When playing the first "party-based" CRPGs you had following options when a party member died:

1. go to the nearest temple and have your party member revived, but with a fee and the raised faced a permanent constitution decrease by a few points
2. have someone in your party that can raise dead. The raised would have permanently lost a few points of constitution

In later games the death penalty was softened (only a fee if no party member could revive dead party members).

In MMORPGs you just respawn somewhere and have your equipment damaged. In some PvP MMORPGs you may end up loosing part of your equipment, because someone looted your corpse.

A death penalty has to fit the theme of the game. A lot of MMORPGS have a big focus on combat. Most quests depend on combat at some point to be solved (e.g. gather some monster intestines or kill x monsters of a certain species). In games like this there is no sense enforcing a harsh death penalty. If you die too often it's frustrating, and there's no other way to solve quests or get a certain item.

A harsh death penalty only makes sense in games with more freedom. There need be several ways to "solve" a quest, because you as player need to decide if it's worth to spend the resources for a tough fight or if to go the sly route and try some trick or another to "solve" the quest. And as soon as a fight goes south then it must be possible to run away or surrender. MMORPGs lack in this aspect. 

Originally posted by Rockgod99 

A DP does one thing makes you cautious.

Due to this the game takes on a whole new feeling.

Kinda like leveling on a pvp server in wow.  Its a totally different experience and some people enjoy this.

So what's the problem? why can't different types of people play by different types of rule sets?

You people seem to be 100% against harsh death penalty for yourselves and 100% against anyone having access to them also.

I am not against diversity in games, to each his own.

My problem is, not only are there very few games with death penalties similar to what used to exist in EQ, the older games are getting rid of what penalties they did have. In EQ you can now pay NPC's a trivial sum to summon and rezz your corpse. In EQII they completely did away with shards.

Originally posted by Rockgod99 

A DP does one thing makes you cautious.

Due to this the game takes on a whole new feeling.

Kinda like leveling on a pvp server in wow.  Its a totally different experience and some people enjoy this.

So what's the problem? why can't different types of people play by different types of rule sets?

You people seem to be 100% against harsh death penalty for yourselves and 100% against anyone having access to them also.

 

Personally, it is the 'chance of failure' that makes me cautious in a game.  I hate failing so I will try to prepare myself as much as I can before I attempt a serious challenge.  I guess people who do not hate failing need an extra motivator in death penalties to make them want to do challenging content properly. 

My main beef with the pro-DP people is that they seem to want to impose their idea of harsh death penalties on everyone else and not just themselves.  They seem to lack the willpower and conviction to impose them on themselves unless a game makes them do so.  They also seem to want to have a harsh death penalty in every MMORPG out there and have contempt for those who don't.

We can argue about this all we want, but I have a feeling that nostalgia is once again rearing its ugly head. "We" like harsh death penalties because the first MMOs had them, and, thus, they are familiar; they feel "right". This reasoning won't hold in a discussion, so we try to throw arguments like "it increases the risk factor!" and "why play a game if you don't want to be whipped and mutilated each time you die?" I believe it's called masochism to experience pleasure through pain; why fight so hard for harsh death penalties if they don't please us?

There needs to be repercussions, of course. In single-player RPGs, this is most likely a matter of reloading from the last save point, which can either be a very weak or a very harsh penalty, depending on how much progress you've lost. Single-player RPGs are not persistent worlds, so in an MMO, which is a persistent world, why should we also lose progress? This is why I'm against experience loss upon death most of all. I spent the last hour getting that level, and you can't hit pause and shift back the clock an hour just because a mob sneaked up on me and killed me while I was AFK for 2 minutes. That's how I feel, anyways.

Other death penalties which may be considered "harsh", like full-loot or heavy stat loss, I can deal with. Full-loot punishes you after your death economically because you have to recoup the items you lost. Stat loss punishes you performance-wise because you will struggle to play effectively. Of the two, I prefer economic loss. If the stat loss is not too harsh, i.e. it doesn't render you completely useless for X amount of time, then that's okay, too. The point is, I want to play the game. If I can only play at 25% of my power for X amount of time, that sucks. I'd rather spend that time making money to replace my economic loss.

