaginitive and well it gets really old really fast..  let the player choose and change their path as they play.. take a leaf out of eve onlines book with player skills. obviously we dont want those skills to train over time because thats eve's problem. thats eve's only problem time related progression which dictats for you to reach a certain stage in the game you have to spend x amount of dollars.

all you need is monthly sub and a skill system like eve-online that is progressed through spending experience points on the skills rather than waiting for the time to count out before you can level that skill or ability.

chuck in a really deep important crafting system, and add raids that are only beneficial to guilds and alliances. such as resource rewards or something to put towards that all important guild fortress upgrade or to allow your guilds crafters to produce the best armours in the game for your guild warriors. raids shouldnt give you best loot drops or weapon    drops. it takes something away from the game play and limits the game purely to end game content.  thats never a good thing, all that does is tell new players that the game is rubbish untill your max level and at the end game raids..

im not surprised these games dont last long..

so get rid of the player levels let the players class their own charecters how they want to skill them up and clas them up

and take away loot from raids and make them more worthwhile to all players rather than just the elite pve raid runner types.. raids are boreing and once you have the items that they drop you are less inclined to do them again. someppeople will help their friends to get the geer,. but most of us just dont play them again.

i know for a fact once ive aquired all raid items i dont play the raids again. reason for this is because i usualy have to run the raid 30-40 times in pug groups and every one roles need on the items you want. some peopel are running raids a second time for their alt charecters. so people farm raids for end game items for alt charecters or to sell at rediculous prices on the ah.  its really a bad game mechanic. and it doesnt entertain for long enough.

no single developer has tried to use all types in one.. i think it would be great.

I have to admit I did skim the OP's post, bad Scot. :)

I can't see this working, leveling is 90% of what we do in a MMO, you need more than the 10% left to make a new game. Also your MMO model is moving away from progression and attainment to end games. Guild Wars has a 'skip the leveling and jump straight in' model, anyone know how well that works?

long term enjoyment in a game depends on one major thing - having things to do, things that give you a feel of progression.

now what can that be?

more levels   ______ more content------> alot more, not feasable (money)

                      I______ harder leveling---> grind

                      I______ raid

or

community   I--------- sandbox -----> you need to have proper tools,

 based                                                   player driven economy, crafting, housing etc

features       I---------- pvp------------> has to be balanced, fun, meaningful

                                                                 (note. pvp lot are the least forgiving folks out there)

more levels are about character progression and attach you to your character, the other is about your progression and attaches you to the server, community; the former is more forgiving if you fail at first you can add things to bring back people you lost, latter not so much, hit-or-miss.

i would play a mmo without character progression, but it has to have some kind of progression.

---

Originally posted by Jenuviel
I'm actually on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I'd happily play a game with 500 levels and unlimited remorts (the ability to start over at level 1 with perks gained from the previous incarnations) and no raiding or pvp whatsoever. For me, that forward momentum is my primary source of enjoyment. I'm all about character growth, but not particularly about "stuff accumulation." If it had grouping all the way similar to the grouping in CoH, I'd group all the way. If it didn't, I'd solo all the way. Either way, I'd be happy.
 
I sit at a desk typing in patient information all day, every day, and I typically feel like very little (if any) progress has been made. When I get home, it's a relief to sit down, spend a couple of hours, and walk away with that sense of "getting somewhere" that levels give me. Sure, they're meaningless in the big picutre, but that part of me that needs to be putting one foot in front of the other gets temporarily sated by it.
 
...

---

What?!? Did you say "remorts"? I haven't heard that term used since MUD's. That's probably the one thing I miss the most were things like remorts. In my MUD, remorting meant starting over from max level back down to level 1 as a slightly more powerful being (there were 3 tiers down each path) and picking a new class, choosing a couple of skills from your previous class to carry over into your "new life".

