Trending Games | Hearthstone | Guild Wars 2 | Rift | Firefall

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,852,287 Users Online:0
Games:733  Posts:6,226,752
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Just what the hell does "dumbed down" even mean anyway?

9 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
180 posts found
  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  3/19/10 8:25:13 PM#1

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/19/10 8:59:54 PM#2
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

I don't know what it means on those games.. Probably refer to the fact that the interfaces became simpler because they have to use a controller?  The controls would definitely be dumbed down.

In terms of MMORPGs though, it refers to the fact that older MMORPGs used to require you to use your head.  For instance, older MMORPGs didn't have minimaps, didn't have arrows taking you straight to where you need to go.  They didn't give you directions all the time, keep you taksed. 

MMORPGs are definitely dumbed down, so much to the point they are no longer fun.  What is next? Will the game play itself?  Maybe a game that plays itself would become more popular than WoW

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2639

3/19/10 9:04:34 PM#3
Originally posted by huge_froglok
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

I don't know what it means on those games.. Probably refer to the fact that the interfaces became simpler because they have to use a controller?  The controls would definitely be dumbed down.

In terms of MMORPGs though, it refers to the fact that older MMORPGs used to require you to use your head.  For instance, older MMORPGs didn't have minimaps, didn't have arrows taking you straight to where you need to go.  They didn't give you directions all the time, keep you taksed. 

MMORPGs are definitely dumbed down, so much to the point they are no longer fun.  What is next? Will the game play itself?  Maybe a game that plays itself would become more popular than WoW


 

Too late for that, theres already several games which have a built in bot that you can program and just let it run itself and do all the work for you. Im not talking about botting programs either, im referring to games that actually come with a bot feature as part of the game play. Ive never even wasted my time with one since, as you said, the game plays itself. wtf is the point of even playing the game when youre not actually playing? funny thing is, id be willing to bet that in thos egames, the people bot their way to the top and then somehow feel some pathetic sense of accomplishment and claim to be better than others at the game, when really all they did was have their bot running longer or more efficiently than everyone else

Anyway to the OP. It's one of those terms that people like to throw around without realizing theyre completely off in its use, and since it sounds cool/catchy to them they like to use it alot and think it makes them sound like they know what theyre talking about and are "too good" for so called dumbed down games. When used in respect to specific game slike you said, which dont have a previous baseline to compare it to, yeah dumbed down is a poor thing to use. Though when putting it in the context of GameX vs similar games of the same genre (or even the same series), it makes a bit more sense.

For example, you mentioned C&C. Now im not saying it has or hasnt been, cause i dont know myself, but someone might be able to argue that the gameplay from the original C&C to C&C3 may have been dumbed down and made easier. Though the opposite may be true, or it could just be that its basically exactly the same, but because most are already familiar with the rest of the series, when a new one comes out in the series it just seems that much easier due to the familiarity.

Id say though that the most common use of it is in MMORPGs as a whole, and also in games such as WoW as an example where you started with a certain type of game, and over time through patches and expansions, the game has morphed into a "dumbed down" or easier version of itself to make it easier for people to master while playing casually. It used to be that to be good at MMORPGs you actually had to invest a lot of time, learn the details, do a lot of exploring and trial and error type stuff. As a whole though the genre has been dumbed down in a sense that a 6 year old can hop on most of them, and within a day or 2 be just as good at the game as someone who has been playing it for a year or 2 because of the design of the games themselves by adding things like giant lit up icons over quest NPC heads, arrows directing you to where you need to go, making an almost useless enemy AI (many games, the mobs might as well just stand sill and do nothing, cause thats about how effective their AI is in battle), and even going so far as to allow auto-run features on maps. By the auto-run im not referring to just running in a specific direction, but in games like RoM you can actually open a map, and pick a spot on a map, or even search in the map for an NPC or mob, or item, and then set yourself to run to the desired location, and the game actually moves your character to that spot on its own without you controlling it yourself. Now granted some feature sthat have been added over the years while maybe slightly dumbing them down have benefits which greatly outweigh the downside, but overall they have just catered to lazier and lazier groups of people to the point where you're basically given an "I win" button and a tour guide to hold your hand and walk you where you need to go.

As far the cross platform & porting goes, its really more just a matter of controller vs controller. You have a lot more buttons with keyboard & mouse than with a standard controller, so in order to play the same game, they usually have to condense actions that might have taken say 5 buttons with a keyboard, to only use 1 button on a controller. Some would call this dumbing down, because it requires less buttons, but IMO, does it really make a difference? Sure there are some exceptions to this depending on the game, but most of them dont take any measure of real "skill" to play/control. so does it really make you any more intelligent or skilled of a player because you have to press 5 buttons instead of 1 to perform the exact same action? I could just program a macro that does the same exact thing (and to you PC only fanatics... dont even try to bullshit and say you and others dont use macros in games), just like condensing it to a Xbox or PS3 controller does. So OK, the developers made the macro for you, instead of you having to program it yourself.... big whoop.

