I agree with the OP. It's almost as if each new game that comes out that's a clone of WoW allows itself to do one, maybe two things differently.

Saying that, WoW is a clone of EQ. Blizz took the parts of EQ that people loved and got rid of or simplified the parts of EQ that people hate. Also keep in mind the lead devs on vanilla WoW were devs of EQ prior to that, Tigol and Foror if I'm not mistaken. They have many items named after them, the most famous from vanilla WoW being Foror's Compendium of Dragonslaying.

Anyway, if people did what Blizz did when they developed WoW and refine and expand on the things people like, then maybe we'd have seen more progress in the mmo market. As it stands it seems most devs are looking at box sales because they know many of us mmo gamers in the past have bought mmo after mmo based on hype.

It's not until we stop buying mmos at launch that we'll see a difference in the quality of mmos coming out. Keep that in mind, guys and gals. VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! Otherwise you're asking for the same ol' same ol'.

Originally posted by CymTyr

I agree with the OP. It's almost as if each new game that comes out that's a clone of WoW allows itself to do one, maybe two things differently.

Saying that, WoW is a clone of EQ. Blizz took the parts of EQ that people loved and got rid of or simplified the parts of EQ that people hate. Also keep in mind the lead devs on vanilla WoW were devs of EQ prior to that, Tigol and Foror if I'm not mistaken. They have many items named after them, the most famous from vanilla WoW being Foror's Compendium of Dragonslaying.

Anyway, if people did what Blizz did when they developed WoW and refine and expand on the things people like, then maybe we'd have seen more progress in the mmo market. As it stands it seems most devs are looking at box sales because they know many of us mmo gamers in the past have bought mmo after mmo based on hype.

It's not until we stop buying mmos at launch that we'll see a difference in the quality of mmos coming out. Keep that in mind, guys and gals. VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! Otherwise you're asking for the same ol' same ol'.

Tigole and Furor were each leaders of guilds in EQ.

Furor didnt become involved in the MMO industry until WOW, where he started writing quest lines.

Those of us who followed his guild's(Fires of Heaven) exploits remember his posts on visiting Blizz headquarters. Although Afterlife was based on my home server of Mithaniel Marr, I enjoyed reading the FOH boards(which I do till this very day).

Tigole was leader of Legaqcy of Steel I believe....pretty sure WoW was his first MMO work as well.

As far as this thread, and the issue of WoW clones etc:

PVE is the aspect of MMO gaming that sells best.

IMO the next "big" MMO will again be centered around it...ala EQ1 during it's heyday, and WOW currently. Unlike the OP, and some others, I believe TOR will be a smash hit if they have enough group centered PVE to go along with their story driven game.

Same boat as the OP, 9 years of mmos, although I don't agree with the entire thing.

I'd play a WoW clone, if it was good.I think it's a bit much to ask for innovation from every release. They all attempt to try something new for the most part (open questing, scrimmages, dual classes, etc..) Only a few games I'd consider "clones."

Anyways, the trash we've been getting in the past five years is always lacking something like someone mentioned earlier.

Great graphics with no content (AoC, Aion), PvE with not enough PvP (LotRO), or too much focus on PvP with no PvE (WAR, Aion).

I need solid PvE, with PvP (fair not ganking) reliable and available when I need to fill that void.

Originally posted by A-L-S-E

I just watched the gameplay videos again, and it seems as though the models are elite members of Monty Python's Ministry of Silly Walks.

I honestly don't understand what compelled Bioware to go with that stupid "stylized realism" look. I would've been extremely happy if the characters looked like the original Mass Effect characters, not even ME2 -- although that would be great. DA:O models would've been great too. The environments look great but I wish that they would redo the models completely.

They are trying too hard to be like WoW with the stylized graphics and it makes me wonder what else are they modeling after WoW? Is TOR going to be a WoW, set in space and with a better story?

Originally posted by heartless

 

I honestly don't understand what compelled Bioware to go with that stupid "stylized realism" look. I would've been extremely happy if the characters looked like the original Mass Effect characters, not even ME2 -- although that would be great. DA:O models would've been great too. The environments look great but I wish that they would redo the models completely.

They are trying too hard to be like WoW with the stylized graphics and it makes me wonder what else are they modeling after WoW? Is TOR going to be a WoW, set in space and with a better story?

Oh for goodness sake, using stylized graphics qualify as "trying to be like WoW" now? At least you didn't say "clone", that word is so misused it's approaching comedy. It's almost as bad as the "if I don't like it they were only in it for the money".

