Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Phry

You don't appear to like CCP very much, but regardless of that, your arguments are neither accurate nor conclusive, CCP's activities have no doubt disrupted RMT traders, and unfortunately a good few players who have used their services have obviously suffered as a consequence, but dont mix up game mechanics with scam techniques, the meta gaming aspect of Eve is part of the game, its not just a game after all where you have to repeatedly swing a sword at a goblin etc...  about the only statement you made that is any way accurate, is the bit where you said, CCP has done a great job.. though i'd say overall rather than just since 2007.. 

 

I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming.  I was talking about contracts, etc.  Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense.  I have not made any inaccurate statements.  If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.

It is not a case of not liking CCP.  I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats.  Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game.  They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.

My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it).  It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage.  They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc.  It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:

1)  Flag the salvager.

2)  Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship.  Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.

Other than that, it has always been a fun game.

I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...

The facts are some players don't want to face the truth. CCP created plex to muscle in on the RMT business and get a slice of the action themselves. The side effect is however that the gold sellers have all under cut them and now you can get plex from them cheaper than buying it from CCP. Sure CCP still sells them for the same ammount however it's backfired and caused a massive proliferation of botting and purchases from gold sellers against the eula.

In short CCP has bit off more than they could chew and started a price war that they can't possibly hope to win and now they're crying about it.

No one is saying plex is bad for the player or that EVE is a bad game, people are just saying that CCP is full of BS when they talk about stopping RMT. It's just alot of the playerbase in this game with such a steep learning curve for some reason have a difficulty understanding these few simple and obvious facts.

I guess CCP havent been to Nakugard icebelt recently then and seen all the mackinaws there and what not, but luckily there is some of us who have suicide alts to jump in there and blow up a few macks before concords come.

 I don't believe CCP should be held up as the poster child for the fight against third-party RMT as they have a much stronger incentive to stamp out third-party RMT than other games .  Third-party RMT in EVE is in direct competition with CCP's own RMT system .  

Originally posted by wootin

CCP's answer to the problems of isk farming affecting the game's economy was....(drum roll) take it over themselves via Plex, thereby getting their own players to farm the isk that gets swapped for the GTCs bought from CCP.

I can't even think of a word to describe that kind of strategy from a company towards their own players. Machiavellian might be close enough for horseshoes, though.

 

 

 

I disagree that there's a negative connotation here, though perhaps that just makes me a bit Machiavellian.  CCP's strategy is just the logical outgrowth of a rationalist approach to dealing with the problem.

For example - author Larry Niven described a similar solution to corruption in his description of the Birthright Lotteries in his Known Space milieu, a fascinating SF topic in itself.  To stop people trying to bribe officials to obtain Birthrights, the Birthrights were simply also put up for sale at a very high price.

More abstractly, when a legitimate and functionally similar means to satisfy a demand is provided, any illegitimate market satisfying that demand tends to wither.

How dare CCP allow players to play for free by paying for game time with ISK. Such greed...

All coins have two sides. They could've just sold ISK and be done with it, but they didnt.

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Originally posted by Agricola1

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Originally posted by Pala

Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know.  Buying characters has been going on for a while.
You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account

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Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?

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Well I think the PLEX are interesting. I was thinking of buying some PLEX from CCP so I could sell them in-game, so that I could buy Augmentations along with the secondary learning skills - would help a lot, and would end up being maybe 70 million ISK.

I don't see why it's terrible - there have been many arguments that pot should be legalised and texed by the government rather than its current illegal way of trade, since its effects are about the same as alcohol or smoking anyway (and those are still legal).

CCP cutting out the evil middle man is a good thing in my eyes - but then again, "My color is white", valuing order and lawfulness and other well structured things. I prefer CCP to be profiting from players' needs rather than some Chinese sweatshop owner (no great racist offense meant, just refering to the steriotype).

Originally posted by Toquio3

How dare CCP allow players to play for free by paying for game time with ISK. Such greed...

All coins have two sides. They could've just sold ISK and be done with it, but they didnt.

They do.  You have to buy the GTC's from their authorized sellers and then you sell them to players for ISK.  So CCP is selling ISK.  I personally have no problem with gold sellers in any game.  If games want to remove the game sellers then remove the need for gold grind.  If they refuse to do this then some times spending cash is more reasonable than spending my time.  While ISK sellers might be cheaper they are not safer than using CCP.  So buy ISK through CCP and you have no fear.  They even have forums for selling the GTC cards themselves.  So you do not have to use the contract system in the game.

Apparently nobody in here has heard of conflict of interest.

They make money off the whole scheme.

Companies don't shoot themselves in the foot.

It adds to their bottom line.

they would not try to remove something that makes them dollars.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Toquio3

How dare CCP allow players to play for free by paying for game time with ISK. Such greed...

All coins have two sides. They could've just sold ISK and be done with it, but they didnt.

 

They do.  You have to buy the GTC's from their authorized sellers and then you sell them to players for ISK.  So CCP is selling ISK. 

No, CCP are only selling game time. That's a pretty big difference from CCP's point of view. It may not seem like a huge difference to you as a player, but the implications for effects on gameplay are completely different.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Toquio3

How dare CCP allow players to play for free by paying for game time with ISK. Such greed...

All coins have two sides. They could've just sold ISK and be done with it, but they didnt.

 

They do.  You have to buy the GTC's from their authorized sellers and then you sell them to players for ISK.  So CCP is selling ISK. 

 

No, CCP are only selling game time. That's a pretty big difference from CCP's point of view. It may not seem like a huge difference to you as a player, but the implications for effects on gameplay are completely different.

