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Star Wars Galaxies

Star Wars Galaxies 

SWG Veteran Refuge  » Are we really doing the industry a service?

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81 posts found
  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2941

Momento Mori

2/17/10 7:28:44 PM#21

Tbh, I don't think our voices count for very much when the big decisions are made these days.  I don't think complaints about SWG swung the genre towards WoW clonage.

Actually, I think quite the opposite took place.  People preferred Koster's virtual world to the dumbed-down and broken CUNGE WoW rip-offs.  The big stink arose when the sandbox was filled with cat droppings.

Also, I've said this many times, but doubt that MMO decision makers take much notice: it wasn't the sandbox concept that was a problem when SWG first came out.  It was that it was broken and very incomplete.  You only launch once, and SOE/LA blew this one big time.

Their efforts to fix this only made things worse.  Someone once compared it to stopping the bleeding in a head wound by applying a tourniquet to the victim's neck.

No, we didn't bring down the sandbox with our feedback.  Marketting gurus are currently holding summits on how to pump out cheap online games that create an ever-increasing artificial demand for virtual goods, sold at your friendly neighbourhood RMT shop.

There are bigger forces at work.  Customer satisfaction, or the lack thereof, seems largely irrelevant to the fat cats these days.

P.S. To answer you question directly, yes.  When I refuse to pay for broken crap, bad customer service, and ever increasing fees for virtual goodies, I think I am doing the genre a service.  What the decision makers do with this service is up to them -_^.  Lately, I've seen a lot of missed opportunities for improvement.

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

2/17/10 7:42:11 PM#22
Originally posted by Kazara

I am sorry about your disappointment about STO.  Your first paragraph outlined the problems well. It will be interesting to see how many players drop the game after their free 30 day subscription runs out. At least Cryptic refunded your Life-time subscription fee.

Your fourth paragraph is disconcerting  -

"My 64 dollar question is; by boycotting SWG, even in it's current CHANGED state, are we screaming to industry research that the great experiment that Koster made is gone and failed? Are we telling the industry that there is no market for a sandbox MMO to be tried again? After all, we all pretty much know that the sub numbers for SWG current is rather dismal and some here, myself included, have taken satisfaction in some of that. How can another AAA studio even contemplate making another sandbox with the only real sandbox out there in such bad shape?"

I don't believe for a second that a continued 'boycott' of SWG is sending an anti-sandbox message. SWG isn't failing becasue it offers sandbox game play (albeit just a shadow of what it was in earlier incarnations)  -  SWG is in bad shape because it is a very flawed wreck mismanaged and mutilated by a very unscrupulous company, $OE.  Game developers have learned that trying to make WoW knock-offs via cut & paste development will not generate WoW success. Some companies still need to learn that releasing incomplete, unpolished MMO's, no matter what game play style, will lead to almost certain failure, STO being the latest example.

So many more MMO's have entered the a very competitive gaming market with different gameplay business models. Gaming companies will always take the path of least resistance to access a customer's wallet, and we are witnessing it. F2P games with cash shops offering a myriad of virtual goodies (big business for sure) attract more more more potential players. Sadly, the direction that game development is going just does not support true sandbox game play as we once knew it.

 


 

QFT

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

2/17/10 7:53:30 PM#23
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by Shelby13

Housing, Crafting, Spaceflight, Player Economy, Sandbox, Roleplay, Non-Combat Classes... most MMO's barely touch 1 or 2 of these kinds of 'features'.


 

Interesting...the only things you listed were things the NGE didn't change (minus economy). Just pointing it out, don't read more into it than that :)


 

nonesense.

 

housing: mayor profession was freely given to everyone without the need to give up any skill points in other profession.

crafting: crafting professions were made reduntant as they shifted to a loot based economy. crafters fled. new and old items conflicted with each other. people lost millions of credits in useless items or finding themselves incapable of competing with other crafters who had the competitive advantage of surplus stock (eg bio tissues for chefs)

player economy: see above.

sanbox: quest lines such as the legacy quest took away the creative freedom to put a player on a path for over 50 levels. quests issued huge benefits in terms of XP compared to other means which meant the natural way was to follow to kashyyyk and then to mustafar. interdependacy and cooperation between profession ended (cooperation later reinstated), penalties were removed and skills were replaced by a linear class system. grouping was discouraged by an evident advantage in solo and/or questing XP gain.

non-combar classes: rendered useless due to the loot based economy and extermination of the interdependancy and the the ability to sell services.