Stylized graphics is not particular to WoW, it's a common design feature prominent in loads of games as well as most cartoons and comics. It's a very common design choice with many advantages. Though I'm sure they are only doing it to be exactly like WoW and if they weren't only in it for the money they would have chosen an art style more to your liking.

Darkfall

EVE

/thread

Originally posted by farfanugon

you are all freaking crazy the best mmo's of the decade have been released in the last 3 months

blaw all the above must be old people

Yes. 10 out of 10 peekaboologists agree.

Originally posted by BuniontToes

Darkfall

EVE

 

/thread

Yep

Originally posted by AgentAnarkii

Originally posted by Charisi

I just wanted to share my opinion on the state of gaming, to see if there were many out there that agreed. So /rant on

I have been playing mmorpg's for 10 years., although I really didn't get sucked into one until Star Wars Galaxies came out. I played that game religiously for 2 1/2 years right up until, (yup, you guessed it), the NGE. Before you roll your eyes and curse the rantings of another disgruntled SWG vet, don't worry. I'm not going to rant about what SOE did to that game. Everyone knows what happened, and it's been talked to death repeatedly.

Anyway, after the travesty of SWG, I tried a couple other mmo's before settling into WoW when it launched in 2004. I like many others rather enjoyed it for the first year or so. Once it took off in popularity + the launching of Burning Crusade, was in my opinion, when the game started to fall hard. By fall I mean, they nerfed away all the skill in the game, and replaced it with carebear fun time happiness. The game became much less about skill, and much more about gear and numbers.

I used to say a few years ago that WoW's success was both a blessing and a curse to the mmo world. A blessing due to it finally bringing mmo gaming to the forefront, while being a curse at the same time due to the slew of relative crap games we've seen as a result. Now I disagree with the first part of my statement. I think WoW has grown to be a curse on the mmo gaming industry.

What are we left with? Take a look at the games that have come out since late 2005 and on. It is nothing but a sea of WoW clones. I've always asked myself, who in their right mind would play a WoW clone? If I'm faced with the choice of playing WoW or a crappy WoW knockoff, I'll stick with WoW itself.

Take a look at all the "big" games that have come out the last few years. 99% of them have bombed for one reason or another. Age of Conan, Warhammer, EQ2, STO, and the list goes on. With games like AoC, I have no idea how you can screw something like that up in the first place. If any of you have ever read any of Howard's Conan stories, you know they had such a rich and vibrant world in which to draw material from. Instead we got a clunky, unfinished, linear,  piece of junk.

STO is another one that sticks out in my mind. We have one of the biggest sci-fi franchises in history. 11 movies, five tv series' each multiple seasons, and countless books/comics.  There is soooooo much they could have pulled from the Star Trek universe that could have made STO one of the most successful mmo's to date. Instead, we get a reskinned Champions Online with space ships. Great job Cryptic.

I could complain all day about games, but I digress. What is wrong with these companies? They continue to churn out clone after clone, despite the fact that the majority of these clones never make any money. Few re-tool their games over time to better suit WoW lovers, (EQ2 comes to mind), and manage to stick around with a meager subscription base.

The sci-fi genre has been left virtually untouched. At first there was SWG and EVE, and we all know how Galaxies went. EVE was ok at first, but as I have always joked, you need a calculus degree to play EVE, where is EVE JR. ? Now it seems we have several EVE clones in the works. Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution, etc. What I 'd like to see, is a game as expansive as EVE, where you can actually get out of your ship and do stuff. Get into a bar brawl, and blast your way back to your ship. You know, a truly epic sci fi game.

The one big game I haven't mentioned yet is Star Wars: The Old Republic. Now, before I get into that, let me preface it by saying, I am a Star Wars junkie, and a Bioware fanboy. I firmly believe Bioware craps gold. In saying that, why does TOR look so bad? I had such high hopes for that game when they finally announced it, but the more I read on it, the more I think it's going to be a great big steaming pile of sith. Granted, no one has played it yet, so I just have to wait and see, but I'm not holding my breath anymore.

So what is left in a sea of WoW clones? Games that developers rush out before they are done, and use subscription fees to finish, (*cough* *cough* SOE)? Games that companies rush out half finished, collect an initial surge of money, and let the game rot? Where are all the unique games? When is someone going to break from the mold and make a good game that isn't just another carbon copy? As I look down the list of upcoming games, I'm not very hopeful.

