Originally posted by Khalathwyr

If your sign up date is true and you haven't been here until just recently there are many people on this site who would like to see some of the older features/mechanics from the "old games" get an update and make a comeback. Topics like this get started all the time here. Be warned there are a few very vocal people who will most likely jump in this thread and basically tell you those traits will never be in a game again, that you need to "get over it", and take other very, very thinly veiled shots at you for even suggesting it. They basically love the current crop and don't there to be any other choice of gameplay is what I've come to believe. Oh, they'll try to tell you about "numbers" and "what makes a success and what is "niche" and what is not" but they have no more hard factual data than anyone else (including us that say there is a market).

So, just ignore them and keep on being vocal about an appreciation for that type of play. Afterall, according to the aformentioned people only me and like 10 other people on this board were the only ones who liked those games, flaws and all. If you are truly new to the site, well, one less straw in their theory, lol.

 No there isnt anyway to know about a present full feature MMO sandbox....but those of ya that keep spouting on about games like SWG sure indeed were the niche before WOW.

The biggest sandbox to date is EVE with ~350k....and it still doesnt top EQ1 sub numbers from 04 era which stood at 450k.

You guys belong to the virtual reality/sims clubs of America....which wasnt popular among us longtime video-gamers back then. Well before MMOs went mainstream, bringing in a mulititude of newer gamers which joined in the WOW phase.

I am with ya guys when you wanna bring back more open world stuff. The second it starts getting into the alternate reality/virtual economic simulaters you guys lose support. Instead of accepting the lack of appeal to others, and supporting the games that do cater to your style.....you guys hang out here whining daily.

As I have said before....that is a nerd's nerd style of gaming. It just doesnt belong in a AAA title if Devs are looking to attract the masses. It boils down to ROLE play vs ROLL play. As sub numbers have shown thru the yrs, the far majority are interested in ROLL play. Which was true even before WoW launched.

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

 No there isnt anyway to know about a present full feature MMO sandbox....but those of ya that keep spouting on about games like SWG sure indeed were the niche before WOW.

 

The biggest sandbox to date is EVE with ~350k....and it still doesnt top EQ1 sub numbers from 04 era which stood at 450k.

 

You guys belong to the virtual reality/sims clubs of America....which wasnt popular among us longtime video-gamers back then. Well before MMOs went mainstream, bringing in a mulititude of newer gamers which joined in the WOW phase.

 

That's right it was a niche, where were these "longtime video-gamers" when many of us were playing MUD's before we developed them into what is now called old school mmorpg's? Most of the pioneers of the old school mmorpg's were mud developers, and old school mmorpg's reflected that.

See, I don't care about WoW, I played it for a bit and it's not the experience the niche has been playing for years. If people want to play WoW, that's fine, but when they go to all the other game sites and say we want this and we want that and the devs listen to them because of their numbers, well it destroys that niche, especially in the end when they wind up not playing those games and they are left for ghost towns.

Originally posted by Daywolf

Boat travel was awesome in EQ, a lot of people were upset when they quit running. Even WoW has some slow travel... like with the subway (though that no one there uses as it's pointless). It was great in EQ when you had to take an actual journey to get to another place, made the game world feel more cohesive, sometimes even challenging so you traveled in a group. There were faster modes of travel though, like the spires or Drui's, good if you had to go far or recover a corpse. SWG had slow travel too, a lot of people would meet up at the starport. I think an old school game today needs it, it builds community.

I loved the Butcher Block to Freeport boat trip too the first time I did it.  I do not recall anyone saying in game that they enjoyed repeating the boat trip experience multiple times.  On top of the 20 minute boat trip, you also had to add up to a 30 minute wait before the next boat departed.

Originally posted by Daywolf

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

 No there isnt anyway to know about a present full feature MMO sandbox....but those of ya that keep spouting on about games like SWG sure indeed were the niche before WOW.

 

The biggest sandbox to date is EVE with ~350k....and it still doesnt top EQ1 sub numbers from 04 era which stood at 450k.

 

You guys belong to the virtual reality/sims clubs of America....which wasnt popular among us longtime video-gamers back then. Well before MMOs went mainstream, bringing in a mulititude of newer gamers which joined in the WOW phase.