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

2/17/10 8:16:15 PM#24

star wars galaxies: nge is such a joke on so many levels that anyone blaming its failure to a sandbox boycott is living inside a ravioli and doesn't know the first thing about what mmorpg customers need and want. myself as many others have covered all its flaws time and again so i won't repeat myself here - although kaz has been spot on on her assessment.

 

if people don't boycott star wars galaxies for their principles they really should be boycotting due to its infinite number of longstanding bugs, lag, broken systems, empty servers, the microtransaction scam abuse by soe, exploits galore etc.

 

a time will come when current or future developers will  see the error of their ways and realise that they need to go back to the drawing board with a copy of Koster's manual to guide them through; as well as hiring nancy "too much reading" macintyre and do exactly the opposite of what she suggests.

 

 

  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2941

Momento Mori

2/17/10 8:50:54 PM#25

You know Esquire, when I first learned what STO was at launch, I had a very similar thought to yours.  It went something like, "wow man, these jokers make SWG look good lol."

Upon further reflection, I see both as flawed games.   They were both incomplete and bug-ridden at release.  They both have popular sci-fi IPs as their main draw; and both have a subscription fee, plus RMT money pits.  Tbh, I lump them both in the same category.

What I find extremely interesting is that the guy calling the shots for STO was a Vice President with SOE--no kidding.  It seems that he learned from the Master.  "There are always two, a Master and an apprentice."  I guess that's true after all lol.

I tried STO's beta, and was extremely disappointed by repeated crashes to desk-top.  Then I learned about the RMT crap for playable races with game-changing stat bonuses.  I voted with my wallet on that game, much like I voted against the NGE--and subsequent developments.

Did my vote count for anything?  Well, it's hard to say.  STO is now available at a discount price tho lol, already!  Maybe someone's getting some kind of message.  Smed also did acknowledge that NGE was a big mistake, and that many people voted with their feet.  I think that is in fact the right kind of message to send.

Meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken, games like EVE online continue to grow.  That's a sandbox space game, I believe, with a straight subscription model too.  Didn't it just win another gaming award?  Wouldn't surprise me.

 

  Delvie

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/06
Posts: 463

2/17/10 8:53:30 PM#26

It's not us - it's the economics involved.  Ever thought hard about what it takes to make a 3d world (actually several  different worlds) where players make buildings and items can be placed freely?  Throw in a crafting and resource system where both the raw product and the end product result in tons of unique storage needs in a database and your talking major database management.  Then throw in the space game and entertainers.  Ok you are talking major development commitment - because if I remember right they wrote all the underlying engines and tools themselves.

Yes WOW has a 3d world - and is highly polished - but players cannot change that world.

Yes LOTRO has a 3d world - and while it has housing, it's tame in comparison.

Yes Eve has space game - but without a walking Avatar I always felt like I was playing a spreadsheet game.

My point is that the economics just are astronomical - I'd also point out that WOW, LOTRO, and Eve while not having the breadth of SWG options do have the polish that SWG has never gotten.  Lots of money and dev effort went into SWG - I think the lesson learned by devs is not to bite off more than you can chew - and I think that lesson was learned before NGE even happened, at least by companies who were paying attention.

Check out our blog: http://www.ticklemetyria.com

  Esquire1980

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 530

 
OP  2/18/10 12:36:36 AM#27
Originally posted by ArcAngel3

You know Esquire, when I first learned what STO was at launch, I had a very similar thought to yours.  It went something like, "wow man, these jokers make SWG look good lol."

Upon further reflection, I see both as flawed games.   They were both incomplete and bug-ridden at release.  They both have popular sci-fi IPs as their main draw; and both have a subscription fee, plus RMT money pits.  Tbh, I lump them both in the same category.

