Trending Games | World of Warcraft | Elder Scrolls Online | Firefall | ArcheAge

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,739,370 Users Online:0
Games:715  Posts:6,177,429
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Means-Based Game Design

2 Pages 1 2 » Search
24 posts found
  SirBenedict

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/23/10
Posts: 5

"What if..."

 
OP  3/17/10 8:23:09 PM#1

What if there were a game about means rather than ends, the experience rather than the completion. It appears to me that "leveling up" "beating the game" or "killing the monster" are not the inherently rewarding components of a game. Take sports as an example. People don't play sports just because they want to win. Rather, they play sports because the mere experience of engaging in them is rewarding on a level far below the abstractions of status and hierarchy. Sipping hot chocolate or smelling a frangrant flower are engaged in because the experiences themselves are rewarding, not because once you've drunk the cocoa you get "cocoa xp" or because you "leveled up your flower-smelling ability." In short, I think that the whole concept of designing games around "success" or "end" should be exchanged for games which focus on the experience of the game or means to its "end".

I think thatGameCompany has adopted this idea in its purest form with its flOw and Flower games. These focus exclusively and very consciously (on the designer's part) on an experience rather than an end. As one review I read put it, flOw and Flower blur the distinction between the "toy" and the "game". These games are about creating feelings in the player directly rather than handing them "medals". Another game which implements this experience-based model is Shadow of the Colossus. I think this game is more about experiencing the colossi than about "beating" them or achieving the "end" of the game. The sights, sounds, and movements are, in themselves, the essence of what makes the game enjoyable. Also, Age of Conan's combat system is a decent example of this. When I engaged in combat in AoC, I never thought for a moment about how much closer the approaching kill would get me to an objective, I enjoyed the act of battle itself. I could be level 60 or level 1 and still get the exact same enjoyment out of it.

Ultimately, what I'm envisioning: a truly huge "game" that is really just the toy-like experience of stepping into another world and being there, "smelling the roses" as it were. Probably the most perfect encapsulation of this idea is the old story of Alexander the Great in which, upon reaching the Himalayas he cried because there were no more worlds to conquer. He didn't care that he had conquered the world, he cared that he could no longer be conquering one.

Here's an excellent article on the subject - in case you haven't had enough of the experience of reading yet ;)

...and while you go indulge your lust for reading about game-design theory, I'm going to have a swig at this Irish-cream type liquor over here... just so I can say I did it, you understand.

lolcatz - ftw

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2609

3/17/10 8:32:27 PM#2
Originally posted by SirBenedict

What if there were a game about means rather than ends, the experience rather than the completion. It appears to me that "leveling up" "beating the game" or "killing the monster" are not the inherently rewarding components of a game. Take sports as an example. People don't play sports just because they want to win. Rather, they play sports because the mere experience of engaging in them is rewarding on a level far below the abstractions of status and hierarchy. Sipping hot chocolate or smelling a frangrant flower are engaged in because the experiences themselves are rewarding, not because once you've drunk the cocoa you get "cocoa xp" or because you "leveled up your flower-smelling ability." In short, I think that the whole concept of designing games around "success" or "end" should be exchanged for games which focus on the experience of the game or means to its "end".

I think Age of Conan's combat system is an example of this. When I engaged in combat in AoC, I never thought for a moment about how much closer the approaching kill would get me to an objective, I enjoyed the act of battle itself. I could be level 60 or level 1 and still get the exact same enjoyment out of it. Another game which I think does the same thing is Shadow of the Colossus. I think this game is more about experiencing the colossi than about "beating" them or achieving the "end" of the game. The sights, sounds, and movements are, in themselves, the essence of what makes the game enjoyable. Finally, I think thatGameCompany has adopted this idea in its purest form with its flOw and Flower games. These focus exclusively and very consciously (on the designer's part) on an experience rather than an end. As one review I read put it, flOw and Flower blur the distinction between the "toy" and the "game". 

Ultimately, that's what I'm envisioning: a truly huge "game" that was really just the toy-like experience of stepping into another world and being there, "smelling the roses" as it were. Probably the most perfect encapsulation of this idea is the old story of Alexander the Great in which, upon reaching the Himalayas he cried because there were no more worlds to conquer.

