Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Normally, I don't play MMORPGs solo, ever.

I find the solo game play to be very similar to counting grains of sand at the beach, or maybe watching  clothes go around in a dryer. The quests dont' change the game world, and the combat is just whack whack whack.

So far, there isn't any game that's been released that I would say I'd play it offline ot max level. I'd be bored to tears, and this goes for my favorite MMORPGs like DaoC, EQ, or CoH.

However, I can say that although it's not released yet, and I haven't played it, TOR looks like I might actually want to play that game, if it was offline. I liked KOTOR, a single player game, and TOR looks like a great big KOTOR.

If that turns out the be the case, that it would be fun to play, EVEN OFFLINE, I believe it will be a smash hit.

You should ask the WoW forum this question, and why they would.

Originally posted by swshbcklr

There's nothing to like about a game that destroyed MMORPGs. 

They killed Worlds, killed PvP, killed challenging content, killed exploring, killed any thought process that older games used to require.  I'm supposed to say good things about that?  Yeah right. 

Where are the good points again?

I complained about their solo leveling system, and here you come telling me it has good features somehow related to that?  What is good about a single player "MMORPG" that doesn't require interaction with other players. 

Also, I find it funny that you aren't even playing it now.  Why is that?  Because it sucks?  If WoW was really an MMORPG you wouldn't cancel your account.  Characters there don't represent an investment, and the game consists of grinding PvE and PvP for gear.  A boring game..

The ability to solo level has one awesome feature: zero LFG downtime.

It has another great feature; players learn all their class skills, not just the few necessary to fulfill a restrictive "group role".  They also learn to be aware of the fight rather than relying on another player to heal them, tank for them, kill for them.

WoW killed nothing but the hardcore "I am better than you because I play more" mentality.

Ain't gonna mourn that.

Another leap in logic there. My favourite song is Alice Cooper's "Poison" .. but I don't listen to it every minute of every day. Favourite food is noodles, but I don't eat them for every meal. I play games in the same way; if I fancy a change then I change.

Doesn't mean that I won't be eating noodles and listening to Alice Cooper next week.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by swshbcklr

There's nothing to like about a game that destroyed MMORPGs. 

They killed Worlds, killed PvP, killed challenging content, killed exploring, killed any thought process that older games used to require.  I'm supposed to say good things about that?  Yeah right. 

Where are the good points again?

I complained about their solo leveling system, and here you come telling me it has good features somehow related to that?  What is good about a single player "MMORPG" that doesn't require interaction with other players. 

The ability to solo level has one awesome feature: zero LFG downtime.

It has another great feature; players learn all their class skills, not just the few necessary to fulfill a restrictive "group role".  They also learn to be aware of the fight rather than relying on another player to heal them, tank for them, kill for them.

WoW killed nothing but the hardcore "I am better than you because I play more" mentality.

Ain't gonna mourn that.

WoW players probably have more /played than EQ ones, with all the PvE and PvP timesink farms they have in the game, and daily quests.  Maybe check your own /played time next time you log into WoW before you pretend you somehow invested LESS time than you would in an older MMORPG. 

I guess you didn't play WoW when they had the whole Grand Marshal thing.  Those titles were just given out to players who had the highest Honor Points, so people would grind Battlegrounds all day.  Grand Marshal required about 20 hours/day of playing for several months to obtain.  Yeah, WoW really killed that. 

And Now they just have so many PvE instances you stay logged in doing trivial PVE/ PVP content and dailys all day.

WoW is funny because you can invest MORE time and your character still will be worthless.

WoW exp system consists of mashing buttons on mobs until your mana runs out.   In EQ you actually had to pay attention because the mobs could kill you. 

Solo exp should be bad, group exp should be better.  That way the content can be actually kept at a challenging level.  Why group in a game where you can solo at the same/better exp than you could in a group?  Can't I Just play a single player game and get the same experience? 

Originally posted by Bigdavo

Without the multiplayer component MMOs are pretty much sub-par games, so the answer is no.

I disagree, if LOTRO, WOW, Vanguard or EQ2 were all just offline solo games they would be on par with Oblivion, at least. I think much better because of how much more depth they have, these games have so much more content than any offline game, and the character building is much more in depth as well. They could also make the graphics much better as well since it would be an offline game.

Originally posted by swshbcklr

WoW players probably have more /played than EQ ones, with all the PvE and PvP timesink farms they have in the game, and daily quests.  Maybe check your own /played time next time you log into WoW before you pretend you somehow invested LESS time than you would in an older MMORPG.