What I find extremely interesting is that the guy calling the shots for STO was a Vice President with SOE--no kidding.  It seems that he learned from the Master.  "There are always two, a Master and an apprentice."  I guess that's true after all lol.

I tried STO's beta, and was extremely disappointed by repeated crashes to desk-top.  Then I learned about the RMT crap for playable races with game-changing stat bonuses.  I voted with my wallet on that game, much like I voted against the NGE--and subsequent developments.

Did my vote count for anything?  Well, it's hard to say.  STO is now available at a discount price tho lol, already!  Maybe someone's getting some kind of message.  Smed also did acknowledge that NGE was a big mistake, and that many people voted with their feet.  I think that is in fact the right kind of message to send.

Meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken, games like EVE online continue to grow.  That's a sandbox space game, I believe, with a straight subscription model too.  Didn't it just win another gaming award?  Wouldn't surprise me.

 


 

In the STO Closed beta, I actualy liked the game when Cryptic was only letting the servers go up for 2-3 hours at a time.  It wasn't until they gave us a "leveling weekend", reset player progression and turned us loose that the "hey, this is really boring" posts came to be.  And you should of seen em,  very drastic.  Cryptic countered by saying we hadn't seen the complete game as yet, many systems were not put into the CB client and that they would try and move the "patrol" missions around some to break them up.  So, we held on until Open Beta.  When the same ideals hit the forums, they again said that not all game systems were in Open Beta, also.  Then Pre-launch came about.  When the exact same came up yet again, they pulled an SOE and just ignored the problem in it's entirty.  After launch, the problem seemed to grow incredibly with the no answer being the norm, now.

I have to admit, I do not see both games as flawed.  I see STO as being extreemly cheap, on the fly, copy/paiste rushed development.  Maybe, that could be flushed out in a year or 2 post launch, if they retain enough subs to make that worthy.  Sadly, I'm not going to be one of them.  It's just that boring and that bad to me.

I see SWG as a game that once had me activly anticipating my time in the game.  Had my mind drifting, even sitting down reviewing a case file at work, to what I was about to accomplish or the next thing on the game plan for my character(s), city, houses, guild, etc.  I remember that anticipation of the community, what their interests were, what they needed to make their toons/etc complete.  That has never happened again.  Most who I speak to on SWG, had the same feeling about whatever version they started playing.  It appears that Shelby got the same thing out of NGE, I know that my wife did as she still continues on and started just before GU-3.  I never let her put points in what she was going to lose so she never experienced that feeling of loss in a patch, either. I see SWG as a total mismanaged game.  I, and maybe 300,000 others were willing to overlook the bugs, do work-arounds, etc to continue.  I see SWG as a CHANGED product, many times, and in many variations, that appeals to less and less as the CHANGES took place.  But, I still see SWG as something special, in the way of games and in experimentation, I guess.

No other game has even came close as you say about STO, "these jokers make SWG look good".  A year or so ago, I had the privilage of having a months long pm convo with Chris Klug, an Professor in MMO development and the Creative Director of SGW.  I found him extreemly versed in MMO development, marketing, etc.  And when the subject at hand got around to sandbox, he said about the same thing as the writer here at MMORPG.com just did about sandbox.  That storyline based MMOs were where "it's at, now" and when I posed my argument to that point, I was asked, "Hey, aren't you one of the guys over at the MMORPG.com refuge forums that hates SWG?"  Shoulda tipped me off right there, but I blew past that with, any hatred I have is for the administrator of SWG, not for the game, itself.  So, I guess he got that out of what we're doing here.  A misconstrued message, probably somewhere out of the middle of what us and SOE have been putting out.  (SOE spin-) SOE had such a bad game they had to CHANGE it in a massive manner and without coming here and reading the message, he assumed that we were just touting how bad it was.