  User Deleted
3/19/10 9:11:16 PM#4

dumbed down:

Usually used by people who are not challenged by something.  More times then not, its when a gamer is migrating from one game to another.

Almost always, its a term used by noobs.  New gamers who havnt yet figured out that nearly all games that fit into specific genre follow the same formula (whether its UI, quests, AI etc.).  This new formula the noob has previously figured out from the game he just migrated from.  Therefore, he/she thinks the game has been "dumbed down" because they no longer feel the challenge they felt when they first entered the particular gaming genre.

Like it or not, games borrow from one another.  You become better at these game aspects.  Nothing is being "dumbed down", your just too dumb to realize you're becoming better at them.

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

3/19/10 9:15:29 PM#5

 Very simple. 

 

For multiplatform games, you can tell when the PC version has been dumbed down. The PC has a lot more potential depth and power than the consoles, and a demographic that can handle a little complexity, but you can easily tell when a game is developed for the PC, and when its just a half baked port from the consoles. They get compared to previous similar games in the genre. 

 

As for MMORPGs, they're compared to the 4 great pioneer MMOs that were far ahead of their time, and innovative, and actually deep complex games. Compared to modern MMOs, they seem dumbed down for the masses, because MMOs have gone from social virtual worlds for RPG gamers, to mass consumption quick fix heavy instanced solo friendly MMOs, with no penalties or depth in the mechanics, like WoW. 

Four pioneer MMOs, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asheron's Call, and Dark Age of Camelot. 

  rscott6666

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 192

3/19/10 9:18:37 PM#6

I agree with you regarding the controllers.  COH used to have 10 bindable keys plus alt and shift making 30 keys you could use, and often you wanted access to 10-20 of them.  CO which is a dumbed down COH, you only need 5 keys to fight.  Not much choice, not much i nthe way to go wrong (combatwise).

But as far as minimaps, for rpgs, i'd let that slide.  The character is supposed to have lived all their life in the world.  The player, not so much.  I view the minimap as the player using the characters knowledge.  You shouldn't need to be an expert in order to play an export.  That was the whole point of rpgs.  The character can do it even if the player can't.

  Toquio3

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/09
Posts: 1105

"Excellent breeze... Great day for cards."

3/19/10 9:19:02 PM#7

I can define dumbed down in 6 words + a symbol:

Deus Ex ---> Deus Ex Invisible War.

I'll give you a hint, the "--->" is the dumbed down part.


If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  Sanisar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 19

3/19/10 9:19:44 PM#8

I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.

I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.

Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.

 

I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.

Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/19/10 9:21:12 PM#9

"Dumbed down" is frequently misused to insult games which simplify their interface without sacrificing game depth.  While doing this is an outright improvement and breaks down barriers to entry, many gamers don't see it that way.

"Dumbed down" is appropriately used when the simplification process actually does harm game depth.

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/19/10 9:24:04 PM#10
Originally posted by Rayx0r

dumbed down:

Usually used by people who are not challenged by something.  More times then not, its when a gamer is migrating from one game to another.

Almost always, its a term used by noobs.  New gamers who havnt yet figured out that nearly all games that fit into specific genre follow the same formula (whether its UI, quests, AI etc.).  This new formula the noob has previously figured out from the game he just migrated from.  Therefore, he/she thinks the game has been "dumbed down" because they no longer feel the challenge they felt when they first entered the particular gaming genre.

Like it or not, games borrow from one another.  You become better at these game aspects.  Nothing is being "dumbed down", your just too dumb to realize you're becoming better at them.

 

Used by noobs? Lol...

Do you really believe that games that let you solo through the whole thing, that show you where to go at all times, that explain everything to you and are constantly in your face (maybe popup messages like some horrible MMORPGs).   Do you think that isn't dumbed down?

If you don't realize they are dumbed down, you just haven't played a non-dumbed down MMORPG (try pre-WoW, the era of non-dumbed down games).

 

Well, your argument would have made some sense, if games were always staying at the same level of skill, or becoming more challenging.  The mere fact that games are growing larger and larger just symbolizes the dumbing down factor.  To say that a current MMORPG is not dumbed down compared to one 10 years ago is to deny reality.

  User Deleted
3/19/10 9:24:11 PM#11

It refers to ease of use. How much does the game hold a new players hand? If your a smart player, or even a dumb player who likes a challenge, this can be very annoying.

How simplified are the game dynamics? Is the chat client simplified? Market designed so you can't make a mistake? Are the combat dynamics designed for people who don't really care much about combat?

Whats the penalty for losing? Are there consequences to failure that encourage you to get it right the first time, or can you just fail over and over again til you manage to get it right and it won't make a difference?

Etc...

  merieke82

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/09
Posts: 171

3/19/10 9:27:59 PM#12

I think the term "dumbed down" is still quite relevant when you're talking about a game being rolled out on multiple platforms at once. If you are in your initial gameplay design process and thinking through how it's going to perform across all systems then you essentially have to cater the game to the "lowest" platform. "Dumbing down" a game can be reducing the amount of player inputs, reducing the amount of content on screen, minimizing the core gameplay code to run well on that lowest platform, and the list goes on.