CCP has always been in the "game time" business. The only thing that has changed is how the game time is delivered. The only people that are in the RMT business, or ISK farmers and the people (loser’s) that use them.

i hope more players start to buy PLEX in order to get the price up and hurt RMT business my hope is to get 1 PLEX at 350m

Originally posted by qazyman

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Toquio3

How dare CCP allow players to play for free by paying for game time with ISK. Such greed...

All coins have two sides. They could've just sold ISK and be done with it, but they didnt.

 

They do.  You have to buy the GTC's from their authorized sellers and then you sell them to players for ISK.  So CCP is selling ISK. 

 

No, CCP are only selling game time. That's a pretty big difference from CCP's point of view. It may not seem like a huge difference to you as a player, but the implications for effects on gameplay are completely different.

 

CCP has always been in the "game time" business. The only thing that has changed is how the game time is delivered. The only people that are in the RMT business, or ISK farmers and the people (loser’s) that use them.

PLEX was introduced to make the sale of EVE Gametime Codes to other players for ISK much more user friendly . http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=603 . "  We felt it was time to move forward with it--do another iteration to make it much easier and accessible exchange ISK for game time " . Real Money is being Traded with CCP for a virtual item that has the intended purpose of being sold to another player for virtual money . CCP provide the item ( PLEX ) & the means by which it is to be sold ingame . The only step in the trade of real money for virtual money that CCP doesn't directly involve itself in is the setting of a market price for the virtual item . To say that CCP is not involved in the RMT business is to say that , the means ( by which the trade takes place ) justify the ends ( virtual items/currency is bought with real money ) . 

It probably all comes down to our personal interpretation of what RMT is . Whether we agree or disagree that the trade in PLEX constitutes RMT is of little importance . What is important is whether it is good for the game ? If you judge player satisfaction by increasing subscription numbers , be they alt accounts or new players , then the answer would be yes . 

Originally posted by Nozzie 

 Real Money is being Traded with CCP for a virtual item that has the intended purpose of being sold to another player for virtual money . CCP provide the item ( PLEX ) & the means by which it is to be sold ingame . The only step in the trade of real money for virtual money that CCP doesn't directly involve itself in is the setting of a market price for the virtual item . To say that CCP is not involved in the RMT business is to say that , the means ( by which the trade takes place ) justify the ends ( virtual items/currency is bought with real money ) . 

 

Not really. A game client and the subscription that goes with it is not a virtual item, and this is all they are selling. Many players then create virtual items that can used as currency or subscription time.

The only issue as it relates to this tread is why?

All business, gaming or pet groomers, are involved in real money transfers. It's how they make money. This doesn't mean they are in the RMT business.

It has nothing to do with the end justifying the means, it's about who has the right to profit from the game. Whether GTC exist or not, RTM's are still the same parasite on the companies client and companies still have the right to sell their game time any way they choose.

CCP has always fought RMT's in their game, and I have know several players that have had their wallets emptied over the years. Shortly after plex was released, you begin to see them going after the RMT directly, then Unholy Rage hit.

It's pretty clear to anyone that cares that CCP in not in the RMT business but in the MMO business, and these are the steps they have taken to combat the problem.

Originally posted by birdycephon

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Good thing they removed that ridiculous Spiider post or this thread would end up a rebuttal of those absurd ideas.

Anyone thinking that the RMT providers don't engage in illicit activities should ask the holders of all those hacked accounts in Wow.

I think CCP has a better handle on this problem than most developers.  Take Aion for example, it is still filled with bots despite NCSoft's claims.

Eve is particularly sensitive to this because the entire economy is based on player input.

 

Despite what they want you to believe, EVE is still filled with bots.

Not nearly as much as it once was. Unlike NCsofts Aion, CCP actually dedicates time and resources to dealing with botters and other such scum.

Originally posted by qazyman

Originally posted by Nozzie 

 Real Money is being Traded with CCP for a virtual item that has the intended purpose of being sold to another player for virtual money . CCP provide the item ( PLEX ) & the means by which it is to be sold ingame . The only step in the trade of real money for virtual money that CCP doesn't directly involve itself in is the setting of a market price for the virtual item . To say that CCP is not involved in the RMT business is to say that , the means ( by which the trade takes place ) justify the ends ( virtual items/currency is bought with real money ) . 

 

Not really. A game client and the subscription that goes with it is not a virtual item, and this is all they are selling. Many players then create virtual items that can used as currency or subscription time.

The only issue as it relates to this tread is why?

All business, gaming or pet groomers, are involved in real money transfers. It's how they make money. This doesn't mean they are in the RMT business.

It has nothing to do with the end justifying the means, it's about who has the right to profit from the game. Whether GTC exist or not, RTM's are still the same parasite on the companies client and companies still have the right to sell their game time any way they choose.

CCP has always fought RMT's in their game, and I have know several players that have had their wallets emptied over the years. Shortly after plex was released, you begin to see them going after the RMT directly, then Unholy Rage hit.

It's pretty clear to anyone that cares that CCP in not in the RMT business but in the MMO business, and these are the steps they have taken to combat the problem.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree . But I think there is one thing that we can both agree on . It is much better to have  the money going to CCP , who will invest the money back into the industry , than have it going to a goldfarmer who is leaching of CCP's labour . I have never bought from a goldfarmer & I never will . 

I'm calling BS on this.  Eve is a game where the developers facilitate RMT, as long as they are the ones receiving the real money.  This is a game where in-game currency  takes the place of XP in other games.  It is the only reward, and the only incentive to engage in combat, mine or run missions.  Of course you can buy game time from CCP and sell it to other players for in-game currency.  It's just like buying gold in any other game, except that you give the money to CCP instead of some gold selling service.  It is, IMO the biggest flaw in the game.  They only want to stop traditional RMT sales because it cuts in to their own efforts to do the same thing.

Originally posted by Salvatoris

  They only want to stop traditional RMT sales

WOW.....I think you figured it out ROFL