To be honest, I believe we have made somewhat of a difference.  Like I said before, if you have almost 1/2 million out there that have nothing good to say, that is going to picked up by someone.  SOE sure thinks we have made a difference, at least that their spin, anyway.  With their downgrading of past customers being their total problem,per them, and to a certain percentage, I would guess they are right.  We are a vocal group.  We do not shy away from telling others about the mismanagement of SWG.  We have no qualms about touting how our favorite game or product we were paying for was CHANGED on us, in a single day, with a single patch, and we warn everyone who will listen.  Expecially if the industry accepts that the message is miscontrued  to the point of SWG is just bad.

As I asked before;  has our message, with all the good intentions in the world, been miscontrued to the point of........... that we will never experience a decent game made in the sandbox model again?  How can a AAA studio, or a group of investors, for that matter, actualy sit around a table and discuss making another attempt while the only sandbox MMO (and yes, I am aware that the sandbox was what SOE tried to destroy with CU/NGE), outside of Eve which is known as a niche game, flounders?  Have we been great at our volume control and not so good with the content of the message as a whole?  Or has SOE polluted the message with their usual spin?  Either way, looks to me now, like we both, SOE and us, lose. They lose their game to loss of subs and we don't have 1 to play, either.  Altho, a good flightless bird can still make us come out on top, I guess.

  TUX426

Inquisitor

Joined: 8/04/09
Posts: 1971

Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.

2/18/10 10:14:22 AM#28
Originally posted by Troneas
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by Shelby13

Housing, Crafting, Spaceflight, Player Economy, Sandbox, Roleplay, Non-Combat Classes... most MMO's barely touch 1 or 2 of these kinds of 'features'.


 

Interesting...the only things you listed were things the NGE didn't change (minus economy). Just pointing it out, don't read more into it than that :)


 

nonesense.

 

housing: mayor profession was freely given to everyone without the need to give up any skill points in other profession.

crafting: crafting professions were made reduntant as they shifted to a loot based economy. crafters fled. new and old items conflicted with each other. people lost millions of credits in useless items or finding themselves incapable of competing with other crafters who had the competitive advantage of surplus stock (eg bio tissues for chefs)

player economy: see above.

sanbox: quest lines such as the legacy quest took away the creative freedom to put a player on a path for over 50 levels. quests issued huge benefits in terms of XP compared to other means which meant the natural way was to follow to kashyyyk and then to mustafar. interdependacy and cooperation between profession ended (cooperation later reinstated), penalties were removed and skills were replaced by a linear class system. grouping was discouraged by an evident advantage in solo and/or questing XP gain.

non-combar classes: rendered useless due to the loot based economy and extermination of the interdependancy and the the ability to sell services.

 

Well obviously I didn't break it down nearly as much as you did...but...

1) Player housing is completely independent of "Mayor".

2) Crafting is second to loot, of course, but the mechanics to craft remain from pre-NGE. I wasn't debating resource availability, simply the "mechanics".

3) Player Economy is still there - It's a complete mess/joke, but it wasn't removed with NGE like many other things.

4) When I think of "sandbox", I think of an OPEN game environment where I can go anywhere, do pretty much anything at any given time...level 5-90, I can do that in SWG still. You're talking about a much deeper problem with NGE than I was implying.

5) Non-combat classes may be useless due to loot, TCG and bots, but the ability to play a class other than combat is still there. That's the only point I was trying to make :)

Again, you're correct on everything you said, but that doesn't make me incorrect ;) 

  User Deleted
2/18/10 10:23:06 AM#29

I didn't read the whole thread, just the op.

I feel I need to remind you that SWG is not the only "sandbox" out there. Support the others (EVE, FE, Darkfall, MO, etc) to show that there IS a strong interest in a sandbox game. However no one can ever think that it's OK to do what SOE did to it's players, time and again.

 

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

2/18/10 12:26:59 PM#30
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by Troneas
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by Shelby13

Housing, Crafting, Spaceflight, Player Economy, Sandbox, Roleplay, Non-Combat Classes... most MMO's barely touch 1 or 2 of these kinds of 'features'.


 

Interesting...the only things you listed were things the NGE didn't change (minus economy). Just pointing it out, don't read more into it than that :)


 

nonesense.