 

That's right it was a niche, where were these "longtime video-gamers" when many of us were playing MUD's before we developed them into what is now called old school mmorpg's? Most of the pioneers of the old school mmorpg's were mud developers, and old school mmorpg's reflected that.

See, I don't care about WoW, I played it for a bit and it's not the experience the niche has been playing for years. If people want to play WoW, that's fine, but when they go to all the other game sites and say we want this and we want that and the devs listen to them because of their numbers, well it destroys that niche, especially in the end when they wind up not playing those games and they are left for ghost towns.

Well, you can't really blame developers to listen to their customers. Niches are being destroyed everyday in the business world. Corner independent bookstore is giving way to B&N, Borders & Amazon. There is no going back. Ditto for MMORPGs.

If you don't want to move forward with the genre, be left behind and play niche games.

Plus, "they" have as much right to go to game sites and state what THEY want as you.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, you can't really blame developers to listen to their customers.

Who's customers? Maybe you missed what I wrote...

Originally posted by thorwood

 

I loved the Butcher Block to Freeport boat trip too the first time I did it.  I do not recall anyone saying in game that they enjoyed repeating the boat trip experience multiple times.  On top of the 20 minute boat trip, you also had to add up to a 30 minute wait before the next boat departed.

A lot of people use to dive off of the boat. The zones had lots of population. After the boats stopped, that dried up, was much harder to get to.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Daywolf

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

 No there isnt anyway to know about a present full feature MMO sandbox....but those of ya that keep spouting on about games like SWG sure indeed were the niche before WOW.

 

The biggest sandbox to date is EVE with ~350k....and it still doesnt top EQ1 sub numbers from 04 era which stood at 450k.

 

You guys belong to the virtual reality/sims clubs of America....which wasnt popular among us longtime video-gamers back then. Well before MMOs went mainstream, bringing in a mulititude of newer gamers which joined in the WOW phase.

 

That's right it was a niche, where were these "longtime video-gamers" when many of us were playing MUD's before we developed them into what is now called old school mmorpg's? Most of the pioneers of the old school mmorpg's were mud developers, and old school mmorpg's reflected that.

See, I don't care about WoW, I played it for a bit and it's not the experience the niche has been playing for years. If people want to play WoW, that's fine, but when they go to all the other game sites and say we want this and we want that and the devs listen to them because of their numbers, well it destroys that niche, especially in the end when they wind up not playing those games and they are left for ghost towns.

 

Well, you can't really blame developers to listen to their customers. Niches are being destroyed everyday in the business world. Corner independent bookstore is giving way to B&N, Borders & Amazon. There is no going back. Ditto for MMORPGs.

If you don't want to move forward with the genre, be left behind and play niche games.

Plus, "they" have as much right to go to game sites and state what THEY want as you.

Which is cool. It's just more often than not the "THEY" you refer to get down right beligerent with the "they" that I guess you'd put me into for even mentioning some of the things I'd like. Outright attack mode. Evidence here on these forums and on the TOR forums if it is required. Rarely do I see those coming from my side of the table (not all of whom I agree with on every little feature) launch a nuclear verbal attack on another for liking a certain style of gameplay. I can count, for certain, 3-4 individuals in this thread who have and if they had addressed me in the real world, face to face, in this manner they'd be on their way to a hospital (or worse) and I'd be on my way to county or federal.

I still just don't see why it's so terrible to have AAA versions that appeal to both sides. Currently AAA means around 300K to 500K subscriptions. A goal which both types can achieve.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Which is cool. It's just more often than not the "THEY" you refer to get down right beligerent with the "they" that I guess you'd put me into for even mentioning some of the things I'd like. Outright attack mode. Evidence here on these forums and on the TOR forums if it is required. Rarely do I see those coming from my side of the table (not all of whom I agree with on every little feature) launch a nuclear verbal attack on another for liking a certain style of gameplay. I can count, for certain, 3-4 individuals in this thread who have and if they had addressed me in the real world, face to face, in this manner they'd be on their way to a hospital (or worse) and I'd be on my way to county or federal.

I still just don't see why it's so terrible to have AAA versions that appeal to both sides. Currently AAA means around 300K to 500K subscriptions. A goal which both types can achieve.

