First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.

I played Darkfall at launch and go screwed around so much I swore I would never play it ever again. A year later I was convinced to give it another try because my friends and I needed to find another game. I can't believe how amazing Darkfall has become! This game has blown my mind and I can't imagine I will ever leave again.

It took them a year to fix their game and two full (but free) expansions before this game got to the point I was dreaming of in the first place. I am so glad I was let go of my anger with Adventurine long enough to take a second look.

Just because something is different, doesn't mean it should be granted a high score.

Different can be great just as it can be awful. 

Originally posted by BigMango

Originally posted by Nevulus

Originally posted by bluebawles 

Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)

 

then it would be biased, and do the mmo world a large injustice.

 

Why should PVEers be reviewing everything?

 

Would you use a financial analyst for a football review?

 

Or a PVPer for a PVE game review, who would complain about the linear handholding quest grinding gameplay and the lack of PVP in a PVE game, as opposed to the Ed Zitron like Darkfall reviews we have seen?

 

There are different kinds of mmorpgs. Let the people who know what they are about review them.

 

Fail. No where did I say let a PVEr review it, instead pick someone with a general overview of ALL aspects of MMO. How bout a jack of all trades and master of none. It's ok you jumped to conclusions and read only what you wanted to read. There are MANY MMOers out there that enjoy PVP just as much as PVE just as much as sandbox play just as much as theme-park play. 

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Originally posted by Esther-Chan

First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.

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so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
 

Originally posted by JordanJax

 

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Originally posted by Esther-Chan

 

First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.

---

 

so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
 

No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.

Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.

Originally posted by Esther-Chan

Originally posted by JordanJax

 

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Originally posted by Esther-Chan

 

First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.

---

 

so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
 

 

No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.

that's what Ive been trying to say but people dont seem to get it. Fanboys maybe? I dont know.  

I enjoy all aspects of MMOs, I'm a gamer at heart, but as a MMO player I wont try to review a FPS because it is not my type of thing. Let MMO players review MMO games and let FPSer review FPS games. Stop segregating them into PVP only and PVE only. If Darkfall stated "THIS IS ONLY A PVP GAME" then I could warrant a PVPer reviewing it, but since that ISN'T their intention, they actually are implementing PVE then let a MMO player who enjoys ALL THINGS MMO review it.

Originally posted by Esther-Chan

First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.

So wait a causal gamer reviewing a causal MMO isn't biased? But a PvP gamer reviewing a PvP game is biased? wow....

Originally posted by Toquio3

Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.

lol Well said! if that was true, 90% of the posts on this site would disappear. It would be a joyful day though.

4 years ago this site has been visited mostly by mmo vets who know the stuff and are pretty objective. rankings and hype those days were pretty accurate. WoW, for example was never in top 5.

then mmorpg.com has been invaded by immature masses. too many inexperienced playersvoting resulted in broken ratings and overhyped games. just dont read this sht anymore

Originally posted by Esther-Chan

Originally posted by JordanJax

 

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Originally posted by Esther-Chan

 

First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.

---

 

so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
 

 

No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.

A PvE'er, a PvP'er.. whatever! If you are reviewing a game that is PvP focused then you better well be at least comfortable with PvP. Darkfall has some of my favorite PvE encounter and Crafting I have ever seen but if I was not comfortable with PvP then I would hate this game too. I am an MMO gamer so I look for all these things, that way I know I will get the most out of what ever I play. If you don't like PvP then go play Final Fantasy.

I am sure the staff reviewing these games select the right people for the job and at the time of the review this game deserved nothing better then a 3 rating. Although because MMO's are constantly growing it is a little unfair to judge a game at release and then never go back and take a second look. I would now give this game an 8 rating now that I have come back after being away for a year.

Originally posted by Toquio3

Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.

This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:

Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?

And if you can take that leap of faith above…

maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…

So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.

Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.

Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.

You be the judge.
 

Originally posted by JordanJax

Originally posted by Toquio3

Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.

 

This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:

Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?

And if you can take that leap of faith above…

maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…

So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.

Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.

Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.

You be the judge.
 

what....logic....no way... :) qft

Originally posted by Uzik

Does Darkfall have skill caps?

Does Darkfall have grind based PvP?

Does Darkfall have interesting PvE?

Does Darkfall have innovative crafting?

Does Darkfall have a solid siege system?