Here's an excellent article on the subject - in case you haven't had enough of the experience of reading yet ;)

...and while you go indulge your lust for reading about game-design theory, I'm going to have a swig at this Irish-cream type liquor over here... just so I can say I did it, you understand.

Would be great if games were designed more along those lines, but instead 99% of the market insists on trying to clone WoW and giving us more and more of this repetetive boring ass gameplay that consists of tab targeting and pressing your most useful hotkeys. I definitely get more of the feeling youre describing when playing FPS games vs othe rplayers because the fight itself is actually exciting, wether you win or lose. Same goes for single player RPGs where theres some real depth to the game and the story and more innovation behind the combat systems to make them unique instead of the same tired crap weve been using on MMOs for like 10 years and theyve all become about getting to end game and being the highest level with the best gear, not about actual fun & skilled combat.
 

  Drezeks

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/06
Posts: 52

3/17/10 8:46:31 PM#3

But the problem is, for AoC's example is that I HATED the combat system. So when your making a means based game, you really need to make the game exceptional. Not saying AoC's system is bad, and I'm sure a lot hail it as great...but I really never found AoC to be 'means' based at all. I personally felt Vanilla wow was that way, I loved everything about it. Things are different now, but perhaps that is what made WoW so successful, it was fun from the start.

  GreenChaos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/06
Posts: 2274

3/17/10 10:00:10 PM#4


It really depends on the person not the game. I played City of heroes for 5 years and never reached endgame, because I like the process of getter there and creating new characters. But many people rushed to end game, said there was nothing there and quit.

So it really depends more on the player not the game.

What what you really want to talk about is means base game playing not game design. I played WoW for 2 years and never got to end game. When I do hit end game I stop playing the game. For me end game is END GAME.

  Drezeks

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/06
Posts: 52

3/17/10 10:27:05 PM#5

Yea I was just writing and avoiding the point, its a terrible habit I have. My real issue is that because its the player, companies are forced to create games that cater to specific groups of people--most having a hard time doing this.

  Amathe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/02/05
Posts: 1666

3/18/10 8:20:38 AM#6

I think most games would benefit from making the means to its ends a better and more enjoyable experience. But I'm not sure I would enjoy a game without any ends.

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  astoria

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/08
Posts: 1685

3/18/10 3:29:19 PM#7
Originally posted by GreenChaos


It really depends on the person not the game. I played City of heroes for 5 years and never reached endgame, because I like the process of getter there and creating new characters. But many people rushed to end game, said there was nothing there and quit.

So it really depends more on the player not the game.

What what you really want to talk about is means base game playing not game design. I played WoW for 2 years and never got to end game. When I do hit end game I stop playing the game. For me end game is END GAME.


 

I had a similar experience in City of Heroes. I probably have 20 lvl 50s on that game, did some of the same content over and over but it was always so different because of the group or the class because that game has vastly more customizable powers and combos than most class based games. (hell more diverse than some skill based).

Eve is another one. The unusual way of balancing 'bigger is not always better' means you can learn to excel at so many different roles.

"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

3/18/10 7:46:58 PM#8

I think it depends on the person.

In Dark Age of Camelot, I only cared about the journey. I never focused on getting to max level, because I loved just grouping up and dungeon crawling or finding a nice place to xp above ground. The same goes for SWG.

I think it's the community that determines whether to enjoy the journey or the destination. If an overwhelming majority of players concentrate on end game, then that'll either rub off on you, or you'll suffer for not rushing with them. For example, in World of Warcraft, many people enjoy the leveling up experience and running dungeons, yet many people fealt they had to rush to level cap if they were to stay with the large body of people who are also leveling up. This is because if you want to have an easier time finding a group, then you gotta keep up, especially when it comes to raiding. Spots in a good raiding guild can be competitive to get.

