I think what people miss are the virtual world mmorpg's. They didn't feel so tamed. A majority of mmo's released over the past 5 or 6 years are more action adventure than rpg.

In super mario brothers on the nes I ran to the right. It was an action adventure. In the legend of zelda I ran in almost any direction, it was a rpg.

Originally posted by Psythos

I think what people miss are the virtual world mmorpg's. They didn't feel so tamed. A majority of mmo's released over the past 5 or 6 years are more action adventure than rpg.

In super mario brothers on the nes I ran to the right. It was an action adventure. In the legend of zelda I ran in almost any direction, it was a rpg.

In both, you still had a single ultimate goal, you just had a little more latitude in Zelda how you got there and how long it took you.  Don't fool yourself, you're still doing the same thing, the puppetmaster has just given you a little more slack on the strings.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Josher

Research still can't produce a good game if the developers aren't talented enough and/or can't make it fun.   

"Good" is entirely subjective.  What one person considers good, another person will hate.  What really matters in the realm of MMOs, whether you like it or not, is profitability.  Studios are only going to make games they think they can make a profit off of.  No profit = no game.  The reality is, if you fall into a tiny little minority, then nobody is going to make a game catering to you because they'll go out of business.

That's life.  The sooner everyone deals with it, the easier life will be.

Hell. No.

My enjoyment will not revolve around conformity. Nor should anyone else's. The more product we demand with our money, the better products will become. I want quality, which some might argue as being subjective. I will hold accountable any studio that recieves my money.

Will I get 100% of what I want? No. But I will be vocal about the 10% it missed. If everyone did this, dev's couldn't get away with 'cut corners' and quality of product, subjective or not, would objectively improve.

Originally posted by pojung

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Josher

Research still can't produce a good game if the developers aren't talented enough and/or can't make it fun.   

"Good" is entirely subjective.  What one person considers good, another person will hate.  What really matters in the realm of MMOs, whether you like it or not, is profitability.  Studios are only going to make games they think they can make a profit off of.  No profit = no game.  The reality is, if you fall into a tiny little minority, then nobody is going to make a game catering to you because they'll go out of business.

That's life.  The sooner everyone deals with it, the easier life will be.

Hell. No.

My enjoyment will not revolve around conformity. Nor should anyone else's. The more product we demand with our money, the better products will become. I want quality, which some might argue as being subjective. I will hold accountable any studio that recieves my money.

Will I get 100% of what I want? No. But I will be vocal about the 10% it missed. If everyone did this, dev's couldn't get away with 'cut corners' and quality of product, subjective or not, would objectively improve.

While I agree with you on an individual basis, in reality it doesn't really work.  They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but in the business world, it's the squeaky wheel with the big checkbook that makes the difference.  That doesn't mean that you ought to pay for things that you don't want to, it means that you need to recognize that just because you, as an individual want something, that doesn't obligate anyone to give it to you.  You look at what's available and put down your money on the table where you think it's warranted.  If it's not warranted anywhere, take your money elsewhere.

The fact is, it's likely that the current state of MMOs matches the desires of the majority of players.  It's only a very tiny minority, no matter how vocal, that doesn't like the way things are going.  These forums are no indication of the general view of the MMO marketplace.  Games exist the way they are because people are willing to play them the way they are.  The fact that you, or I, are unhappy with them doesn't mean a thing because we and those who share our opinions are a minuscule financial loss to the developers.  They don't care what we think because we don't make them enough money to be a blip on their radar.

But unlike lots of people who spend their time here bitching about how much they hate everything about MMOs and still pay one or more monthly fees to keep playing games they're adamant they hate, at least I don't pay for anything.  They haven't earned my dime, therefore they don't get my dime.  If they want my money, they have to earn it and so far, no game on the market, nor any game announced in the future, looks like it will be doing that.

So I just don't play MMOs.  Easy-peasy.

[quote]Originally posted by Cephus404
[b][quote]The fact is, it's likely that the current state of MMOs matches the desires of the majority of players.  It's only a very tiny minority, no matter how vocal, that doesn't like the way things are going.
[/b][/quote]

I got to agree with this part.
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Big companies would have marketing panels and professional marketers who's sole job is to find out what their market wants.
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I'll go with that idea rather than they code blindly, just hoping for a hit.

Originally posted by uquipu

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Big companies would have marketing panels and professional marketers who's sole job is to find out what their market wants.
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I'll go with that idea rather than they code blindly, just hoping for a hit.

Precisely.  I think there are people around here who think, just because they want something, everyone else ought to want it too.  They vastly over-estimate the market for their particular niche interests and then they don't consider that these companies have to make money to stay in business, so catering to every tiny niche audience with their own personal game simply isn't going to happen.

Then again, I think there's a huge number of people out there who are convinced that just because they want something, someone owes it to them.