  What is it in what we are saying that erupts such vileness and a need to belittle our 'wants' and hopes. Sure there are alot of WoW bashers and haters, they aren't necessarily those of us wishing for a more 'retro' view of mmos.

Things invariably change, and gaming will too. Where it goes only time will reveal, but where's the harm for us in wanting something different than what is presently available?

Well I don’t nuke WoW players. I give them a hard time sometimes, but in a challenging way to bring out deeper discussions. They can have their game, I’m not in hopes of it failing. The only true gripe I have with a deal of many WoW players is that they have an army of people that go to game development forums and demand WoW type features, get their wish and then stick with WoW leaving those actual game communities in shambles. It’s all they will ever really play imo, until Blizzard releases something else at least.  Maybe I explained it more directly that time?

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

I still just don't see why it's so terrible to have AAA versions that appeal to both sides. Currently AAA means around 300K to 500K subscriptions. A goal which both types can achieve.

Well put. There is plenty of room in the MMORPG genre for quality. A 'common denominator' can be anything so long as it draws a crowd. No need to set the common denom where the crowd is presently convened. More selection means better gameplay in the end, and isn't that a rallying cry everyone can subscribe to?

Originally posted by pojung

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I still just don't see why it's so terrible to have AAA versions that appeal to both sides. Currently AAA means around 300K to 500K subscriptions. A goal which both types can achieve.

Well put. There is plenty of room in the MMORPG genre for quality. A 'common denominator' can be anything so long as it draws a crowd. No need to set the common denom where the crowd is presently convened. More selection means better gameplay in the end, and isn't that a rallying cry everyone can subscribe to?

Agreed even if the actual number of subs and the quality of the game isn't perfectly linked.

But make a fun game and you will get enough subs to run the game and a little extra too (unless you do a Vanguard and release in such horrible shape that few people ever touch it after it but that is another story).

I think there is room for a few different kinds of MMOs and there is the possibility to mix newer and older styles and adding very different things to the mix.

There are many different ways to handle the mechanics of a MMO instead of the old systems that EQ and UO used. I loved to see a version of Runequest or a game that uses the rules from GWs old Warhammer fantasy RPG. Palladiums mix of levels and skills would also make a somewhat different experience.

You could also make a MMO without XP with only gear and achivements (to gain access and stuff), the possibilities are limitless but most people only see the regular system or in some cases that plus UOs system.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And those people will be right. There is a reason why old schools is OLD.

If you want some game with "featuers" like long down-time and take-a-number and camp for hours ... don't get your hopes up. They won't be back.

Oh, and then OP you have posts like this that assume they know what features you're talking about and cherry pick the negative ones and try to use them as "arguing points". They must have their way rule with an iron fist and anyone else be damned. There is noone elese's way but their way and everyone else needs to hush.

But these are the features that keep being brought up by the pro-old-school camp!  They specifically want the long down-time because it "forces people to socialize"!  They want the camping because they don't want instances!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to the old-schoolers describing exactly what they do want!

The old school exists,play Daoc,EQ or Ultima. Its time for the new games to step up like GW2,SW:TOR,RIFT and those games.

Originally posted by SweetZoid

The old school exists,play Daoc,EQ or Ultima. Its time for the new games to step up like GW2,SW:TOR,RIFT and those games.

Oh no, those games aren't exactly the same as they were back in the mythical "good old days"!  They've changed!  Yeah, the only reason they still exist at all today is because they changed, otherwise they'd be long dead and gone because there is no audience for old school games that could keep them afloat in the current market.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by SweetZoid

The old school exists,play Daoc,EQ or Ultima. Its time for the new games to step up like GW2,SW:TOR,RIFT and those games.

Oh no, those games aren't exactly the same as they were back in the mythical "good old days"!  They've changed!  Yeah, the only reason they still exist at all today is because they changed, otherwise they'd be long dead and gone because there is no audience for old school games that could keep them afloat in the current market.

No, the only reason they exist today is the hardcore fanboys that have been playing the game for a decade and won't quit until they take the servers down. It doesn't take many people to keep an MMO online, and these games aren't pulling new players.

Originally posted by nfefx

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by SweetZoid

The old school exists,play Daoc,EQ or Ultima. Its time for the new games to step up like GW2,SW:TOR,RIFT and those games.

