A lot of people on here support the idea of skillful play being a better mechanic than superior gear/level as a path to success.    In most cases, they are referring to twitch skills, aiming, reacting, etc.    The problem I have with this type of skill play is that as we get old(er), our twitch skills will inevitably slow down.    I'd like to see more games rewarding strategic skills.   

Now, this is not to say that some part of the twitchy skill set does not include strategic skills, such as knowing your enemy and his weaknesses.   But I'd like to see the speed factor taken completely out of the equation.    Perhaps not so slow as a chess match, we are talking video games after all.    But I'd like to see more games where strategic skill is king and twitchy skills only help a wee bit.

I don't know of any MMOs that have this, but I can give some single-player examples.   In a game like Halo, or Half-Life, I can do 'ok' on normal mode; I get through the game, but not without a fair amount of deaths.    I wish for more strategic strategy in games like that.   In a one-on-one game like Starcraft or C&C, almost all matches are played at maximum game speed.   Again, this better rewards the player who can very quickly click icons and map locations.   My preference is to play games like that at the very slowest speed, where I can build up slow, methodical strategies to try to overcome my opponents.

Perhaps MMOs are simply not meant to be played at slower combat speeds.   It doesn't have to be limited to PvP.   Even in PvE, I'd much prefer having superior planning and execution tactics result in successes far more than quickly clicking icons on a powerbar and rotating cooldowns.

Does anyone else want to see this type of skill more rewarded?    Is it even feasible for an MMO to have its combat designed this way and still be successful?

I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind.  Could you give a descriptive example of how you envision this type of combat playing out?

I think there's a lot of people, who prefer slow paced gameplay. Good examples of opposites would be Darkfall and EVE. DF is about twitch and switching spells and abilities quickly, but very little strategy. EVE is about planning and knowing your enemy. Have you tried EVE , by the way? I wouldn't be surprised if most of it's playerbase are 35-45. I don't know any other slow paced, strategy focused MMORPG really. Many players become easily bored, due to the lack of certain type of brain stimulation, that fast paced games offer. Requires patience to play these games and that's what people don't often have, which game developers have noticed as well.

 so basically a turn based rpg, just MMO?

EVE fits the bill. it has bit of twitch in combat phase, especially with smaller ships. otherwise, one who plans, prepares and executes properly, wins.

By the way - the professional chess players play so called speed chess, don't they? When they know the strategic part of the chess so well, they need to play faster to find challenge in the game. So do strategic games always inevitably become fast paced? If you have unlimited amount of time to decide your moves in chess, then of course the faster speed wouldn't help. But - doesn't there come a point when this unlimited time to make a move can be perfected and there is no further challenge in the game? So again, you would need to do speed chess to find a challenge. Of course it don't have to offer challenge, but can it be called a game then, right? Can speed be perfected then? I don't think so, seeing the limitations of being human. There's always someone who is better than others.

So strategic games have to be very in-depth to provide long term challenges for the player. MMORPG's makers don't like to spend too much time polishing their games and difficult to learn, in-depth games don't appeal to people who want to have fun for for short period of time and without stressing their brain too much, which is the majority of today's gamers.

edit - Other examples: speed solving Rubik's cubes, RTS games (always end up click fests when you know the strategic part) etc

Originally posted by arcdevil

 so basically a turn based rpg, just MMO?

No not turn based. It CAN be fast paced or slow depending on what you are flying and for what purpose. And you can learn to pilot as many ships as you can afford in time and gold (isk). It is never what I would call twitch based. You have to make decisions as fast and they are more complex than for eg. DF, but it is more mental - scanning the speed, ammo, CC, etc etc etc and deciding which way to head, what to use, how far out to orbit or not. To JUST understand accuracy of hitting someone see

http://web.archive.org/web/20061123155517/www.eve-online.com/guide/en/eve-tracking101.swf

Some personal examples from very fast to slow:

Lvl 3 missions in a Wolf (assault frigate (advanced type 2 frigate)- switching direction im flying every few seconds to 'speed tank' i.e. to maintain high transversal velocity so i cant be hit much.