WoW is funny because you can invest MORE time and your character still will be worthless.

WoW exp system consists of mashing buttons on mobs until your mana runs out.   In EQ you actually had to pay attention because the mobs could kill you. 

Solo exp should be bad, group exp should be better.  That way the content can be actually kept at a challenging level.  Why group in a game where you can solo at the same/better exp than you could in a group?  Can't I Just play a single player game and get the same experience? 

My /played is high, yup .. know why? .. I enjoy the game. On my terms.

Yup, WoW XP system is sooo different than that of AoC. Or WAR. Hey, remember UO skill system where you could just macro your way to 100 skill? .. you could do the same in SWG .. and what was EQ's XP system again? .. spending ages /lfg then grinding mobs for hours on end spamming one or two buttons.

Group content could be kept at a challenging level by .. making the group content challenging. Why group in a game supports both playstyles? .. don't you want to group? .. if it's your preference to group, and the game supports grouping, and grouping is as viable as soloing then you should (and can) group.

Solo-friendly MMOs are nothing like single player games. That shouldn't even need explaining.

FFXI. Easily. Although, they would have to do it like they do all the other single player FFs, and give me a full party of characters to work with, but do that and the game content itself isn't much different from the single player installments. It is THAT well made.

Originally posted by swshbcklr

I guess you didn't play WoW when they had the whole Grand Marshal thing.  Those titles were just given out to players who had the highest Honor Points, so people would grind Battlegrounds all day.  Grand Marshal required about 20 hours/day of playing for several months to obtain.  Yeah, WoW really killed that.

I was around back then; what's your point?

It was a rubbish system; the developers recognised that it was a rubbish system and replaced it with a system that wasn't rubbish. Score one for common sense?

Originally posted by Thoric485

The formula of Realm of the Dark God is also a very interesting one. There's a limited number of minions, you gather up with the other people in your server, slay, slay, slay increasingly difficult minions, get increasingly better gear, maybe die (permeadeath) 'till the god appears, the bunch who've made it to him at the risk of losing high level chars and gear maybe kill him and get the best loot in the game. After that, the same thing all over again.

Just a corrective here, I think you meant Realm of the Mad God rather than the "Dark" ... And I'm not trying to be a tool here, but after reading the post I was intrigued to check it out and it looks like it is worth a go.  (in case any others ignorant of the game wanted to check it out.)

now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

Phantasy Star Online, but that was an offline/online MMO so I guess I'm cheating?

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by swshbcklr

I guess you didn't play WoW when they had the whole Grand Marshal thing.  Those titles were just given out to players who had the highest Honor Points, so people would grind Battlegrounds all day.  Grand Marshal required about 20 hours/day of playing for several months to obtain.  Yeah, WoW really killed that.

I was around back then; what's your point?

It was a rubbish system; the developers recognised that it was a rubbish system and replaced it with a system that wasn't rubbish. Score one for common sense?

It was a rubbish system, but it sure wasn't replaced with 'a system that wasn't rubbish'. Arenas are just as bad in their own right, with skill being a backseat factor to group comp and gear. While the idea of 'go go farm the most honor' absolutely lead to account sharing and endless playing of toons, where skill had little to do with the equation of success, at least in the r14 system you stood a shot if you had good 'macro' versus 'micro'. Controlling the flow of an AB for example.

The system needed but one small tweak, not an entire absolution. Said tweak needed to be, on top of weekly honor minimums, an honor/time invested ratio. That's all that was needed to make something that was entirely broken to being entirely in-line.

Look, I don't like WoW all that much but this is not a bash-WoW thread.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by swshbcklr

Well, WoW just shares many of the bad features that are in these topics.

Ilvadyr never addresses the content of anti-WOW posts because he can't defend them.. poor guy

If I was playing a bad MMORPG, I would at least admit what sucks about it.  Must be really addicted

 

Dude...."bad MMORPG" is YOUR opinion and an entirely subjective topic of discussion anyway, so lay off Ilvaldyr. You're no better than he is. He's entitled to play whatever he wants and think whatever he wants about whatever GAME he wants. Deal. At least he's genuine and seems honest about what he thinks AND what he plays. He's just not an EXTREMIST fanboi or hater...and those are the two primary "cliques" here on MMORPG.com when it comes to WoW. Some of us...just choose NOT to sign either charter.

Yup, asinine assumptions and disingenous assertations. Hi Ginkeq.

I stopped playing WoW. Got a bit bored. Will return with Cata.