 

 

I have a free Darkfall account and I can't even bring myself to play it anymore.  The promise of Darkfall and what we were given were two completely different things. 

I was the most hopeful follower of the game ( just check ED's article on Darkfall), and played it completely with the sad realization that Darkfall failed.

 

 

Don't understand that post.

you mention the strong points of  Darkfall and then you say you don't play ?

I will recap:

no skill caps ! amazing

need effort to progress ! amazing

interesting PvE  !   amazing

ok crafting you may got a point..not innovative ..but solid..

DF siege system ! amazing

That get me into Darkfall above any other game ! in Really i didn't touched any other game since i have a DF account..even not a single player and i used to play M&B prior to DF..

Re-reviewing a game like Darkfall will only allow developers to release games in terrible states, but as long as they improve it, they will be forgiven... sorry, don't think so. Bad rating, always a bad rating.

Originally posted by sinjin

 

DF has a 6.0 for a reason.  It is due to the fact that the masses all agree it is a sub par game.  Just becuase a few people like something doesn't mean it is good it means those few people have bad taste, whereas, when you have a larger mass of individuals that agree something is bad then it is generally bad. Just sayin.

That's the most fallacious logic I've heard in a while. Because a "few" people like something it means they have bad taste?

So you're saying the millions of idiot Americans that had America Online (AOL) as their internet service provider (probably one of the worst internet providers... ever... just ask anyone who knows anything about networking i.e. the professionals) means that AOL was amazing and the few people that moved to broadband or other service providers had "bad taste"? Lol.... thanks for making me laugh.

And the masses think it's a sub par game? Newsflash buddy, the masses haven't tried Darkfall. Sure, plenty of people have tried Darkfall and not enjoyed it, but just as many if not more have tried it and loved it. So what does that tell you?

Either way, a lot of people won't like Darkfall PERIOD. Why? Because the average gamer cannot handle a full loot, free for all, risk vs. reward style MMO like Darkfall is.

Why do you think so many people play World of Warcraft? Because it caters to casuals and carebears, which has unfortunately become the common kind of gamer in the MMO community (because of World of Warcraft... go figure!). Hell, my 60 year old aunt plays World of Warcraft, my ex-girlfriend who hates most video games plays World of Warcraft, two of my female co-workers (early 20s) play World of Warcraft.

If you make a game very easy, and in that same game allow players plenty of rewards with little to no risk (ala World of Warcraft), you're going to get a lot of subscribers. It doesn't mean the game is good, it doesn't mean the game is bad, it simply means that it caters towards a larger population of gamers.

But I digress, your argument is so logically flawed it's funny, but keep thinking that's the way it is.

Originally posted by Stradden

First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.

Stradden, do you seriously not see the problem with that? "joe average gamer" is going to HATE Darkfall, because "joe average gamer" can't stand:

- full loot

- free for all PvP

- harsh risks vs. rewards

"joe average gamer" is the kind of gamer that plays World of Warcraft, plays Aion, plays Age of Conan, etc. I'm not saying these games are bad for the audiences they cater towards (casuals, carebears, etc), but you can't take someone from World of Warcraft, throw them into the world of Agon, and expect that they're going to have a "grand old time".

Let me ask you this: If World of Warcraft all of a sudden implemented full loot, do you really think even 25% of the player base would continue playing? 

I'd argue strongly that no, they wouldn't. That ONE aspect of gameplay, i.e. full loot, would turn off SO MANY of the "joe average gamers" you are talking about, because "joe average gamer" can't stand losing his pixels, and "joe average gamer" likes having his hand held, and "joe average gamer" likes the kind of things seen in themepark style MMOs.

I'm not saying have a hardcore PvP fan review the game, because yes, I would find that to be somewhat biased, but please, for the love of god, let someone who can HANDLE full loot, who can HANDLE free for all PvP, and who can HANDLE having to risk a hell of a lot for a reward (which doesn't happen in the other games I mentioned) review this game. Then, I'll be satisfied, even if that reviewer gives another poor score.

Originally posted by Kasmos

Originally posted by Stradden

First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.

 

Stradden, do you seriously not see the problem with that? "joe average gamer" is going to HATE Darkfall, because "joe average gamer" can't stand:

- full loot

- free for all PvP

- harsh risks vs. rewards

"joe average gamer" is the kind of gamer that plays World of Warcraft, plays Aion, plays Age of Conan, etc. I'm not saying these games are bad for the audiences they cater towards (casuals, carebears, etc), but you can't take someone from World of Warcraft, throw them into the world of Agon, and expect that they're going to have a "grand old time".