Anyway, /rant off I guess. Kudos to those that actually read through my wall of text opinion. Please let me know your thoughts, (in a constructive manner please), whether you feel I'm right or wrong. I always welcome a healthy debate.

So you're saying just because a game has the interface of WoW it's a clone? AoC is nothing like WoW and it's coming back with a vengeance. I will admit WAR is toast. Not because its a so-called "WoW Clone" but because the PvP is bland and alot of levels you feel so alone it's not even funny. And technically WoW is an "EQ Clone" and EQ would be an "Ultima Clone" and Ultima would be similar to some MUD. I just fucking hate when ignorant people start assuming games are WoW Clones. 

 

And what MUD would Ultima Online be a clone of?  I keep waiting for someone to answer that..  But the answer is that Ultima was the merging of the single player Ultima games of old with a multiplayer component.  Yes there was muds before that but I doubt they had enough influnce for Ultima Online to be born of them.

UO's original goal was to take the Ultima series and expand it into a multiplayer playground of players to interact within.  Thats why the first versions of Ultima Online used nothing more then the old Ultima tile engine with a hacked togeather multiplayer component. 

And for the record Everquest was in development while Ultima Online was in development. So there is no way EQ could be a clone of Ultima Online.  If anything EQ is a mud clone since the early dev and prototype versions of EQ used a open soruce mud server setup.

I feel very much like the OP does. Lotta stale bread in the bakery ya know... At the moment I'm waiting for SW:TOR, Secret World  and the title from 38 studios, Copernicus. Honestly, if 38 studios fails to deliver, I might just leave the genre for good.

I agree with you, a game with unique design and a game that would be polished at release, thats what I am hoping for but I guess I can keep hoping for that a looong time.

Originally posted by monarc333

I feel very much like the OP does. Lotta stale bread in the bakery ya know... At the moment I'm waiting for SW:TOR, Secret World  and the title from 38 studios, Copernicus. Honestly, if 38 studios fails to deliver, I might just leave the genre for good.

I think we're in the same boat. Although the one I was waiting for was, (still is, I guess) SW: TOR. I have put all my eggs in the Bioware basket so to speak. I think if that game fails, I might just quit playing mmo's. After all, console games are finally starting to bridge the gap between linear and open world. It'll be interesting to see where console games are in the next 3-5 years.

Originally posted by BuniontToes

Darkfall

EVE

 

/thread

I hardly think using these two games as the "light at the end of the tunnel" for the sad state of gaming is valid. One is a great game with a reasonable population (Eve) and the other a mediocre game with -- for all intents and purposes -- an insignificant poulation. Bad examples all around.

People tend to like what is familar over something new. It has nothing to do with which games are good or bad. The sad state of gaming is the fault of GAMERS, not game developers. Game developers are in the business of making money. Do you really think they would still be making WoW-clones if no one was buying/playing them? That alone should be evidence enough.

 If any game does come along and garner the same type of numbers as WoW then all the naysayers and chest thumpers will simply throne that game as the new one to ruin the mmo industry and berate how every game is a clone of that one.

The fact remains there are different types of mmos out there.  Some people just don't want to recognize them or try them out.  All the more power to them, but the whole phase of berating the industry as a whole or saying everything is a wow clone is really getting old.

What it really boils down to some being burned out on the genre as a whole than it does to the games in general.  There are certainly some trying to copy others out there but they aren't all doing this.

...and the ones that aren't simply get dismissed because of their player numbers.  Regardless whether those numbers make it a successful venture for the company running the game or not.

This topic within itself proves that there is much to blame for the current state of the mmo industry least with those that think there is an issue is on some players as much as it is on some companies producing the mmos. 

Originally posted by MMOman101

I just do not get it.  If you cannot find a game here; you should look to a new genre.  There are plenty of games out there.  I think the problem is the individual has changed.

To use that kind of logic you must know nothing about what's been released since wow.  Gee, we have 1,000,000 games to choose from!  Surely one of them is great, right?  Wrong.

Originally posted by Bertiaux

Originally posted by BuniontToes

Darkfall

EVE

 

/thread

 

I hardly think using these two games as the "light at the end of the tunnel" for the sad state of gaming is valid. One is a great game with a reasonable population (Eve) and the other a mediocre game with -- for all intents and purposes -- an insignificant poulation. Bad examples all around.