These people are in for a big surprise in the real world.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by uquipu

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Big companies would have marketing panels and professional marketers who's sole job is to find out what their market wants.
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I'll go with that idea rather than they code blindly, just hoping for a hit.

Precisely.  I think there are people around here who think, just because they want something, everyone else ought to want it too.  They vastly over-estimate the market for their particular niche interests and then they don't consider that these companies have to make money to stay in business, so catering to every tiny niche audience with their own personal game simply isn't going to happen.

Then again, I think there's a huge number of people out there who are convinced that just because they want something, someone owes it to them.

These people are in for a big surprise in the real world.

The real world?  Think about the wants and desires of the people complaining the most...you know the ones asking for big budget virtual worlds where you can bake cakes, sleep, eat and poop in your own little cabin?  You think they're interested in the real world at all, hehe.   

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by uquipu

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Big companies would have marketing panels and professional marketers who's sole job is to find out what their market wants.
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I'll go with that idea rather than they code blindly, just hoping for a hit.

Precisely.  I think there are people around here who think, just because they want something, everyone else ought to want it too.  They vastly over-estimate the market for their particular niche interests and then they don't consider that these companies have to make money to stay in business, so catering to every tiny niche audience with their own personal game simply isn't going to happen.

Then again, I think there's a huge number of people out there who are convinced that just because they want something, someone owes it to them.

These people are in for a big surprise in the real world.

Again, show me the hard data showing what the majority wants. What I read is you telling everyone else they are in the minority and then saying that you are with the majority. This all comes from your made up statistics. Funny, I underlined what you typed where you should take your own advice.

Originally posted by qombi

Again, show me the hard data showing what the majority wants. What I read is you telling everyone else they are in the minority and then saying that you are with the majority. This all comes from your made up statistics. Funny, I underlined what you typed where you should take your own advice.

Where have I ever said that I was with the majority?  I don't play *ANY* MMOs because they don't make any for me!  I'm probably with a smaller minority than you are, I just recognize the fact that I'm not going to get catered to because I am such a minority and I accept it.

Originally posted by uquipu

[quote]Originally posted by Cephus404
[b][quote]The fact is, it's likely that the current state of MMOs matches the desires of the majority of players.  It's only a very tiny minority, no matter how vocal, that doesn't like the way things are going.
[/b][/quote]

I got to agree with this part.
.
Big companies would have marketing panels and professional marketers who's sole job is to find out what their market wants.
.
I'll go with that idea rather than they code blindly, just hoping for a hit.

Big companies in charge of finding out what the market wants... so that's why all the WoW clones are doing so well, right?

AoC imploded and most companies involved went bankrupt, and they downsized their staff. WAR isn't doing too much better. And LotRO is being kept afloat by its IP. 

If the majority of people want more WoW clones, how come they aren't selling well? 

Because WoW players play WoW and won't leave it for a game exactly like it. They aren't MMO players. WoW didn't bring the market into the mainstream, it brought WoW into the mainstream. Sooner the companies realize this the better. 

Also, the "niche" of oldschool MMO players is between 200-600k. That's bigger than most MMOs right now. 

When it comes to old games I have no illusions. I admit I had a really good time playing some of them, some I would say were even profound experiences (these would exclusively be adventure games and RPGs)... But I would play very few of them today. I do the odd exception with Blade Runner or The Longest Journey or Planescape: Torment (all of which I load up and play once every few years), but you cannot make me go back to old MMOs.

As far as MMOs go, I did not exactly love them to start with, they always felt like amateurishly done RPGs to me. Of course, it was all about the social experience, which was fresh, so we were willing to overlook the shortcomings in the game mechanics themselves. The genre's very existence, which was new and exciting back then, was enought reason to play, but it's taken for granted now.

So to me it's not so much that the new games are worse (I believe they're better!), but the genre as a whole is not exactly delivering on the expectations. We expected so many great, innovative magical things, few of which have materialized. I'm beginning to think we set our expectations too high then, and the genre has settled into its conventionalist pace.

So it's a long time till the morning...

I suspect you are right that most wow players will not leave wow for a game that is nearly identical, but it is hard to say that based on past offerings.  Lotro played like a travel sized version of wow that lacked many of wows features and the other games were just a terrible mess at release.

It is very possible that people have had so much of wow they might just play a reskinned clone IF it was done well enough.  However I think most companies would do better emulating what made wow a success and not emulating wow itself.  Take the popular game model and imporve upon that.  Listen to what players are asking for and find solutions to that.

Originally posted by Daffid011

I suspect you are right that most wow players will not leave wow for a game that is nearly identical, but it is hard to say that based on past offerings.  Lotro played like a travel sized version of wow that lacked many of wows features and the other games were just a terrible mess at release.