Like single-player games, economic loss is also scalable. If you only fly what you can afford to lose (anyone who plays the game knows this rule), your losses shouldn't be too harsh. However, if there's a lapse of judgment or unfortunate circumstances and you happen to lose a lot, that may cause you to curse and scream and RAAAAAGH I HATE THIS GAME, BUT I CAN'T STOP PLAYING! Similarly, if you saved 2 minutes before you died in a single-player RPG, you won't cry as much as if you had saved an hour ago.

There needs to be some insurance system so that people can feel it's at least semi-safe to bring their best equipment out to a fight. Either that, or it needs to be fairly easy to obtain that best equipment. In any case, you don't want noobs fighting with starter swords and underpants because they're afraid to lose their gear.

Originally posted by Torik

My main beef with the pro-DP people is that they seem to want to impose their idea of harsh death penalties on everyone else and not just themselves.  They seem to lack the willpower and conviction to impose them on themselves unless a game makes them do so.  They also seem to want to have a harsh death penalty in every MMORPG out there and have contempt for those who don't.

We cannot impose them on anyone; and I haven't seen many of us pro-death penalty types saying that ALL games have to be that way...but right now there are very very few games with any significant penalty at all.

Just as I think there is more than enough niche room for both "themepark" and "sandbox" games, I'd like to see some games out there with nastier death penalties and "harder" overall game-play.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Rockgod99 

A DP does one thing makes you cautious.

Due to this the game takes on a whole new feeling.

Kinda like leveling on a pvp server in wow.  Its a totally different experience and some people enjoy this.

So what's the problem? why can't different types of people play by different types of rule sets?

You people seem to be 100% against harsh death penalty for yourselves and 100% against anyone having access to them also.

 

 

Personally, it is the 'chance of failure' that makes me cautious in a game.  I hate failing so I will try to prepare myself as much as I can before I attempt a serious challenge.  I guess people who do not hate failing need an extra motivator in death penalties to make them want to do challenging content properly. 

 

My main beef with the pro-DP people is that they seem to want to impose their idea of harsh death penalties on everyone else and not just themselves.  They seem to lack the willpower and conviction to impose them on themselves unless a game makes them do so.  They also seem to want to have a harsh death penalty in every MMORPG out there and have contempt for those who don't.

I wouldn't worry about it. The majority of the market does not want harsh DP and few developers are going to adopt it. I have no problem with some niche games with high death penalty that i am going to ignore. The bulk of the market is going exactly where my preference is.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by Anthur

@OP You should play some poker with real money and then only using chips without any real value backing them up. Rules are the same. But I assure you the game and how you play will be completely different.

 

 

exactly. to me it sounds like most people would play a game like god of war 3 if "cheat mode" was enabled where you had infinite life. maybe thats where all games are going now, since apparently fun >everything else and dying/losing is not fun they should remove the chances of dying or losing.

god of war ... give players infinite health
Call of Duty ... infinite health and infinite ammo
Madden (or any other sports games) if the computer scores the player gets the equal amount of points
Mario ... why should enemies kill you, "star" mode all the way through the game.

 

how fun would games be if there was no chance of losing! yay A.D.D. power!

 

I will repeat

HARSH DP DOESNT MAKE THE GAME HARDER!!!

The Difficulty of the challenge makes the reward seem more rewarding. Not the frustration of the DP.

define and quantify "harder".

Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.. I used to play games where after dying you would lose stat points , skill levels , be looted by whatever killed you and if you were ate by a lair then you would be sent to the Underworld and your loot would drop wherever you died.

So you had to use a stat potion to regain stats , use your skills to regain your skill levels , return to where you died hoping that you wont have to clear an entire dungeon level to find your gear and to get out of the underworld you would have to do quests for your organs.

If I wanna define death in MMORPGs then I must first define life in MMORPGs

I must earn exp in my MMORPG life then when I die,naturally I will lose EXP

if I earn skillpoints statpoints in my MMORPG life,when I die I should lose some.

If I am craftsman ,businesman etc I will lose wealth.

and so on.

i can't even conceive how boring EVE would be without death penalty. I am really glad a lot of people do not agree with you OP.

Originally posted by SlyLoK

Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.

 

no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?

how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?

no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"

and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.

While you find a harsh  DP system frustrating someone else is gonna look at it like, man i really gonna watch it in this game thats awesome. Then another person is gonna come along an find it is hard rather than frustrating, some will like it some wont

Everyone is gonna act dffierent towards it an guess what THATs OK!  The  fact that we have games that have a harsh DP a not so harsh an no DP at all is great, this gives people options.

