Or at least make it really short.

Leveling is like an elogated tutorial.  As you level up, you learn how the game works, and then get to the endgame.  A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game.  That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies.  So why not change the dynamic a bit.  A dozen levels might be enough to allow someone to learn how to play a character, or some form of level-less system.  The point is, after so many different MMOs, levelling has gotten pretty boring.  So let's do away with it.  It might help the persistant worlds, too.  There's plenty of mid level areas that are never revisited once a character levels past them.  Suddenly, there's no more need for these areas, and the whole world can be relevant at max level play, which would then be the majority of the game.

In Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, not online), levelling works just fine because there are always cutting edge challenges for you, scaled to your level.  That's the benefit of a human DM.  But MMOs don't have that.  So let's try and put people at the max level that much faster, and stop spending time, effort, and money on the mid-game that is really nothing more than a time sink.

My case in point is Aion.  Abyss PvP is really cool.  The questing and leveling in that game makes me want to hurl myself out of a sixty third story window.  Focus on the good parts, and just give the rest of it the axe.

Posted by Athcear on 3/29/10 at 9:50:24 PM

A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. if you say so...

Honestly I really dont mind questing, I actually read the text and enjoy the storylines (crazy huh!?!) to me its about the journey and the destination.

well, I like the leveling, building your character bit by bit.

I think they already have PVP combat games that do away with needless leveling, called first person shooters as I recall.

MMORPG's are all about character progression, its what defines the genre. Sandbox games don't suffer quite as severely as theme park games, but don't kid yourself, they have a progression system built into them that has to be climbed that lets the player enjoy more and more of the game.

Originally posted by Athcear

Or at least make it really short.

Leveling is like an elogated tutorial.  As you level up, you learn how the game works, and then get to the endgame.  A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game.  That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies.  So why not change the dynamic a bit.  A dozen levels might be enough to allow someone to learn how to play a character, or some form of level-less system.  The point is, after so many different MMOs, levelling has gotten pretty boring.  So let's do away with it.  It might help the persistant worlds, too.  There's plenty of mid level areas that are never revisited once a character levels past them.  Suddenly, there's no more need for these areas, and the whole world can be relevant at max level play, which would then be the majority of the game.

In Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, not online), levelling works just fine because there are always cutting edge challenges for you, scaled to your level.  That's the benefit of a human DM.  But MMOs don't have that.  So let's try and put people at the max level that much faster, and stop spending time, effort, and money on the mid-game that is really nothing more than a time sink.

My case in point is Aion.  Abyss PvP is really cool.  The questing and leveling in that game makes me want to hurl myself out of a sixty third story window.  Focus on the good parts, and just give the rest of it the axe.

Leveling is only boring because newer MMORPGs are designed for kids.  You can't die in newer MMORPGs. 

Of course leveling will be boring when there is no risk.

EQ leveling actually had risk, and was fun.  The problem isn't leveling, it's shitty MMORPGs for brainless zombies

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think they already have PVP combat games that do away with needless leveling, called first person shooters as I recall.

MMORPG's are all about character progression, its what defines the genre. Sandbox games don't suffer quite as severely as theme park games, but don't kid yourself, they have a progression system built into them that has to be climbed that lets the player enjoy more and more of the game.

Yeah, you can really enjoy the meaningless leveling in games like WoW.  It only let like 8000 people on an 8000 person server be level 80, and have the same gear.

At least EQ had a spread of levels instead of letting all the horrible players reach 60 fast.

Posted by happyiksar on 3/29/10 at 10:08:37 PM

Yeah, you can really enjoy the meaningless leveling in games like WoW.  It only let like 8000 people on an 8000 person server be level 80, and have the same gear.

At least EQ had a spread of levels instead of letting all the horrible players reach 60 fast.

hey looks like we got a winner folks, let me see here....bash WoW..check.....state that EQ is better..check....troll much?

Originally posted by Acvivm

Posted by Athcear on 3/29/10 at 9:50:24 PM

A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. if you say so...

Honestly I really dont mind questing, I actually read the text and enjoy the storylines (crazy huh!?!) to me its about the journey and the destination.

sorry but you're in the minority, most don't care what the story is they just want to rush through to get the max level so they can start having fun in the game. thats why "quest helper" and other addons are so popular in WOW. most don't care why this noble wants you to slay 10 undead, they only care about how many you need to slay and where they are.

I have heard people call leveling the "access/entrance quest to the fun part of the game" and even the "punishment you have to endure in order to access the fun part of the game"

i think they should get rid of the level progression system there has got to be a better way of progressing your character besides "ooo i gained more HP/MP and a new ability or two!"

Originally posted by happyiksar

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think they already have PVP combat games that do away with needless leveling, called first person shooters as I recall.

MMORPG's are all about character progression, its what defines the genre. Sandbox games don't suffer quite as severely as theme park games, but don't kid yourself, they have a progression system built into them that has to be climbed that lets the player enjoy more and more of the game.