In theory, a game where there aren't levels, but only a skill system that allows you to get better by actively participating in the use of that skill (ie. use a sword to get better at swords), would allow you to enjoy the journey. Take Darkfall for example. Imagine if Darkfall, instead of being inhabited by PvP fanatics, was instead inhabited by those who like to roleplay, socialize, and enjoy the journey. You have a community that spends most of their time exploring, building up their city and houses, working on their trades and making money, while warring only with opposing nations (guilds) that occupy land that has much needed resources.

So the problem here is that most of the MMO community care only or almost only for endgame. It certainly would help if a game made every effort to make the journey enjoyable, but the repetitiveness is inevitable in a game that's supposed to last for years. Hack n Slash single player games, such as Diablo are examples of repetitive gameplay that people just enjoy. People enjoy MMO's much the same way, except that MMO's last a lot longer than a Diablo-esque game does, resulting in people complaining about the grind, when they wouldn't if they were playing Diablo. This begs the question of whether or not MMO's should have an ending for those MMO's that revolve around telling a story.

  SirBenedict

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/23/10
Posts: 5

"What if..."

 
OP  3/18/10 8:02:55 PM#9

The point that really comes out and strikes me is that a means-based game design would inherently alienate some while drawing in others. It's the same as in each analogy I gave. Some people like smelling flowers more than others; some people enjoy cocoa more than others; and some people wouldn't touch basketball with a ten foot pole.

However, this begs the question: does one game need to draw in everybody? Football makes a fine living without all the basketball fans, it seems to me, and chocolate companies are buzzing along just fine without the entire planet addictively sucking chocolates 24/7. My point is, if a game really did succeed in providing at least one genuinely, solidly, and inherently satisfying and self-fulfilling activity, then would it not succeed in its purpose as a game more so than the current crop of modern, ends-based games?

The point that means vs. ends is more of a player-side issue than the designer-side issue is also well taken, but I think it is moot, to a large degree, because, ultimately, it is an inherent part of a designer's job to create a game that is not only entertaining when played the right way but also ensures that the players indeed do play it that way. And I don't consider this mere personal speculation. If you refer to Sid Meier's keynote address at the GDC, you will notice a couple of things. First and foremost that he entire talk is about how the game designer needs to take into account the psychology of the gamer, the ultimate inference being that the game designer needs to methodically manipulate the consciousness of the player. Second, and more to the point, is the bit where Meier explains that the game designer needs to prevent the player from engaging in self destructive behavior such as paranoia (I think this is in his principle of "Mutually Assured Destruction"). In short, I think it can be stated the it is Sid Meier's opinion that it is the responsibility of the designer, not the player, to prevent self-destructive game play behaviors and attitudes (such as the "pass go" mentality I am bewailing).

The issue  of player community is very similar to the issue of individual player psychology. In fact, the latter is really an extension of the latter with one caveat: it feeds back. I agree that the community has a tremendous impact in shaping the psychology and behavior of the individual player (any elementary introduction to principles of psychology establishes this), but I disagree, again, with the assumption that the player community "forms itself" out of nothing. I believe that it is, again, the developer's job to shape the community as well as the individual player psychology.

Ultimately, therefore, I think that the design of a means-based game would have to be paired with a careful system for managing player psychology both at the group and individual levels. How to do this would be the subject of a whole other thread... it would be pretty fascinating though... Anyway, for our purposes here, it suffices to say that yes player psychology is essential to shifting focus from the end to the journey, but no this isn't the player's job, it's the developer's. Okay, now that was too long - sorry.\

ps: ohoh, I almost forgot. Here's one of my favorite articles germane to this issue.

pps: I don't want us all to get hung up on AoC. I don't think of it as the ultimate expression of successful gameplay. It has many failings. Instead, get hung up on thatGameCompany. Read about Flower and flOw and most of all, listen to Chen's little acceptance speech at about 40:00 of the GDC Choice Awards. That's really more where I'm coming from. AoC really wasn't that ground breaking, so far as I can see. Flower is.

lolcatz - ftw

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

3/18/10 9:53:02 PM#10

When you're in the business of making money, you give the customer what they ask for. The most vocal of the community, the portion that results in good or bad press, wants gameplay that caters to unhealthy gaming habits. They're people who have unhealthy gaming habits, maybe unhealthy mental and physical states, and no real life ambition. Yet developer's cater to them, because that's where the money is. Most people who are healthy, both mentally and physically, and have real life ambition are not playing video games. Notice I said "most," because there's always the exception and I'm sure our genre has about 1 games worth of that exception.