Oh those were the days, I feel ya on what you're saying. People back then just leveled because that was what was fun. And we hang out and help each other level some more. The gods of the MUD (like the developers), would sign on and host events like DM-styled quests and Bloodbath Arenas where people fought each other in a labrynth style area and duked it all in free for all fashion. People would place their bets to try and win money on the champion of the whole thing. I would bet on myself when I was at my prime, was funny because I was an 11 year old taking on grown people ;) I miss those days (/nostalgia off)

Yes, yes and yes!  One of the reasons I like Guild Wars!

Originally posted by Garvon3

I'd basically be an FPS then, and even some FPS games have character progression. 

If this was released I don't think devs would go for it, cause you can't charge a monthly fee really, people would play in shorter bursts, like rounds of Counterstrike. How does WW2 Online work?

In answer to your question in WW2 Online there is no real character progression and not much in the way of gear progression in the way most MMO'ers think of it.

Your character does go up in "ranks" for completing objectives but they don't really effect much. There are a couple of weapon unlocks that are tied to rank...you get them fairly quickly but that's about it.

On the other hand there is a form of progression in terms of how well your side (axis or allies) is doing during the campaign. The game basicaly revolves around rounds which are called "Campaigns". Each lasts a few real life weeks. During the course of the campaign your side will gain or loose territory as well as suffer losses through attrition in combat.  So there is a whole meta-game aspect to the campaign. I'm actualy not fully clear on all the details of how that works....but the territory you hold effects you rate of resupply (Essentialy how quickly you replenish Kits/equipment for your sides soldiers after they ge killed) as well as things like researching more advanced weapons for your side to use during the campaign...which start showing up during the campaign. Once a campaign is over, everything resets back to it's start point for the next campaign.

Honestly I like the setup alot. Even though there is no individual character progression, the sense of accomplishment that you get from doing things that advance your sides position in the campaign is actualy far greater then anything I've experienced in any other MMO. You're actualy changing the game-world, the campaign, the "story-arc" and your own sides fate due to your characters own individual actions. I think part of the reasons why it works well in this particular context is that they picked the right scale in terms of time and distance. The map IS truely a grand scale.... think 100's of KM's literaly. Your could probably fit the entire campaign map of WOW in there a 1000 times over. That means that your not just fighting the same battle over and over and over again over a little patch of territory like you are in many PvP based MMO's. The other thing is that the scale of weeks for each campaign, makes it seem like there is a real solid sense of progress and flow to the campaign. It's slow enough that there isn't that sense of rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat that you get say from playing Battlefield games. Yet there is also a definitive start and a defnitive end....so that if one side is getting beat up badly during a campaign...you know that a few weeks down the line you'll get a fresh start.

Anyway that's what I like about it....I'm sure like most games if you play it hardcore for a few years without breaks it is going to start to get old.... but really. You can't ask any more from a game then that.

Originally posted by Garvon3
Also, when did end game begin to mean raiding? Have MMOs really fallen that far that people think thats all people should do at end game?

What do you do at end game?

Originally posted by jusomdude

It seems many people are all about end game raiding these days.

So would you play a MMO that was all about raiding, and gear progression with no character progression?

 

You could still customize your character with talent trees or something.

If there was a game like this, I think there would be a ton more raid content than current games, since developers wouldn't have to make content for leveling.

 

Personally, I don't know if I'd play a game like this, because I like advancing my character through levels and abilities more than just getting new shiny pieces of gear. And I don't like raiding that much.

There is, it's called SecondLife lol but no raiding... yet. There is good combat though, mainly PvP but some MOB's, and some skills too. Gear progression is what you buy or make. But 1.5 million people play every month currently, so your OP seems to be a yes. Of course not all 1.5m play it as an mmorpg/fps.

Definitely, I hate the same-ol, same-ol cookie-cutter level/class based games. Evolve already damnit! An end to the mindless end-game bs rush to.

Being an MMO it'll likely lack many features that make progression-less gameplay worthwhile.

I'd play any MMO with a dynamic world, good PvP, and deep character customization. Leveling is pointless IMO.

No Chance