I for one  like EQ old DP system, maybe becuase its my first MMO i dont know but thats what i like

 Exp loss wasnt that bad..could sting alittle in a hell lvl but all you do is exp anyways you will get it back . Might slow down progession but that is just fine with me

Corpse Runs were your choice on how hard you wanted them to be.The people that had any thought they might not get back a corpse right away stayed out of certain places was very simple.You were never forced to go anywhere, each lvl bracket had more than enough places to exp for your play style.This system really let you play with people you wanted.

After reading the OP's first post and title, I'm not sure what this topic is about. They are against harsh DP judging from the title, but his post goes on to say why it doesn't make a game hard >.>

But I am in favor of a harsh DP. Not lose all your items harsh, but EXP debt, durability hit, stats temporarily reduced harsh. If there was no harsh penalty, then the player wouldn't care to die, ruining the immersion. If there was a harsh DP, it will get players to help each other for greater challenges, making a better community, and once a hard challenge is complete, makes the challenge that much more meaningful.

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by SlyLoK

Most people that want a harsh death penalty have never experienced such.

 

 

no most just want the easy button, the dumbed down gameplay of WoW with a different skin. where death is just a port home for a charge (repairing your gear). how many times have you heard in a dungeon "oh im just going to suicide out" ... think you heard that in a EQ1?

how many times has a ranger or huntard decided the tank wasn't pulling fast enough and decided to agro another mob. think that happened in EQ1 or a game with harsh DP? ever had a group say "alright guys watch your AOEs" and someone in the group who is trying to show off their uber damage ... does it anyway? think that happened in a game with harsh DP?

 

no ... because you had to play smart, something gamers now a days aren't use too ... "what you mean i can't just faceroll and succeed?!? omg WTF!"

and yes it does make the game harder and it makes people better. its funny how many times this happens to me. im in a group and one person doesn't know how to play at all ... the majority of the time their first MMO is WoW. where as if you're in a group and someone who knows his class and knows their role and executes their role their first MMO is EQ1 or some other game with a harsh DP.

I guess there isnt a single person that can read and comprehend on these boards.

EQ1 had a sissy death penalty compared to the games I played long ago. Corpse retrieval where all of your items remained on your corpse was not hard.. Having to go back and kill the same mobs that killed you just to get your equipment off of them is another story.

Like I said.. People that want a harsh penalty have never experience a harsh death penalty.

 The harsher death penalties are not there to debilitate players, drive players away, or increase difficulty.  The initial idea was to give players that edge, and rather than run about the game carelessly, the player has to think, plan, and react to a situation that could potentially cost them.  I know playing older games like UO , the DP did not serve to keep me from doing everything in the game, it added that edge and that caution that make you think and dive deeper into the game. It also especially in earlier UO alleviated this issue with super uber killer big pimp weapons and players running around ganking other players.  If you ran around in your best armor and got killed by a handful of under rigged characters that planned better, they took your stuff and you lost it. People used the best gear and items without depending on these super rare grind to get items, and a players skill level thinking, planning, and sometimes just realizing that the fight is more than you can handle was what mattered. Try a game with a good solid death penalty, and you quickly realise that a death penatly like WoW where you lose some gold on repairs and have to travel back to the mob (if you care to kill it) just dont carry the same weight.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Harsh Death Penalty makes games frustrating, not hard.
Harsh Death Penalty doesn’t make a game Harder. Gameplay is what makes a game hard or not.
I find the argument that Harsh Death Penalty is needed in a game to make it hard illogical.
You can even use a truth-table to realize that that is an invalid argument.

p=harsh DP q= harder

p-->q     invalid arguement

Iam going to use the game “Demon Soul” for my first explanation.

For many people, Demon Soul is believed to be hard because of its harsh death penalty. But in truth the harsh DP only adds frustration to the game.

To better understand what I mean. For a moment, let’s imagine that Demon Soul had a lesser death penalty, but 100% the same gameplay. (You know longer lose 100% all your soul, but the soul you collected from the mission alone)

Would the game be harder? The game play stayed the same, (buggy controls and lock on, and the Animation locks all still there)

The gameplay didn’t change, but the frustration lessened. So how does DP regulate the difficulty lvls of a game?
-----------------------------------------------

Another example more down to earth.