 

housing: mayor profession was freely given to everyone without the need to give up any skill points in other profession.

crafting: crafting professions were made reduntant as they shifted to a loot based economy. crafters fled. new and old items conflicted with each other. people lost millions of credits in useless items or finding themselves incapable of competing with other crafters who had the competitive advantage of surplus stock (eg bio tissues for chefs)

player economy: see above.

sanbox: quest lines such as the legacy quest took away the creative freedom to put a player on a path for over 50 levels. quests issued huge benefits in terms of XP compared to other means which meant the natural way was to follow to kashyyyk and then to mustafar. interdependacy and cooperation between profession ended (cooperation later reinstated), penalties were removed and skills were replaced by a linear class system. grouping was discouraged by an evident advantage in solo and/or questing XP gain.

non-combar classes: rendered useless due to the loot based economy and extermination of the interdependancy and the the ability to sell services.

 

Well obviously I didn't break it down nearly as much as you did...but...

1) Player housing is completely independent of "Mayor".

2) Crafting is second to loot, of course, but the mechanics to craft remain from pre-NGE. I wasn't debating resource availability, simply the "mechanics".

3) Player Economy is still there - It's a complete mess/joke, but it wasn't removed with NGE like many other things.

4) When I think of "sandbox", I think of an OPEN game environment where I can go anywhere, do pretty much anything at any given time...level 5-90, I can do that in SWG still. You're talking about a much deeper problem with NGE than I was implying.

5) Non-combat classes may be useless due to loot, TCG and bots, but the ability to play a class other than combat is still there. That's the only point I was trying to make :)

Again, you're correct on everything you said, but that doesn't make me incorrect ;) 


 

you see for me literally removing a game mechanic or nerfing it to useless (or not the best option) is the same thing.

  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2941

Momento Mori

2/18/10 1:43:43 PM#31
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Originally posted by ArcAngel3

You know Esquire, when I first learned what STO was at launch, I had a very similar thought to yours.  It went something like, "wow man, these jokers make SWG look good lol."

Upon further reflection, I see both as flawed games.   They were both incomplete and bug-ridden at release.  They both have popular sci-fi IPs as their main draw; and both have a subscription fee, plus RMT money pits.  Tbh, I lump them both in the same category.

What I find extremely interesting is that the guy calling the shots for STO was a Vice President with SOE--no kidding.  It seems that he learned from the Master.  "There are always two, a Master and an apprentice."  I guess that's true after all lol.

I tried STO's beta, and was extremely disappointed by repeated crashes to desk-top.  Then I learned about the RMT crap for playable races with game-changing stat bonuses.  I voted with my wallet on that game, much like I voted against the NGE--and subsequent developments.

Did my vote count for anything?  Well, it's hard to say.  STO is now available at a discount price tho lol, already!  Maybe someone's getting some kind of message.  Smed also did acknowledge that NGE was a big mistake, and that many people voted with their feet.  I think that is in fact the right kind of message to send.

Meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken, games like EVE online continue to grow.  That's a sandbox space game, I believe, with a straight subscription model too.  Didn't it just win another gaming award?  Wouldn't surprise me.

 


 

In the STO Closed beta, I actualy liked the game when Cryptic was only letting the servers go up for 2-3 hours at a time.  It wasn't until they gave us a "leveling weekend", reset player progression and turned us loose that the "hey, this is really boring" posts came to be.  And you should of seen em,  very drastic.  Cryptic countered by saying we hadn't seen the complete game as yet, many systems were not put into the CB client and that they would try and move the "patrol" missions around some to break them up.  So, we held on until Open Beta.  When the same ideals hit the forums, they again said that not all game systems were in Open Beta, also.  Then Pre-launch came about.  When the exact same came up yet again, they pulled an SOE and just ignored the problem in it's entirty.  After launch, the problem seemed to grow incredibly with the no answer being the norm, now.

I have to admit, I do not see both games as flawed.  I see STO as being extreemly cheap, on the fly, copy/paiste rushed development.  Maybe, that could be flushed out in a year or 2 post launch, if they retain enough subs to make that worthy.  Sadly, I'm not going to be one of them.  It's just that boring and that bad to me.