Oh no, those games aren't exactly the same as they were back in the mythical "good old days"!  They've changed!  Yeah, the only reason they still exist at all today is because they changed, otherwise they'd be long dead and gone because there is no audience for old school games that could keep them afloat in the current market.

No, the only reason they exist today is the hardcore fanboys that have been playing the game for a decade and won't quit until they take the servers down. It doesn't take many people to keep an MMO online, and these games aren't pulling new players.

Yep, they are not that expensive anylonger to keep running. I've played many of these games when the changes happened, and watched each one turn into a ghost town as a result, or close enough to it. It's a no brainer.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And those people will be right. There is a reason why old schools is OLD.

If you want some game with "featuers" like long down-time and take-a-number and camp for hours ... don't get your hopes up. They won't be back.

Oh, and then OP you have posts like this that assume they know what features you're talking about and cherry pick the negative ones and try to use them as "arguing points". They must have their way rule with an iron fist and anyone else be damned. There is noone elese's way but their way and everyone else needs to hush.

But these are the features that keep being brought up by the pro-old-school camp!  They specifically want the long down-time because it "forces people to socialize"!  They want the camping because they don't want instances!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to the old-schoolers describing exactly what they do want!

Even for those in which your comment is true am I to sit here and to believe that the possibility totally escapes your mind that an inherent "but adjusted" variable is also in play here? Or do they have to specifiy it to you with each feature they mention? Sure, I think I could be on board with ditching instances and going back to camping mobs? I also think that each mob should be evaluated as to whether it is a high traffic quest mob or a rare item quest mob, and that the game should look at how many people are in the area with that quest and adjust up or down the spawn times.

I doubt that anyone really wants to wait 30 minutes on a a boat, for example. That said, I see nothing wrong with a 5 or 10 minutes wait. If anything it'll give those with ADD who cower at that little bit of time a chance to go to the bathroom, get a drink/smoke or go check on their kids/check facebook/make pub plans (for those who complain that they don't want downtime because they "have a life").

That's the problem (as I see it and I'm certainly not suggesting you you see it). Those older systems haven't seen subsequent iterations. They instead were dumped sum total for something totally else and the people that loved them but knew they could do with a little tweaking here or there were left hanging in the wind. And those aren't the only features that get brought up. As I said before, those are just the ones some folks keep focusing on because of the possible shock value they can get out of them in a counter argument. Especially when they don't even acknowledge that time variable of those, which seems to be causing all the fuss, can be pared down a little to not be as extreme as before but not be so insignificant.

And ultimately, I haven't seen one single person who likes the old school style demanding that all future games be made in that manner such that everyone has to play those type games. They're just looking for one modern made game to capture those things made by a company who has the money to even be in this business in the first place.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by SweetZoid

The old school exists,play Daoc,EQ or Ultima. Its time for the new games to step up like GW2,SW:TOR,RIFT and those games.

Oh no, those games aren't exactly the same as they were back in the mythical "good old days"!  They've changed!  Yeah, the only reason they still exist at all today is because they changed, otherwise they'd be long dead and gone because there is no audience for old school games that could keep them afloat in the current market.

Listen kid, you keep spamming this everywhere, but go look up some MMO charts.

Games like DAoC weren't losing numbers and then changed to survive. 

They changed, and then started losing numbers in large chunks. 

Theres 3 solid reasons that DAoC is almost dead right now, and its nothing to do with it being outdated and "not fun". So until you play those games, please stop spreading your lies around.

1. /level 20 for all accounts with a level 50, killed the incoming noob population because there was no vets to group with/show people the ropes.

2. Trials of Atlantis expansion made the game all about grinding for PvE loot in order to compete in PvP. Changed the entire philosophy of the game and people didn't like that. They left by the hundred thousands. 

3. EA bought Mythic and put them to work on Warhammer, so no further expansions/work was being done on DAoC. 

And now you know, so stop posting your slander.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And those people will be right. There is a reason why old schools is OLD.

If you want some game with "featuers" like long down-time and take-a-number and camp for hours ... don't get your hopes up. They won't be back.

