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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Strange Defense FOR Cash Shops

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308 posts found
  User Deleted
4/27/10 10:31:56 AM#301
Originally posted by nariusseldon

This notion of paying for items isn't playing the game is FLAWED. Sure, you are not playing the game to ACQUIRE the item, but you are playing the game for USING IT. There is utility (in econ lingual) or fun in riding a nice looking flying horse. In fact, that is WHY people shell out $25 for it. Flying around on it *is* PLAYING THE GAME.

I think that might be stretching the idea of "playing the game" a bit too far.    At the least, I would make that concept distinct from one of "gameplay" so as to avoid needless confusion.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17944

4/27/10 10:55:20 AM#302
Originally posted by Blueharp
Originally posted by nariusseldon

This notion of paying for items isn't playing the game is FLAWED. Sure, you are not playing the game to ACQUIRE the item, but you are playing the game for USING IT. There is utility (in econ lingual) or fun in riding a nice looking flying horse. In fact, that is WHY people shell out $25 for it. Flying around on it *is* PLAYING THE GAME.

I think that might be stretching the idea of "playing the game" a bit too far.    At the least, I would make that concept distinct from one of "gameplay" so as to avoid needless confusion.

 

Now you are defining "gameplay" just to suit your arguments.

What is gameplay? It is what a player does in the game. How is travelling in a mount NOT gameplay to you? How is showing off a pet NOT gameplay to you?

Is socialization in a MMO gameplay? Is the discussion of in-game items gameplay?

And it is not confusion. USING an item is an integral part of the MMO experience. Otherwise, there is no need for fluff items.

 

 

  User Deleted
4/27/10 11:13:02 AM#303
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Blueharp
Originally posted by nariusseldon

This notion of paying for items isn't playing the game is FLAWED. Sure, you are not playing the game to ACQUIRE the item, but you are playing the game for USING IT. There is utility (in econ lingual) or fun in riding a nice looking flying horse. In fact, that is WHY people shell out $25 for it. Flying around on it *is* PLAYING THE GAME.

I think that might be stretching the idea of "playing the game" a bit too far.    At the least, I would make that concept distinct from one of "gameplay" so as to avoid needless confusion.

 Now you are defining "gameplay" just to suit your arguments.

No, I'm defining gameplay to suit my usage and understanding of the words of the word, which it seems that people have a different understanding of than others.   That was actually the substance of my first post in this thread.   Yeah, I'm sure if you read it, you'd have forgotten it by now. 

Here it is though:

If you wish to object to the somewhat vague use of the term "gameplay" that's fair enough, would you prefer it with a qualifier, or would you just like folks to define it more explicitly?    Really, that's all your position here is, quibbling over the meaning of words. 

Sorry, but that's how I see it.   I'm willing to work with folks as to what means what, but don't give me grief about it.

What is gameplay? It is what a player does in the game. How is travelling in a mount NOT gameplay to you? How is showing off a pet NOT gameplay to you?

Traveling in a mount is one thing.  A particular mount is another.   The one is gameplay.   The other?  May not.   Maybe if the mounts have different characteristics, then it would be.  But if it's just appearance, like say the Argent Tournament mounts?  You can pick any one of the.  But that's not affecting your gameplay.  Not at all.

Same like showing off a pet is not gameplay.  That's just...showing off a pet.  Big whup.  

Is socialization in a MMO gameplay? Is the discussion of in-game items gameplay?

Not necessarily.  And that would be an example of socialization that probably isn't gameplay.   It's like how discussion of a roleplaying story isn't actually roleplaying that story.

And it is not confusion. USING an item is an integral part of the MMO experience. Otherwise, there is no need for fluff items.

Um?   Actually I do see it as confusion.  Confusion arises when people mean different things from the same words.   See, I can see from your usage of words that you are not using them like I am.  It happens.  I would certainly agree fluff items are part of an MMO experience.  I would consider them to be vanity items that do not contribute to gameplay.    They contribute to personal enjoyment, and do not matter as to gameplay.  Many things that contribute to the MMO experience are not actually part of the gameplay itself.   I suppose they may be part of the game, but they aren't gameplay to me.

I suppose we could come up with different, more precise and specific terms if you want.   Then we'd at least be speaking the same language.

Would that be your preference?  Do you have any suggestions?


 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17944

4/27/10 1:19:41 PM#304

Um?   Actually I do see it as confusion.  Confusion arises when people mean different things from the same words.   See, I can see from your usage of words that you are not using them like I am.  It happens.  I would certainly agree fluff items are part of an MMO experience.  I would consider them to be vanity items that do not contribute to gameplay.    They contribute to personal enjoyment, and do not matter as to gameplay.  Many things that contribute to the MMO experience are not actually part of the gameplay itself.   I suppose they may be part of the game, but they aren't gameplay to me.