 

If the company was successful each platform will present a near identical experience, but that doesn't mean the whole thing couldn't have been deeper and more complex if the game design was catered to the "highest" platform. Today it's just not as profitable or safe to create some kind of uber complex mmo that only runs on select systems and that only proficient gamers can understand.

 

So, yes the term "dumbed down" is still completely relevant. The problem is more so the people who are using the term. When a hardcore gamer calls something "dumbed down" he is only justifying to himself that the game is not worth his time and looking for others to validate his skills.

 

In short, it's just someone saying "I've played too many games for this to challenge me."

 

  Toquio3

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/09
Posts: 1105

"Excellent breeze... Great day for cards."

3/19/10 9:29:51 PM#13

And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.

I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.

*Raises glass to arena net*


If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  User Deleted
3/19/10 9:32:15 PM#14
Originally posted by Toquio3

And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.

I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.

*Raises glass to arena net*

 

merchants scrambling for customers in an over saturated or declining market?

  Toquio3

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/09
Posts: 1105

"Excellent breeze... Great day for cards."

3/19/10 9:34:42 PM#15
Originally posted by dhayes68
Originally posted by Toquio3

And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.

I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.

*Raises glass to arena net*

 

merchants scrambling for customers in an over saturated or declining market?

 

Nah, I think it could probably be done right, if developers really wanted to.


If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  Comnitus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 2509

Revenge is a dish best served with mayonnaise and those little cheesy things on sticks.

3/19/10 9:40:06 PM#16

"Dumbed down" generally refers to two things when it comes to MMOs, one of which is good and one of which is not.

  1. Streamlining/coalescence of content, game mechanics, etc. For example, adding a right-click option to crafting multiple items so that you don't get carpal tunnel. Or, a better example, what Blizzard is doing to WoW's stats in Cataclysm - removing unnecessary ones and simplifying (in a good way) talent trees, supposedly making every talent useful in some way. This is not dumbing down, this is improving the game.
  2. Instant gratification/making content more acceptable. This one may be valid, depending on the situation and the severity. Usually, I'm against instant gratification people - I agree you should have to work if you want to earn something - but I disagree that you must work for 23 hours of the day for two months to get one super-epic sword. These are games; we must never forget that. I'll work for my goal, but make it as fun and painless as possible. If a developer decided to make content more accessible by reducing the difficult level or entry requirements, it could be considered "dumbing down", and I have no stance on it. Mainly because I don't care if other people get what I get or not. I'm not selfish or vain, and I'd be perfectly fine with everyone experiencing that awesome, epic fight that the devs obviously worked hard on. What good is it if only 10% of the population actually sees it?

Assassin's Creed is good on PC. The controls aren't crap like other console-to-PC ports, the graphics are stable and nice, and the gameplay is fun. I don't know if it's "smarted up", though.

  User Deleted
3/19/10 9:41:32 PM#17
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.


 

A good example of dumbed down is WOW quest NPC's, where they put a frickin' yellow question mark above the NPC's head.  Heck, it's even on the mini-map.

They've even done a study on this where a group of test apes placed in a computer room were actually able to level in WOW as fast as a test group of an equal number of teenagers.  The game is DUMBED DOWN.

Previous MMO's would make finding the NPC part of the adventure, giving you hints on where to look, so when you found the NPC, you got a minor feeling of having accomplished something.  Gosh, I miss MMO's like early EQ or DAOC; games where you had to think.

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

3/19/10 9:50:58 PM#18
Originally posted by dhayes68
Originally posted by Toquio3

And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.

I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.

*Raises glass to arena net*

 

merchants scrambling for customers in an over saturated or declining market?

Ding ding ding, winner

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  3/19/10 10:00:37 PM#19
Originally posted by Sanisar

I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.

I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.

Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.

You mean something like this:

 

.... um, yeah... no console could ever do that... (except the XBox 360)....

I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.

Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

 

Wow.... I haven't heard anyone outside of the Starcraft community talke aobut Actions per minute.....

Um... Are you by any chance Korean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Ebonyfly

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/09
Posts: 257

3/19/10 10:22:44 PM#20

It's not exactly what I would call dumbing down but I think the interface for PC games can suffer sometimes when a game is also designed for a console at the same time. A good example of this is the hotbar thingy in Oblivion. It only has 8 slots for weapons, spells and abilities. Ideal for a gamepad I guess but as a PC gamer I found it quite restrictive. Of course it is possible to pause the game and select abilities manually but this disrupts the whole flow of the game. So I usually ended up spamming a very limited selection of abilities and my gameplay was, in effect, simplified by the restrictions of the console interface.

While on the subject of Oblivion, many people regard it as a dumbed down version of Morrowind. It certainly has less skill options and the storyline and political setting seemed a lot less sophisticated to me. I guess Bethesda would argue that the skills were just streamlined. I think in many cases 'streamlined' and 'dumbed down' are euphamisms with the same general meaning but a different perspective.

 

9 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search