Many people believe World of Warcraft is the EazyMode of the MMORPG genre.

Well what if we added a EXTREME DEATH PENALTY to the game and kept the gameplay the same as it once was.
(Lets add Permanent Death to characters, and if you die 3 times on a single account, it gets locked and closed)
Now with the same gameplay currently in WoW, with this added Death Penalty, would the game be harder?
 

I can still solo mobs and such right? So how did making the DP extremely harsh, make the game harder? Only thing it added was frustration. See what I mean yet?

I play games to have fun, and relax, not to be frustrated to death.
 

If WoW had the kind of DP used in my example, people then would never explore or try new things outside of what is considered the normal.

Harsh Death Penalty scares off players in PvP gameplay. With that kind of DP, who would participate in World PvP if you have a high chance of your character being deleted and forced to start a new character over from lvl 1? Yes I know iam going to the extreme on my explanation. Most MMOs don’t use DP as harsh as this, but my point still remains valid.
 

Harsh DP doesn’t add difficulty. It only adds Frustration!! It scares off players to try new things and explore. It reduces the epicness of Large Scale PvP populations from what it could potentially have been.

---------------------------------------

I really dislike the current way Harsh DP is used as a gimmick to control players. That’s all it is. A gimmick to ether slow player progression to a crawl or to scare player with the “join a team or die” mind set.

Nothing but a lame ways of control. I don’t mind gold sinks for DP to control economy, but when used to control gameplay, that’s a whole different ballpark.

Hmmm well I'm going to take a bit of a risk here, but what the hey. My advice is that you shouldn't play games with a harsh death penalty. There are plenty As long as you're not entering established games which do have one, and then whining about changing the gameplay to suit yourself, regardless of the existing players who like it just fine as it is, I can't see how anyone would have a problem with that.

Originally posted by AlysenMinase

After reading the OP's first post and title, I'm not sure what this topic is about. They are against harsh DP judging from the title, but his post goes on to say why it doesn't make a game hard >.>

But I am in favor of a harsh DP. Not lose all your items harsh, but EXP debt, durability hit, stats temporarily reduced harsh. If there was no harsh penalty, then the player wouldn't care to die, ruining the immersion. If there was a harsh DP, it will get players to help each other for greater challenges, making a better community, and once a hard challenge is complete, makes the challenge that much more meaningful.

hardcore

DP, harsh or not, is more related to the type of MMO you play. In a game like DFO it isn't such a big deal if you lose your stuff, because it's craftable and it can be replaced easily.  In a game like WoW you can't implement something like gear loss or deleveling upon death, because it's raid focused. Would be stupid to make 24 ppl wait for you because you have to get back your max lvl back. So in the end it all depends on the type of game, you can't have the same DP in all of them.

A death penalty is the difference between risk vs reward and repetition versus reward. It makes you care about lots of things you won't care much about without one, and believe it or not, that makes the game fun.

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

DP, harsh or not, is more related to the type of MMO you play. In a game like DFO it isn't such a big deal if you lose your stuff, because it's craftable and it can be replaced easily.  In a game like WoW you can't implement something like gear loss or deleveling upon death, because it's raid focused. Would be stupid to make 24 ppl wait for you because you have to get back your max lvl back. So in the end it all depends on the type of game, you can't have the same DP in all of them.

well you right, but what defines <harsh> is different for each game in their own unique way. Which is what you said.

But in some games they do have harsh DP. In DF the gear is easy to get, so the lost of it isnt harsh. (yes in another game like WoW, gear lost is harsh but those same penalties dont share the same effect)

But my point is that Harsh DP doesnt make gameplay harder. DP effects you after death, not during gameplay as I pointed out in the OP.

many people argue that harsh DP makes the gameplay more challenging and difficult. But thats not true. Since DP is after death, not during gameplay.

In my example from the OP with WoW. How would that extreme DP make fighting Van in Deadmines as a lvl 80 any harder? it doesnt. What about for a lvl 20? Again it doesnt make anything harder.

It only controls. Slows game play progression. Slows to the crawl as I put it.

Now player have to take there time and be more cautious. That doesnt mean the game got harder though. see what I mean yet?