 

It is very possible that people have had so much of wow they might just play a reskinned clone IF it was done well enough.  However I think most companies would do better emulating what made wow a success and not emulating wow itself.  Take the popular game model and imporve upon that.  Listen to what players are asking for and find solutions to that.

 

 

 

That's already what WoW did with EverQuest. They took what made it money and then dumbed it down for mass appeal.  Games are gonna have to start doing something different. 

[Mod Edit]

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

It is very possible that people have had so much of wow they might just play a reskinned clone IF it was done well enough.  However I think most companies would do better emulating what made wow a success and not emulating wow itself.  Take the popular game model and imporve upon that.  Listen to what players are asking for and find solutions to that.

  

I agree with the sentiment, though I'm beginning to fear just the same approach might not be enough today. When WOW launched, let's admit it, the MMO genre was a non-factor as far the "world at large" was concerned. A minority even knew about it. WOW was many people's first step into the genre, and they came to love what the genre had to offer through WOW. 

Now the genre has been exposed, most people have at least some idea about it. And people that haven't bought into the genre yet, obviously see no attraction as far as the currently leading design paradigms go. 

So I'm thinking if developers want to really bring in new people (or even move massive numbers from other games), they have to show more innovation than Blizzard did with WOW. 

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Daffid011

I suspect you are right that most wow players will not leave wow for a game that is nearly identical, but it is hard to say that based on past offerings.  Lotro played like a travel sized version of wow that lacked many of wows features and the other games were just a terrible mess at release.

 

It is very possible that people have had so much of wow they might just play a reskinned clone IF it was done well enough.  However I think most companies would do better emulating what made wow a success and not emulating wow itself.  Take the popular game model and imporve upon that.  Listen to what players are asking for and find solutions to that.

 

 

 

That's already what WoW did with EverQuest. They took what made it money and then dumbed it down for mass appeal. Can't really dumb it down any further than WoW already has. There's nowhere lower to go. Games are gonna have to start doing something different. 

People didn't flock to EQ, because more people did not find it entertaining to sit around for 15 hours straight only to have 15 minutes of entertainment.  Once you get past the ridiculous time sinks put into the game, EQ wasn't any harder than current mmos and I would argue that current mechanics and encounters are way more difficult. 

Time is not a measurement of skill or intelligence.  It does little more than challenge a players tollerance. 

EQ never captured the mass market, because it was the first of its kind and loaded with problems and mechanics that prevented it from attracting masses of people.  There was a ton of areas that needed improvement and the results are clear. 

EQ was a lot of fun but more unforgiving than other MMO's, and it didn't cater to the instant-gratification crowd as much as a number of current MMO's. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a matter of taste: yes, you could lose XP when you died up to even a few hours of playtime, but it made you more aware of what you could lose when you died in battle and it made hard won victories that much more satisfying. And yes, you had long travel times but it made you appreciate more the landscape you were traveling through and contributed to the feeling of vastness of the world in EQ.

The whole tank-healer-dps trinity emerged and became popular in EQ just as a number of other tactics like the pulling, kiting and cc that have since then become standard combat tactics in other MMO's. I can't say for sure if UO had it, but raiding definitely made its mark first in EQ.

So, a lot of things that originated from EQ and that made it the fun it was. Maybe not to everyone who played it, but that applies to any MMO. Combat was definitely tougher in EQ than in WoW, Lotro and a number of the other current MMO's around.

Lots of nostalgia going on in this topic.
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Fact is, you can play EQ or UO right now. Why aren't you? Experience the tedium for yourself.

Originally posted by uquipu

Lots of nostalgia going on in this topic.
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Fact is, you can play EQ or UO right now. Why aren't you? Experience the tedium for yourself.

"Oh, because it's not the same, they've dumbed the games down!"

Typical excuse.  These people want to live in the early 1990s.

Originally posted by uquipu

Lots of nostalgia going on in this topic.
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Fact is, you can play EQ or UO right now. Why aren't you? Experience the tedium for yourself.

There are a large number of reasons, and they've been stated already. The "its still there" excuse is so weak and pointless. 

We don't play the games anymore because the companies that made them have killed them with expansions/patches changing the direction of the game entirely (Dark Age of Camelot, SWG, Ultima Online) 

or they aren't supported by the parent company anymore, who have moved on to try their best at making WoW clones (DAoC) 

and the two above reasons has resulted in the population not being strong enough to support the game the way it used to be. 

Did you honestly not think of these reasons before you posted?

What made it great is gone, and the community that made it even better is gone too.

Some people just have to scorn the good memories others have when it's not about a game they know or love. Well, whatever *shrug*

Doom, Command & Conquer, Starcraft, Quake and a lot of toher games were good in their days too. That the game scene has moved on and that I don't play those anymore doesn't mean I can't sum up the things that were to be liked and admired of those games. if you can't understand such a thing, then that's your loss, not really my problem.