Oh, and then OP you have posts like this that assume they know what features you're talking about and cherry pick the negative ones and try to use them as "arguing points". They must have their way rule with an iron fist and anyone else be damned. There is noone elese's way but their way and everyone else needs to hush.

But these are the features that keep being brought up by the pro-old-school camp!  They specifically want the long down-time because it "forces people to socialize"!  They want the camping because they don't want instances!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to the old-schoolers describing exactly what they do want!

We didn't say LONG downtime, ANY downtime, or  any social dynamics at all, gives people a chance to socialize. When the fastest way to level or do anything is to solo, theres no social aspect to a game. 

And having no instances does not mean there will be camping. Only if your game is a simple one trick pony like WoW, where the only point is to get gear, would there be spawn camping. 

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And those people will be right. There is a reason why old schools is OLD.

If you want some game with "featuers" like long down-time and take-a-number and camp for hours ... don't get your hopes up. They won't be back.

Oh, and then OP you have posts like this that assume they know what features you're talking about and cherry pick the negative ones and try to use them as "arguing points". They must have their way rule with an iron fist and anyone else be damned. There is noone elese's way but their way and everyone else needs to hush.

But these are the features that keep being brought up by the pro-old-school camp!  They specifically want the long down-time because it "forces people to socialize"!  They want the camping because they don't want instances!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to the old-schoolers describing exactly what they do want!

Even for those in which your comment is true am I to sit here and to believe that the possibility totally escapes your mind that an inherent "but adjusted" variable is also in play here? Or do they have to specifiy it to you with each feature they mention? Sure, I think I could be on board with ditching instances and going back to camping mobs? I also think that each mob should be evaluated as to whether it is a high traffic quest mob or a rare item quest mob, and that the game should look at how many people are in the area with that quest and adjust up or down the spawn times.

 

I doubt that anyone really wants to wait 30 minutes on a a boat, for example. That said, I see nothing wrong with a 5 or 10 minutes wait. If anything it'll give those with ADD who cower at that little bit of time a chance to go to the bathroom, get a drink/smoke or go check on their kids/check facebook/make pub plans (for those who complain that they don't want downtime because they "have a life").

 

That's the problem (as I see it and I'm certainly not suggesting you you see it). Those older systems haven't seen subsequent iterations. They instead were dumped sum total for something totally else and the people that loved them but knew they could do with a little tweaking here or there were left hanging in the wind. And those aren't the only features that get brought up. As I said before, those are just the ones some folks keep focusing on because of the possible shock value they can get out of them in a counter argument. Especially when they don't even acknowledge that time variable of those, which seems to be causing all the fuss, can be pared down a little to not be as extreme as before but not be so insignificant.

 

And ultimately, I haven't seen one single person who likes the old school style demanding that all future games be made in that manner such that everyone has to play those type games. They're just looking for one modern made game to capture those things made by a company who has the money to even be in this business in the first place.

Exactly! I would also like to add I miss having alot of factions that mean something in MMOs. In Everquest there were many towns and not every race/class was liked everywhere. I also like the distinct towns for each race. The world felt alive and different where ever you went. There was freedoms I miss, such as being able to give items to NPCs and they would equip it, cast beneficial spells on NPCs, attack any NPC you wanted, drop things on the ground. I like the realisms removed, weight of stuff mattered, you had to keep food and drink. I miss the codependency and differences of each class, you needed druids or wizards to travel quickly around the world, melee needed casters to bind, classes had very unique buffs and abilities that formed a well oiled group. Now days, to make sure everything is equal classes are blan and all feel the same. They really have very little to offer each other than what they already have.

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

But these are the features that keep being brought up by the pro-old-school camp!  They specifically want the long down-time because it "forces people to socialize"!  They want the camping because they don't want instances!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to the old-schoolers describing exactly what they do want!

Lets just pretend for a moment, just pretend, those are the two main issues that the old-school-players want in their game. If they want them, how come you say “no one wants them”? Are they no one?

Ok, lits fix that:

But these are the features that keep being brought up by no one!  No one specifically wants the long down-time because it "forces no one to socialize"!  No one wants the camping because everyone and their dog wants instances in every single game, trust me!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to no one describing exactly what no one wants!

Isn’t it a great world where everyone and all games are the same?!

(it's what they teach in public schools these days)