With the market being as saturated as it is, you have those exceptions spread out over more games. There ARE games out there that focus on the journey, yet those games have low populations and some even close down. The market for the game you speak of just doesn't exist in large part because most online gamers are unhealthy people looking for "non-fun," but addicting gameplay to make them forget their pitiful lives.

You think that a game company can magically wave their wands and make a game that's fun to play as is, but you don't take into consideration that these companies depend on subscriptions to keep going. It's just not possible right now to keep online gamers busy with content for months at a time with the 10's of millions of dollar budgets they're currently operating with. Hell, Bioware's Star Wars must be the most ambitious MMO project to date, spending around $200 million dollars. They're about as close as getting to what you speak of.

I just think that while it's fine to come onto a gaming forum and speculate, or ask philisophical questions that no one can answer without first having doctoral students spend years analyzing the MMO market, the MMO consumers, and the psychology and etc. dealing with it, you need to acknowledge the reality that every developer and player is faced and dealing with.

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1290

We live for The One, we die for The One.

3/19/10 3:46:50 PM#11
Originally posted by nate1980

With the market being as saturated as it is, you have those exceptions spread out over more games. There ARE games out there that focus on the journey, yet those games have low populations and some even close down. The market for the game you speak of just doesn't exist in large part because most online gamers are unhealthy people looking for "non-fun," but addicting gameplay to make them forget their pitiful lives.


 

could you give me few examples of those games pls? because i really cannt think more or less of any such mmorpg

edit: ok, maybe wurm on freedom server and a bit UO

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

3/19/10 4:52:36 PM#12

Games that focus on the journey, to name a few:

1. Saga of Ryzom

2. EvE

3. STO

4. Champions

5. CoX

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2293

3/19/10 5:27:28 PM#13

Right, means based only works if the player can put up with the linear content and finds enjoyment in playing different characters; or the there is no way to achieve an end to the character, like in EVE.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2609

3/19/10 5:46:05 PM#14
Originally posted by mmoguy43

Right, means based only works if the player can put up with the linear content and finds enjoyment in playing different characters; or the there is no way to achieve an end to the character, like in EVE.


 

I would think being completely non-linear would work better for this type of thing, basically a sandbox design with lots of different elements that can be changed constantly with your character to make it advance and have flexibility for different parts of the journey, though not in a linear fashion, more like allowing you access to a larger variety of things, and some slight boosts in power to different things, rather than a typical level grinder where its all about getting to level cap and gearing up.

Ryzom comes to mind when i think of this, because youve basically got a whole bunch of small parts that you can combine the way you want to make up different skills for everything from attacks, spells, crafting, and gathering, and alter those skills anyway you please throughout the game for things like increased damage, range, aoe, duration, etc but while balancing it by also increasing the costs of the different parts (HP/Stamina costs and stuff). You do gain access to some bigger and better things as you progress in leveling up the different skill branches (fighting, magic, crafting, gathering, etc), but youre not trying to rush through to get max level and automatically increasing your power by massive leaps like in WoW type games.

  A-L-S-E

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/10
Posts: 114

"Brilliant."

3/19/10 6:07:22 PM#15
Originally posted by Drezeks

But the problem is, for AoC's example is that I HATED the combat system. So when your making a means based game, you really need to make the game exceptional. Not saying AoC's system is bad, and I'm sure a lot hail it as great...but I really never found AoC to be 'means' based at all. I personally felt Vanilla wow was that way, I loved everything about it. Things are different now, but perhaps that is what made WoW so successful, it was fun from the start.

 

Vanilla WoW was certainly a better experience, before everything went... Just plain bad.

  A-L-S-E

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/10
Posts: 114

"Brilliant."