I see SWG as a game that once had me activly anticipating my time in the game.  Had my mind drifting, even sitting down reviewing a case file at work, to what I was about to accomplish or the next thing on the game plan for my character(s), city, houses, guild, etc.  I remember that anticipation of the community, what their interests were, what they needed to make their toons/etc complete.  That has never happened again.  Most who I speak to on SWG, had the same feeling about whatever version they started playing.  It appears that Shelby got the same thing out of NGE, I know that my wife did as she still continues on and started just before GU-3.  I never let her put points in what she was going to lose so she never experienced that feeling of loss in a patch, either. I see SWG as a total mismanaged game.  I, and maybe 300,000 others were willing to overlook the bugs, do work-arounds, etc to continue.  I see SWG as a CHANGED product, many times, and in many variations, that appeals to less and less as the CHANGES took place.  But, I still see SWG as something special, in the way of games and in experimentation, I guess.

No other game has even came close as you say about STO, "these jokers make SWG look good".  A year or so ago, I had the privilage of having a months long pm convo with Chris Klug, an Professor in MMO development and the Creative Director of SGW.  I found him extreemly versed in MMO development, marketing, etc.  And when the subject at hand got around to sandbox, he said about the same thing as the writer here at MMORPG.com just did about sandbox.  That storyline based MMOs were where "it's at, now" and when I posed my argument to that point, I was asked, "Hey, aren't you one of the guys over at the MMORPG.com refuge forums that hates SWG?"  Shoulda tipped me off right there, but I blew past that with, any hatred I have is for the administrator of SWG, not for the game, itself.  So, I guess he got that out of what we're doing here.  A misconstrued message, probably somewhere out of the middle of what us and SOE have been putting out.  (SOE spin-) SOE had such a bad game they had to CHANGE it in a massive manner and without coming here and reading the message, he assumed that we were just touting how bad it was.

To be honest, I believe we have made somewhat of a difference.  Like I said before, if you have almost 1/2 million out there that have nothing good to say, that is going to picked up by someone.  SOE sure thinks we have made a difference, at least that their spin, anyway.  With their downgrading of past customers being their total problem,per them, and to a certain percentage, I would guess they are right.  We are a vocal group.  We do not shy away from telling others about the mismanagement of SWG.  We have no qualms about touting how our favorite game or product we were paying for was CHANGED on us, in a single day, with a single patch, and we warn everyone who will listen.  Expecially if the industry accepts that the message is miscontrued  to the point of SWG is just bad.

As I asked before;  has our message, with all the good intentions in the world, been miscontrued to the point of........... that we will never experience a decent game made in the sandbox model again?  How can a AAA studio, or a group of investors, for that matter, actualy sit around a table and discuss making another attempt while the only sandbox MMO (and yes, I am aware that the sandbox was what SOE tried to destroy with CU/NGE), outside of Eve which is known as a niche game, flounders?  Have we been great at our volume control and not so good with the content of the message as a whole?  Or has SOE polluted the message with their usual spin?  Either way, looks to me now, like we both, SOE and us, lose. They lose their game to loss of subs and we don't have 1 to play, either.  Altho, a good flightless bird can still make us come out on top, I guess.


 

I think I'd agree with your points: STO=cheap, rushed, copy/paste; and SWG = mismanaged.  Pretty good summary if you ask me.

Regarding messages, I think SOE did get one thing clearly from us: "Do not entirely change a live game."  Tbh I still think there are communication issues about the whole sandbox deal.  Some still seem convinced that sandbox = bad because the original SWG didn't keep pace with WoW, or because it was losing subs prior to the big revamps.

I know what my message has been about this: "highly polished linear game will do better than badly broken sandbox game any day of the week."  For me, the big difference is highly polished versus badly broken.  It's never been about linear or sandbox. 