WoW has faults. All MMOs have faults. So so very true. I don't care to defend WoW because it's pointless. And if you try to defend it, like in threads calling it "just like Guild Wars" you'll invariably be attacked by someone who doesn't like the REST of what you said in your post. You can't "win" defending WoW, even with the WoW fanboi types....trust me. WoW-hate consumes a weak mind and excludes rational thinking. Trying to explain WoW's good points to someone so deeply entrenched in their negative fugue is like trying to describe the moon to a mole. There's just no way they're going to understand the concept.

And that LAST part of that paragraph is TRUE, while being brilliantly poetic. Damn...I wish I'd said it. And I agree with you....WoW has a lot of good points (even though I don't always agree with other people on WHAT those good points ARE...like I HATE the LFD/LFG thing, but that's ME). I wouldn't have played it for five years if it was entirely a bucket of shit. But there are people on these boards that find it had to comprehend that one can see both a game's GOOD points AND bad.

'Round here seems you have to be a "hater" or a "fanboi" and nothing else is acceptable when it comes to WoW.

But then....my ability to think independently has always been one of my strongest attributes. I don't give a shit what the haters OR fanbois say...I don't HAVE to agree with either of their extremist views on WoW or anything else. I speak my genuine opinion on things and I play....what I enjoy....when I'm enjoying it.  And whether that is EQ2 this year, WoW next year, TSW the year after and fookin' HELLO KITTY Online on the weekends...the choices are mine alone to make.

So to you I say...."Cheers!"  And just keep being GENUINE.

On topic:

There is no MMORPG that I would play OFFLINE. To me....that defeats the ENTIRE point of an MMO of ANY kind, including MMOFPS and other types of MMOs that are not MMORPGs. Whether I'm grouped, raiding, or soloing....exploring, crafting, WHATEVER....part of the feeling of world immersion comes from the other living beings playing.

If I want to play with no real people running around making the game world feel alive....I will play a single player game of some sort, either an adventure game or an RPG.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by swshbcklr

There's nothing to like about a game that destroyed MMORPGs. 

They killed Worlds, killed PvP, killed challenging content, killed exploring, killed any thought process that older games used to require.  I'm supposed to say good things about that?  Yeah right. 

Where are the good points again?

I complained about their solo leveling system, and here you come telling me it has good features somehow related to that?  What is good about a single player "MMORPG" that doesn't require interaction with other players. 

Also, I find it funny that you aren't even playing it now.  Why is that?  Because it sucks?  If WoW was really an MMORPG you wouldn't cancel your account.  Characters there don't represent an investment, and the game consists of grinding PvE and PvP for gear.  A boring game..

The ability to solo level has one awesome feature: zero LFG downtime.

That feature doesn't do much for me. I find ZERO entertainment value in playing MMORPGs solo.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

That feature doesn't do much for me. I find ZERO entertainment value in playing MMORPGs solo.

Different strokes for different folks.

I feel exactly the same way about sitting LFG waiting for groups; or having to group with eejits because the game mechanics demand that I must group, and there are no non-eejits available.

AC2

Originally posted by pojung

It was a rubbish system, but it sure wasn't replaced with 'a system that wasn't rubbish'. Arenas are just as bad in their own right, with skill being a backseat factor to group comp and gear. While the idea of 'go go farm the most honor' absolutely lead to account sharing and endless playing of toons, where skill had little to do with the equation of success, at least in the r14 system you stood a shot if you had good 'macro' versus 'micro'. Controlling the flow of an AB for example.

The system needed but one small tweak, not an entire absolution. Said tweak needed to be, on top of weekly honor minimums, an honor/time invested ratio. That's all that was needed to make something that was entirely broken to being entirely in-line.

I disagree entirely.

The R14 system was a classic example of an MMO system rewarding only time investment. Arena isn't perfect, and yes it suffers from FoTM rerollers and balance issues, but it's MMO PvP. MMO PvP always suffers from balance issues and FoTM classes. At least it requires the player to pay attention and to actually play their class in a competitive environment.

I'm going to shamelessly misrepresent the second highlght (I'll apologise in advance) as the wording is just so unintentionally apt; I remember back in the R14 heyday, there were a TON of warnings, suspensions and bannings handed out by people who were using third party software and macro programs to achieve high rank while afk in battlegrounds.