 

Yeah, you can really enjoy the meaningless leveling in games like WoW.  It only let like 8000 people on an 8000 person server be level 80, and have the same gear.

At least EQ had a spread of levels instead of letting all the horrible players reach 60 fast.

yeah because skill is determined by how long you can sit in the same spot of the game and grind the same mob.

I've wondered this too.  If endgame is the only place to be then why have anything else?  I don't mind a journey if it is good, however the trend seems to be to put a journey in for the sake of having one.

Without the leveling part a CRPG looses another essential component (besides a non-linear storyline which MMORPGs have abandoned already). In some CRPGs the hardest and most difficult part is the beginning, when your adventurer / group of adventurers are new and don't have many powers, resources and equipment at hand. And besides the most fun part, imho.

MMORPGs have turned this upside down, for sake of accessibility. Removing the leveling part would grant swifter access to the "end game", but it would alienate players that due to various reasons don't participate in the "end-game".

I wouldnt mind a reduced leveling scale such as Guildwars has, while bringing in the extensive Alternate Advancement levels that EQ had. For the casuals you only needed certain levels in certain things, for the hardcore you could certainly do a lot more with it.

What's all this about end-game..? Take the road to get there and then wonder about the end-game.

I guess both Athcear and gauge2k3 have only played Western MMORPG's, or never really played them and been playong on the console? There are lots of games out there where the game doesn "start" at the end - i.e. when you have hit the cap. For that reason I've never hit cap in any of the games I've played. I did have fun in those games with PvP and PvE. What's more exciting than siege a castle with 100s of players and have a mass PvP with at least 200 players?

...but I know it already... You two (amonst others) are spoiled by the WoWisation of games, where you indeed MUST be on the level cap before you can PvP. Well, good news! Both WoW and GuildWars offer you the chance to make a maxed out char and skip the whole leveling thing. You know what? Better buy Half Life 2, get one of the plug-ins (I guess TFC) and PvP there in equal groups on the same battle-ground over and over again.

Originally posted by Athcear

Or at least make it really short.

Leveling is like an elogated tutorial.  As you level up, you learn how the game works, and then get to the endgame.  A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game.  That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies.  So why not change the dynamic a bit.  A dozen levels might be enough to allow someone to learn how to play a character, or some form of level-less system.  The point is, after so many different MMOs, levelling has gotten pretty boring.  So let's do away with it.  It might help the persistant worlds, too.  There's plenty of mid level areas that are never revisited once a character levels past them.  Suddenly, there's no more need for these areas, and the whole world can be relevant at max level play, which would then be the majority of the game.

In Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, not online), levelling works just fine because there are always cutting edge challenges for you, scaled to your level.  That's the benefit of a human DM.  But MMOs don't have that.  So let's try and put people at the max level that much faster, and stop spending time, effort, and money on the mid-game that is really nothing more than a time sink.

My case in point is Aion.  Abyss PvP is really cool.  The questing and leveling in that game makes me want to hurl myself out of a sixty third story window.  Focus on the good parts, and just give the rest of it the axe.

I'd blame developers for a bad game design. Why should we play 200 hours of tetris before we can start playing chess.

We are so spoonfed this 'leveling - endgame' -kind of concept that we dont even want to see what other solutions there could be.

I believe there is going to be a large shift towards sand-box style games simply for this reason.

The majority of people are tired of leveling. Its not because we are lazy; its because we have seen it, or done it, all before. I always get a chuckle out of people who play an MMO for 5 months, never reach cap, claim they love the game, love the leveling experience and move on shortly afterwards having never experienced what a good 90% of MMO players consider to be "The Game". To each their own. However, continuing to use it as an argumentative basis after that 90% have already spoken against it, is redundant. 

"In Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, not online), levelling works just fine because there are always cutting edge challenges for you, scaled to your level.  That's the benefit of a human DM.  But MMOs don't have that."

Another viable solution is to give MMORPGs that.  I mean, CoX had it.  Fight something tough, you got rewarded - it was worth it to kill mobs 5 levels above you.  Sure killing them took twice as long as the even-level mob, but it yielded 3x the XP!  It was worth it!

Add to that a difficulty setting which lets you increase the number and level of mobs in your dungeons, and you have one of the only MMORPGs to offer a great spread of difficulty.  Everyone was happy when it came to finding the exact type of challenge they wanted.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think they already have PVP combat games that do away with needless leveling, called first person shooters as I recall.

MMORPG's are all about character progression, its what defines the genre. Sandbox games don't suffer quite as severely as theme park games, but don't kid yourself, they have a progression system built into them that has to be climbed that lets the player enjoy more and more of the game.