3/19/10 6:14:25 PM#16

I would personally want a game that focuses on means, but have rewarding, satisfying ends as well. That way the entire experience just clicks. Rather than pushing the player to reach a high level, or to work to get gear (World of Warcraft, anyone?) developers need to find new ways to make the paths leading to those rewards diverse and interesting. Rather than just "questing" or (the primary source of boredom) "grinding" to meet a goal. Grinding means doing the same repetitious thing over and over, and I would like to know how exactly developers thought that was a good idea to do for every aspect of the game.

 

You want cool gear? Get your ass to level X and work for it. How do you do that? Do the three quest types; kill this, get that, go here. Repeat with lynx paws, goat bladders, and blood elf spleens for hours on end. There, twenty quests down and you only have forty more levels to go.

You want to craft something awesome? Craft this useless crap for 250 skill levels and spend this much gold.

You want gold, too, you say?? Don't get my started.

 

It's just not fun to me. Grind CAN be good if the task you're doing is fun, but working my ass off to make a level rise by 1 every hour or so does not sound fun to me.

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

3/19/10 6:42:17 PM#17

Like some have already said: It's not the game, its the player. Its all an illusion. When you see past it - there's nothing to "experience". When it becomes familiar - it becomes less exciting.

All I see in Eve is different colored sky-boxes. I see no "universe". After a while in AoC, the melee becomes a button mash just like any other game. You can't keep that feeling forever and it is foolish to demand it from games.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  midmagic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/09
Posts: 617

3/19/10 8:35:41 PM#18
Originally posted by Quirhid

Like some have already said: It's not the game, its the player. Its all an illusion. When you see past it - there's nothing to "experience". When it becomes familiar - it becomes less exciting.

All I see in Eve is different colored sky-boxes. I see no "universe". After a while in AoC, the melee becomes a button mash just like any other game. You can't keep that feeling forever and it is foolish to demand it from games.

 

It is not just a familiarity problem. Most games become refined as the content updates and expansions come out to make content and balancing easier. The game often loses any sort of special feeling due to the refinement that occurs.

Often times they become less inspired as time goes on. Part of this is due to the brains leaving for other projects. Part of this is due to shrinking the size of the support team post release.

Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  Interesting

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 959

3/19/10 8:45:06 PM#19

Sorry, but....

 

In a means-based game design, how would the developers scam people with their abusive cash shops?

 

Because 99% of the money spent on cash shops are destined to acquire power in-game, thus the end-based game design.

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/19/10 9:08:40 PM#20
Originally posted by SirBenedict

What if there were a game about means rather than ends, the experience rather than the completion. It appears to me that "leveling up" "beating the game" or "killing the monster" are not the inherently rewarding components of a game. Take sports as an example. People don't play sports just because they want to win. Rather, they play sports because the mere experience of engaging in them is rewarding on a level far below the abstractions of status and hierarchy. Sipping hot chocolate or smelling a frangrant flower are engaged in because the experiences themselves are rewarding, not because once you've drunk the cocoa you get "cocoa xp" or because you "leveled up your flower-smelling ability." In short, I think that the whole concept of designing games around "success" or "end" should be exchanged for games which focus on the experience of the game or means to its "end".


 

Leveling up is rewarding, if you leveled up in an MMORPG that was actually challenging and required skill/effort to level up.  Of course, if you were playing WoW, I guess it wouldn't be very rewarding.

Know what else is rewarding? World PvP.  


Too bad these sugarcoated MMORPGs don't expose players to things that make the game fun.  They've taken them out to protect you, and now all you are left with is a dull and shitty experience, and lifeless game.  

It's funny because you guys don't seem to know why MMORPGs have suddenly started sucking, and think there needs to be some major change to them.  

The only change that is needed is to revert to the older style MMORPGs that made the game challenging, painful, etc. 

World PvE, World PvP, Death Penalties.  Guild vs Guild or Faction vs Factions is probably the most fun thing that comes out of an MMORPG, yet it is not present in current MMORPGs because they've sugarcoated it and put it in an Arena system where you don't lose experience, and you basically compete over items to buy in a gearshop.  

Well, now you know why MMORPGs are garbage.  Catering to those players who didn't want any features that cause discomfort is what has been ruining MMORPGs.

2 Pages 1 2 » Search