Let me ask you this: If World of Warcraft all of a sudden implemented full loot, do you really think even 25% of the player base would continue playing? 

I'd argue strongly that no, they wouldn't. That ONE aspect of gameplay, i.e. full loot, would turn off SO MANY of the "joe average gamers" you are talking about, because "joe average gamer" can't stand losing his pixels, and "joe average gamer" likes having his hand held, and "joe average gamer" likes the kind of things seen in themepark style MMOs.

 

I'm not saying have a hardcore PvP fan review the game, because yes, I would find that to be somewhat biased, but please, for the love of god, let someone who can HANDLE full loot, who can HANDLE free for all PvP, and who can HANDLE having to risk a hell of a lot for a reward (which doesn't happen in the other games I mentioned) review this game. Then, I'll be satisfied, even if that reviewer gives another poor score.

I strongly agree with this post.
 

If I had been asked to review Darkfall coming straight out of WOW (my first MMOrpg), I simply would not have been up to the task. I would not have been able to appreciate the game for what it had to offer. However after playing EVE for years (took me a few months and few toons to even get into that at first), I would be much better prepared to review a game like Darkfall.

I just don't understand having someone review something that they most likely have never tried and most likely are not going to enjoy. If I needed a road test on a tank, what benefit would there be to having your average car/SUV driver (most common vehicles on our roads) get behind the controls and pump out a review? It would be pointless.

Like I said before, I wouldn't take a vegan's critique of a restaurant very seriously. Why would anyone but a vegan?

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by bluebawles

Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)

 

Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.

First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.

In the specific case of our first Darkfall review, I thought that the reviewer did a great job of explaining that Darkfall was a game created for a niche audience. He even stated that while he was no longer a member of that niche, that he once was and came at the article from that perspective. In short, he was a PvPer. 

But for us to actively look for someone who fits directly and easily into the niche of a game like this would be just as irresponsible and biased of as as if we were to get someone to review the game who hated PvP and never engaged in it within the confines of less harsh games. In both cases, one point of view would be so over-represented as to make the review biased and useless to the average gamer.

Reviews are very subjective things. We'll put aside the fact that the reviews in question were written and scored by two completely different people and concentrate instead on what was said in them. Review are not, and should not be a simple regurgitation of scores. Reviews are, in actuality, about the rationale behind the scores. The reasons that, for example, Alganon got a 5.8 and Darkfall got a 6.0 are vastly different. In reviews as in all things, context is key.

Now, with all of that being said, we have a loose policy of wanting to look at an MMO again a year after its initial review. Of course we're looking for someone to take another look at Darkfall, just don't expect us to use someone whose gaming experience is defined by hardcore PvP any more than we're going to use someone who will hate a game just because it has PvP.

Anyway, I hope that clears things up for you.

The question is Stradden which is it going to be? We're not expecting anything, you guys have to pick a reviewer and unless you can borrow Lieutenant Commander Data from STO for a while I very much doubt he/she is going to be 100% objective. In fact a totaly objective review would be very boring and doing little more than stating facts, a review should state experiences and what effect those had on the reviewer and his/her thoughts on them also.

You have to pick someone and if you're going to review a PvP game doesn't it stand to reason that the reviewer should have as much experience of PvP MMORPGs as possible and atleast enjoy them to some degree?

Average Joe gamer? What you're suggesting is not reviewing a game on it's merits but reviewing a game depending on your own perception of what the mainstream gamer likes/dislikes. In that case if the average Joe gamer or the mainstream wasn't WoW but rather Shadowbane then DF would logicaly scored higher than 6 and LotRO would be around 6 itself?

Using your logic your reviews seem to depend more upon your perception of the mainstream and what you believe they will like or dislike than the actual game and it's own merits. This is the flaw many here have been pointing out and many fear you will send a mainstream MMORPGer to review a niche game with an obvious result.

We don't get a review of Darkfall online, instead we get an uneducated shallow series of disgruntled sound bites telling you why you need to ultimately avoid this game.

Every Darkfall player here isn't asking for a good review, we're just begging for a fair one. Would it be any more fair to have me write a review of WoW for this site and give it a write up and rating that's going to stick there for a year?

Agricola.