While it's always going to be coloured by preference: new system = (in my opinion) better.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by pojung

It was a rubbish system, but it sure wasn't replaced with 'a system that wasn't rubbish'. Arenas are just as bad in their own right, with skill being a backseat factor to group comp and gear. While the idea of 'go go farm the most honor' absolutely lead to account sharing and endless playing of toons, where skill had little to do with the equation of success, at least in the r14 system you stood a shot if you had good 'macro' versus 'micro'. Controlling the flow of an AB for example.

The system needed but one small tweak, not an entire absolution. Said tweak needed to be, on top of weekly honor minimums, an honor/time invested ratio. That's all that was needed to make something that was entirely broken to being entirely in-line.

I disagree entirely.

The R14 system was a classic example of an MMO system rewarding only time investment. Arena isn't perfect, and yes it suffers from FoTM rerollers and balance issues, but it's MMO PvP. MMO PvP always suffers from balance issues and FoTM classes. At least it requires the player to pay attention and to actually play their class in a competitive environment.

I'm going to shamelessly misrepresent the second highlght (I'll apologise in advance) as the wording is just so unintentionally apt; I remember back in the R14 heyday, there were a TON of warnings, suspensions and bannings handed out by people who were using third party software and macro programs to achieve high rank while afk in battlegrounds.

While it's always going to be coloured by preference: new system = (in my opinion) better.

Your opinion. Kindly take a glance at this: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/274715 . And read pages on pages of emotional outpouring on AJ as to the imbalance (if there was a stronger word, I'd use it) of arena.

The rest of your first paragraph is unsupported. Your second paragraph doesn't address the highlight.

From one old schooler to another, where arena is nothing more than a bomb-fest in ability, at least the r14 system rewarded investment, and required it from all. Where one might argue (and be refuted- there are videos supporting this) that arena requires an investment of skill *by all*, the r14 system required a time investment by all (circumvented with account sharing).

Blizzard has failed, fails, and will continue to fail at class balance. Arenas will continue to be fail. The r14 system needed just a ratio modifier for ranks, and all would have been well. You said it, but are missing a small caveat: MMO *small-scale* PvP will always be imbalanced. The macro-game can easily be balanced, if it isn't already in many games.

I haven't played single player games since I started my first MMORPG over 8 years ago.  Sure, I've tried to go back, even gave KOTOR, HL2, and a couple a go, but they just didn't do it for me anymore.

So there is no game I would play offline to max level.

But then again, I'm pretty much done with level based games so the point is moot I suppose.

Originally posted by luckturtz

 

AoC with a little adjustment would make a great offline rpg.

I was thinking the same thing, say they had made the game single player, it would most likely have a greater focus on story telling (more voice over etc..), which it already does to an extent. Really as is, AOC isn't much different than something like NWN2 in it's presentation. Tortage was basically a single player RPG to begin with. I love the Conan story, so I'd definitely play a decent single player RPG based on it. AOC to an extent is what you would get if you made a Bioware/Obsidian rpg into an MMO. I used to play a lot of the PW's for NWN1/2. AOC has always felt similar to them.

Originally posted by pojung

Your opinion. Kindly take a glance at this: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/274715 . And read pages on pages of emotional outpouring on AJ as to the imbalance (if there was a stronger word, I'd use it) of arena.

The rest of your first paragraph is unsupported. Your second paragraph doesn't address the highlight.

From one old schooler to another, where arena is nothing more than a bomb-fest in ability, at least the r14 system rewarded investment, and required it from all. Where one might argue (and be refuted- there are videos supporting this) that arena requires an investment of skill *by all*, the r14 system required a time investment by all (circumvented with account sharing).

Blizzard has failed, fails, and will continue to fail at class balance. Arenas will continue to be fail. The r14 system needed just a ratio modifier for ranks, and all would have been well. You said it, but are missing a small caveat: MMO *small-scale* PvP will always be imbalanced. The macro-game can easily be balanced, if it isn't already in many games.

My second paragraph raises a valid point in regards to how the R14 system was deeply, deeply flawed, which is the core of this debate. You could hit R14 without touching the keyboard. You've attempted to dismiss that point without attempting to counter it; why is that?

I'm not sure what you're attempting to prove by linking a youtube video of arena fights; but you did prove one very interesting thing; they sure as hell weren't afk. But thank you, because posting that video did prove my "unsupported" point; they are paying attention. To their characters, the opponents, their team members and their environment.

Yes, Blizzard doesn't do class balance well. They never have, and I would not claim otherwise. No matter what method of PvP system they have in place, they're always going to have problems with balancing their classes. Not the issue.

The highlight is your opinion. The R14 system needed what it got; a complete overhaul.