Level 3-4 missions in a Hurricane (battlecrusier (a cruiser +)- sending drones one direction, hitting crusiers with guns, and taking out a tower with missiles.

level 4 missions in a Maelstrom (battleship)

Helping a friend with level 2 missions in a Wolf - hitting orbit, attack, orbit atack over and over with the left hand while i text my gf with the right.

Mining in hi security space in a mining barge- warp in, set drones out, set miners on, every minute and a half throwing ore out for a friend to haul off.
 

Helping my friend with level 2 missions in a Hurricane - warping in, setting a direction and slow speed, drawing aggro, going to make a sandwich and a coffee while he kills the frigates in his crusier.

The biggest issue you'll face with any game that focuses on skill is latency..  If you lag, you're dead (end game).  The only way skill based games are fair is if everyone is playing off the same music sheet.  Reminds me of my military days, "we only run as fast as the slowest person".. 

Twitch are the worst when lag is an issue, then strategy skill..  Even WoW that is gear based system has problems when lag is present.  Not sure you'll ever get fair PvP ever.. regardless of the method of play.. All we do is hope to minimize it

I think I agree with the OP although I don't want to see games slowed down to a snail's pace, just a greater emphasis placed on strategy and 'higher' skills such as decision making and tactical awareness.

The main problem as I see it is that group mechanics and AI have not really moved on at all since the days of EQ. Everyone is now thoroughly familiar with those mechanics so the tactical side is rudimentary and emphasis has shifted to gear and dps efficiency.

Originally posted by Kharum

I think there's a lot of people, who prefer slow paced gameplay. Good examples of opposites would be Darkfall and EVE. DF is about twitch and switching spells and abilities quickly, but very little strategy. EVE is about planning and knowing your enemy. Have you tried EVE , by the way? I wouldn't be surprised if most of it's playerbase are 35-45. I don't know any other slow paced, strategy focused MMORPG really. Many players become easily bored, due to the lack of certain type of brain stimulation, that fast paced games offer. Requires patience to play these games and that's what people don't often have, which game developers have noticed as well.

 

I would like to try EVE without space ships. A similar combat system, but in a game like WoW or DAoC, not in space.

Some interesting responses so far.   I have tried Eve, and I found it both refreshing and frustrating at the same time.   In my admittedly limited experience with that game, no one has any interest in a fair fight, they just want to swarm you and mug you like a pack.    I'm not saying that's wrong, per se, just that I have no desire to be on either end of that kind of fight.

A good example for a single-player game would be Thief.   In that game, being spotted by even a single guard could mean your death.   Also, in Far Cry, I enjoyed using stealth approaches to achieve a goal without the enemy even knowing I was there.

Another example would be in Half-Life.   Frequently in that game, I found myself in frenzied firefights.   I've no doubt some players love that sort of thing, but it's not for me.    Essentially, against a limited computer AI, I would love it if were theoretically possible to take out an enemy without taking any damage at all, if the strategy were planned well enough.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Kharum

I think there's a lot of people, who prefer slow paced gameplay. Good examples of opposites would be Darkfall and EVE. DF is about twitch and switching spells and abilities quickly, but very little strategy. EVE is about planning and knowing your enemy. Have you tried EVE , by the way? I wouldn't be surprised if most of it's playerbase are 35-45. I don't know any other slow paced, strategy focused MMORPG really. Many players become easily bored, due to the lack of certain type of brain stimulation, that fast paced games offer. Requires patience to play these games and that's what people don't often have, which game developers have noticed as well.

 

 

I would like to try EVE without space ships. A similar combat system, but in a game like WoW or DAoC, not in space.

Perpetuum is beta right now, you can probably get in. It's Eve with mechs. (No really, they even ripped off the UI and most combat mechanics.)