 This is the perfect response to this thread.  This has to be, by far, the worst thread to have in an MMORPG forum.  This would be the worst thing to ever happen to MMO's if it did.  What about new players?!  A new player can't just jump into WoW (easiest example) and be able to just start raiding, arenas, or whatever at endgame if they have no idea how to play their character.  But alas... WoW has turned into this... everyone is expected to know everything there is to know about the game when they raid or do anything in "endgame"  and if you don't know it, you're an idiot apparently.  I know you said to cut it down and not take it completely away... but why?! 

If you don't like the grind of MMO's... don't play them.  It's as simple as that..   Take this thread and apply it to say.... Final Fantasy, or any single player RPG.  There essentially wouldn't be a need for any of these games.  If not for the leveling up process, all you'd need is a simple paragraph or two explaining who Sephiroth is and why you have to kill him, then they give you all the summons, magic, swords and characters you need to kill him, then off you go to the crater.  Done.  This thread is just absurd.

Leveling up and building your character from the ground up in a way you like to build them, exploring, and *GASP* story, are really what RPG's are about.  (as someone already stated)

Do as I do.

"level" your character with experience turned off.

Maximize the gaming fun that can be reached around your own set level - in questing or crafting or AH sales and buys.

Go up to the extreme frontier with your character and try to slay that elite 37 with your 36 but all in blues and the best possible set up (acquired from running the most difficult quests and dungeons).

Then go all out to the last 3 levels of each 10-bracket and only do PvP as a leveling challenge. It will take at least a year to reach anything looking  like an end game.

All possible in WOW these days. Not even remotely present in other games (due to the lack of several combo  factors like cross server always pop-up dungeons, leveling through pvp, experience put off, crafting gear above your own level etc...).

MMORPG's are ALL about YOU setting the pace. Become Justicar at level 56 ... :)

And it is so much fun when seeing an enemy 4 to 5 levels above you that simply doesn't have a chance against your purple/blue avatar.

There is not even an argument when playing like that. Levels? WTF...

Before this turns into another "WoW is so great" (yes, Camp11111, I meant you) or "WoW sucks thread", in answer to the OP:

they tried to do without leveling in GuildWars, where you had only 20 levels to learn your character. You could reach L20 within a few full days if you wanted to, in fact you could already jump into the high end PvP with one of the available template characters right from the start. GuildWars had a number of pretty interesting game designs, like combat with a limited skillrange and skills that interacted with eachother a la Magic the Gathering, dowtimeless patching and NPC henchmen to fill out groups.

So it has been done. And it showed that such a system can be successful, because they delivered a few expansions that sold in the 100,000s to millions while there was still no level cap raise. But it also showed that many people actually liked to progress in leveling, because many were craving for  a level cap raise. There are other methods to measure progress and growth in a MMO than levels, and I'm glad that a number of upcoming MMO's are experimenting with that. But the level system hasn't been successful by luck: it's what many people like.

About the urgent haste  with which many players rush through the content, focused on reaching the level cap, I'm gonna say what I mentioned earlier on these forums: the way they do it resembles with sitting at a 5-course meal gobbling everything up just to know what the dessert is, while then being disappointed that it's just a dessert. 

The endgame content isn't the be all and end all, the content of a MMO throughout the levels isn't there to rush by, it's there to enjoy your ingame experience, just like all the courses of a 5-course meal are there for your dining pleasure, and not just the final course.

Originally posted by cyphers

Before this turns into another "WoW is so great" (yes, Camp11111, I meant you) or "WoW sucks thread", in answer to the OP:

they tried to do without leveling in GuildWars, where you had only 20 levels to learn your character. You could reach L20 within a few full days if you wanted to, in fact you could already jump into the high end PvP with one of the available template characters right from the start. GuildWars had a number of pretty interesting game designs, like combat with a limited skillrange and skills that interacted with eachother a la Magic the Gathering, dowtimeless patching and NPC henchmen to fill out groups.

 

So it has been done. And it showed that such a system can be successful, because they delivered a few expansions that sold in the 100,000s to millions while there was still no level cap raise. But it also showed that many people actually liked to progress in leveling, because many were craving for  a level cap raise. There are other methods to measure progress and growth in a MMO than levels, and I'm glad that a number of upcoming MMO's are experimenting with that. But the level system hasn't been successful by luck: it's what many people like.

 

About the urgent haste  with which many players rush through the content, focused on reaching the level cap, I'm gonna say what I mentioned earlier on these forums: the way they do it resembles with sitting at a 5-course meal gobbling everything up just to know what the dessert is, while then being disappointed that it's just a dessert. 

The endgame content isn't the be all and end all, the content of a MMO throughout the levels isn't there to rush by, it's there to enjoy your ingame experience, just like all the courses of a 5-course meal are there for your dining pleasure, and not just the final course.

 You simply couldn't give a decent answer to the choice and example of freedom I gave above which puts the complete thread into a trivial discussion : level up with experience shut down...

Stunning.

It sure will be included in the new launches from Blizzard: give the players the choice if you want to add those levels ... or not (Path of Titans).

Freedom of choice.