People tend to like what is familar over something new. It has nothing to do with which games are good or bad. The sad state of gaming is the fault of GAMERS, not game developers. Game developers are in the business of making money. Do you really think they would still be making WoW-clones if no one was buying/playing them? That alone should be evidence enough.

So solution?  How can we off all the shallow and dumb players...

Originally posted by Bertiaux

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Darkfall.

Fallen Earth.

Mortal Online.

Xsyon.

These are games that break the mold you speak of.

And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?

Where to start.

Darkfall - I played in Beta, no thank you, AGAIN NO THANK YOU.  FFA game with no player skill involved and do not say other wise because you dam well know what the longer the player has played (afk macro) the more wins they will have in PvP Period,  sure sometimes the lesser player wins but not many and the ganking is out of control at least when I played.

Mortal Online - Not released yet and again this is a very unfinished game that will be finished with your money once released just like Darkfall.  Buggy game right now.

Xsyon - not sure if these is even a real game or not yet, all the info we have are some screen shots and a website and dev comments, no video, no real information.  So we have to wait and see.

Fallen Earth - Played beta, fun game but not my cup of tea which is fine.  Good game though. 

So 1 out of 4 is pretty good I guess

Myself, I want a fantasy game that allows for player skill and makes a player work and learn as they play, nothing handed out.  Like I have said in the past, give me a game along the lines of Everquest (1) with update graphics and new lore and I will pay and play it.  Played EQ1 for 5+ years.

Currently I am playing Pirates of the Burning Sea because I like the Realm vs Realm and the ship combat is alot of fun.  Best part of PoTBS is that it takes player skill to win PvP battles, having a heaver ship does not mean you win, knowing how to sail your ship and when and what skills/repairs to use at what time count more then the number of guns you have.

Originally posted by greymann

Originally posted by Bertiaux

Originally posted by BuniontToes

Darkfall

EVE

 

/thread

 

I hardly think using these two games as the "light at the end of the tunnel" for the sad state of gaming is valid. One is a great game with a reasonable population (Eve) and the other a mediocre game with -- for all intents and purposes -- an insignificant poulation. Bad examples all around.

People tend to like what is familar over something new. It has nothing to do with which games are good or bad. The sad state of gaming is the fault of GAMERS, not game developers. Game developers are in the business of making money. Do you really think they would still be making WoW-clones if no one was buying/playing them? That alone should be evidence enough.

So solution?  How can we off all the shallow and dumb players...

 

Why would we need to "off" them? Whether you like it or not, those "shallow and dumb players" are the ones that keep the genre going. If you got rid of all the WoW clones, that wouldn't drive more people TO games like EVE and DFO. It would drive more people AWAY from the genre. Face it, most people don't want "hardcore" gankfests -- they want "happy, happy, joy, joy" mindless entertainment after a long, hard day.
 

Originally posted by farfanugon

WAIT .........

i know  how to make this thread a happier place .............. prunes everyone stop and eat a handful of prunes wait 15 mins drink a cup or 2 of coffee then repost . go ahead get started make the happy take over the thread

Prunes and coffee? Are you suggesting that what this thread needs is more shit?

Originally posted by J.Yossarian

Originally posted by heartless

 

I honestly don't understand what compelled Bioware to go with that stupid "stylized realism" look. I would've been extremely happy if the characters looked like the original Mass Effect characters, not even ME2 -- although that would be great. DA:O models would've been great too. The environments look great but I wish that they would redo the models completely.

They are trying too hard to be like WoW with the stylized graphics and it makes me wonder what else are they modeling after WoW? Is TOR going to be a WoW, set in space and with a better story?

 

Oh for goodness sake, using stylized graphics qualify as "trying to be like WoW" now? At least you didn't say "clone", that word is so misused it's approaching comedy. It's almost as bad as the "if I don't like it they were only in it for the money".

 

Stylized graphics is not particular to WoW, it's a common design feature prominent in loads of games as well as most cartoons and comics. It's a very common design choice with many advantages. Though I'm sure they are only doing it to be exactly like WoW and if they weren't only in it for the money they would have chosen an art style more to your liking.

The point is that Star Wars is not stylized. It's known mostly because of the movies and the books. The current models look like they walked off the set of a cartoon. If you're happy with them, that's fine. Not all of us are, however. Personally, I would have a hard time relating to my character if he moved and looked like a Saturday morning cartoon character. That's just me though.

I like WoW's stylized art style. But Warcraft has always been stylized, Star Wars wasn't. That is why I say that Bioware is trying to emulate WoW in that regard.