In fact, despite its linear quests, WoW offers an incredible diversity of gameplay.  When I played I had people wanting to swim with me, get me drunk, have a picnic and show me their otter--I think that's some kind of shape-shifting avatar btw lol.  There's a lot more to WoW than kill, loot repeat.  I also think SOE missed the boat there too tbh.

Btw, I've seen how they do marketting research at two of the big MMO houses.  Some of it I've seen first hand.  Either the research is really, really, really poorly done (any student in my first year research class would get an F) or the conclusions formed by MMO devs and execs are badly skewed by their own presumptions and agendas.  It's a mess.  If this kind of research keeps motivating MMO development, we're in for a long wait before another good game comes along.

  Esquire1980

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 530

 
OP  2/18/10 3:04:57 PM#32

Ohhh, SOE mismanagement.  If you remember the excelant post you made on the "mari-time" history of SWG (A Perfect Storm) which I added to with the history (Titanic) of NGE to the then current SWG, it was repleat with bad decision after bad decision.  Never bothering to look back and see why 1 or all of them failed miserably or at the least, never getting the crux of the idea.  I actualy had a guy email me a link to that posting 3 or 4 months ago.  Man, it's back there now.  lol

Sad to see that the management via SOE has now come down to being blamed on sandbox.  I agree. it may be a long time, indeed, before we see another attempt.  Your right on the research that the MMO industry does.  If I had a para-legal, much less a 1st year menber of the Bar (industry so called research professionals) that came up with just some of the same conclusions that these people have came up with, they'd be outta here so fast their head would swim. 

Damn shame we can see it, being outside the industry, and the professionals can't.

  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2941

Momento Mori

2/18/10 11:21:04 PM#33

Yeah, I remember those posts lol.  I haven't thought about them in a while, but they were fun to write and read.  You know, I do find a couple of things kind of hopeful when it comes to MMOs these days:

-The staff writers here are highlighting some important issues in the genre.  Case in point, Jon Wood just did a good article on how Community Managers should not confuse their role with that of someone in the marketting department.  A recent article on why some MMOs have failed was also really well done imo.  So, some of the MMO big-wigs might not get it, but a lot of people who know the genre and write columns about it are seeing some of the same important issues.  I think that's good.

-There's a movement towards open source online games made just for fun by and for computer enthusiasts.  I'm exploring this, and enjoying myself.  It's a bit like the pioneer days of MMOs--more interest in games, computers and gamers than on cash grabs.  All of these are free of course, with no cash shop.  It's a lot like the Indie music scene which I'm also a part of ^_^.  Have a studio in my home, and have a friend that runs an online distribution site for Indie musicians.  We really can have fun without someone trying to own it, package it, sell it, and drain our lines of credit lol.

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2217

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

2/21/10 10:08:28 PM#34
Originally posted by Esquire1980

Ohhh, SOE mismanagement.  If you remember the excelant post you made on the "mari-time" history of SWG (A Perfect Storm) which I added to with the history (Titanic) of NGE to the then current SWG, it was repleat with bad decision after bad decision.  Never bothering to look back and see why 1 or all of them failed miserably or at the least, never getting the crux of the idea.  I actualy had a guy email me a link to that posting 3 or 4 months ago.  Man, it's back there now.  lol

Sad to see that the management via SOE has now come down to being blamed on sandbox.  I agree. it may be a long time, indeed, before we see another attempt.  Your right on the research that the MMO industry does.  If I had a para-legal, much less a 1st year menber of the Bar (industry so called research professionals) that came up with just some of the same conclusions that these people have came up with, they'd be outta here so fast their head would swim. 

Damn shame we can see it, being outside the industry, and the professionals can't.


 

They will.  Of that I'm sure of.

It might not be overnight.  It might not be for a few years.  But the one thng I know about computer gaming is that trends tend to reach a peak and then collapse under their own weight.  After they do, they get better.

I saw it with platformers.  I saw it with FPS.  I saw it with RTS, god games, and action/adventure titles.  All of them started out with one, big "must have" title, followed by a bunch of clones and sequals until some other genre that breaks the mold comes along.