Ok, we will use your definitions. It is pointless to argue semantics.

In that case, i would then argue that why only focus on gameplay (as you defined it). The total MMO experience is MORE than that. If people are having fun running around in a new spiffy mount (which you cannot argue there are no such people) and that this kind of NON-GAMEPLAY activities have values for them, there is no reason why they should not pay money to get it.

So they skip gameplay and focus on another non-gameplay ENJOYABLE experience. I don't see why they should not do that. Not all gameplay elements are fun and enjoyable experiences.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

4/27/10 6:06:33 PM#305
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

So you're saying I'm now dependent on your game play for me to enjoy the game.  Much of the coolest gear and fluff drop from raid areas.   Let's say I don't have the option to raid.  Now I am dependent on your game play and you get to set the price and availability to enhance your game play experience at my expense.  I'm just there as a revenue generator to support your game play.  No thanks.

Once you start buying those end game rewards - you are no longer playing a game. Once you start buying from the cash shop - you are telling the devs to put more in it, at the expense of rewards for playing the game. You're no longer a player, you're a customer.

This post hits the nail on the head. Why are you people wanting to pay 15/months to play dress up with your credit card? You can go online to amazon.com and do this if you really don't have time to actually play a game and get real merchandise for your money.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5162

Opportunist

4/28/10 1:05:50 AM#306
Originally posted by qombi
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

So you're saying I'm now dependent on your game play for me to enjoy the game.  Much of the coolest gear and fluff drop from raid areas.   Let's say I don't have the option to raid.  Now I am dependent on your game play and you get to set the price and availability to enhance your game play experience at my expense.  I'm just there as a revenue generator to support your game play.  No thanks.

Once you start buying those end game rewards - you are no longer playing a game. Once you start buying from the cash shop - you are telling the devs to put more in it, at the expense of rewards for playing the game. You're no longer a player, you're a customer.

This post hits the nail on the head. Why are you people wanting to pay 15/months to play dress up with your credit card? You can go online to amazon.com and do this if you really don't have time to actually play a game and get real merchandise for your money.

Why do you pay $15 a month to play paper dolls in WoW, EQ2, Ryzom, Lineage, or whatever other game you play? You're paying to play.  Stop paying your monthly fee and your paper doll game goes away.  Why not just hop on down to Walmart and grab yourself a Barbie?  I mean it would save you a monthly fee and give you some real dolls to play with.

Hey, now games have "lifetime" subs (STO & LotRO) where you can buy your sub in a one off really expensive micro-transaction.  Shouldn't people that spend $200 - $300 on a "lifetime" membership just go down to Target and buy black turtlenecks instead?

Do you see that the "why" of someone playing is irrelevant?  There is no entrance requirement for entertainment.  Those selling it want anyone wiling to pay to come and watch the show as long as they behave.  Hecklers usually get tossed.  Outside of that anyone that can pay can play.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5162

Opportunist

4/28/10 1:20:26 AM#307
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

So you're saying I'm now dependent on your game play for me to enjoy the game.  Much of the coolest gear and fluff drop from raid areas.   Let's say I don't have the option to raid.  Now I am dependent on your game play and you get to set the price and availability to enhance your game play experience at my expense.  I'm just there as a revenue generator to support your game play.  No thanks.

Once you start buying those end game rewards - you are no longer playing a game. Once you start buying from the cash shop - you are telling the devs to put more in it, at the expense of rewards for playing the game. You're no longer a player, you're a customer.

I missed this post earlier, sorry.  Anyway... 

Your $15/month payment to the game company of your choice makes you what? Friends?  I'm pretty sure they think of you as a customer.  Stop payment on your credit card and see how long your friend the MMO game company lets you keep playing.

Of course when you support a business model you're telling the company to keep providing it. That's a no brainer.  I bought the cosmetic holiday set in Guild Wars this last Christmas.  I noticed they're selling a new set now so enough people must have bought it to support them making a new one.  I'm not buying it because I don't want it but I'm glad it's successful for them.  I haven't used the cash shop in EQ2 and don't plan to, but it didn't ruin the game like I thought it would.  That came as a surprise.

 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4733

4/29/10 3:13:07 AM#308

P2P is for players, RMT is for consumers, you can’t take that Celestial Steed (or whatever) with you. Once you leave the game it is gone. This is like going to a movie and buying a tie in t-shirt that you have to leave in the stalls before you go. But if they can con you into paying it is Kerching! time.

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