This industry is ripe for that sort of revolution.  I realized this when a bunch of CoH players I was gaming with today were so fixated on talking about Mass Effect 2 on broadcast.  I have to imagine that the same conversations are going on in WoW's broadcast channels.  To me, this is a sign that the genre is dying, and it's dying because in its attempt to mimic the kind of gameplay found in action/adventure games, they are unable to duplicate the kind of gameplay you get from an action adventure game done well.

It seems like a long time now, but I remember back when action/adventure games were king in the '90s.  We had good ones (Soul Reaver, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil), very bad sequals (Blood Omen 2, Metal Gear Solid 2, Resident Evil 4), and even worse clones (Dino Crisis).  Ironically, this is when people started to turn to MMOs.  And the reasons they turned to MMOs was because MMOs had a much different appeal than the "loot, level, zone, boss" gameplay that was worked to death in action/adventure grind mills like Capcom and Konami.

How ironic is it that MMOs are now working the whole "loot, level, zone, boss" formula to death?  And with worse art and no cutscenes to boot!

Design is stagnant.  All the innovation has come via the business end, but to me, most of the business end is no longer aimed at attracting new blood to the format.  RMT today is about extracting as much wealth from the current players as possible as fast as possible, all in an attempt to get as much money as possible from players before they churn...and they churn faster now than ever before.

Make no mistake, this genre is in for rough times, and I think sooner rather than later.  That's because there are so many better games out there; cheaper, more innovative, and more interesting.  Everything that is around now has already been done to death, there really isn't anywhere they can go in this current model: creatively or financially.

And when this genre does tank, it will take awhile before new MMOs start to appear.  But those MMOs will be better, just like action/adventure titles and RTS titles are better today than they were 10 years ago.

But to get back to the point of the thread, I think our "protest" won't be misconstrued.  Our departue was neither unprecedented, nor because of the concept--good or bad.  We left because our rulebooks became useless, and only a fool would continue on in a system where you didn't even know from day to day what game you were playing...and we aren't even talking min/maxing stuff or FOTM.  Were talking about basic things, like "how do I move?" and "how do I shoot?"

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Tacola

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/25/05
Posts: 263

2/22/10 3:02:26 PM#35
Originally posted by Troneas
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by Shelby13

Housing, Crafting, Spaceflight, Player Economy, Sandbox, Roleplay, Non-Combat Classes... most MMO's barely touch 1 or 2 of these kinds of 'features'.


 

Interesting...the only things you listed were things the NGE didn't change (minus economy). Just pointing it out, don't read more into it than that :)


 

nonesense.

 

housing: mayor profession was freely given to everyone without the need to give up any skill points in other profession.

crafting: crafting professions were made reduntant as they shifted to a loot based economy. crafters fled. new and old items conflicted with each other. people lost millions of credits in useless items or finding themselves incapable of competing with other crafters who had the competitive advantage of surplus stock (eg bio tissues for chefs)

player economy: see above.

sanbox: quest lines such as the legacy quest took away the creative freedom to put a player on a path for over 50 levels. quests issued huge benefits in terms of XP compared to other means which meant the natural way was to follow to kashyyyk and then to mustafar. interdependacy and cooperation between profession ended (cooperation later reinstated), penalties were removed and skills were replaced by a linear class system. grouping was discouraged by an evident advantage in solo and/or questing XP gain.

non-combar classes: rendered useless due to the loot based economy and extermination of the interdependancy and the the ability to sell services.

Yes, SWG has changed alot since the NGE bomb hit.   It isn't a loot based economy now.  Some loot items are very nice and sell for lots because of their rarity. 

But, as a chef and tailor and returning disgruntled vet (stayed for CU, but left for NGE), I sell food and I make custom SEAs using RE for people every time I log in. Being able to make additives now is the biggest change since NGE for chefs.  No longer are the chef's who stockpiled additives able to rule the market alone. People ask for my services as I do other from crafters in other area's.  

Crafters make money now that is for sure =).  And of course there is no game that comes close to SWG in the crafting methods, experimentation, Resources stats, factory runs. 

Crafters being needed now is a good change for the post-NGE era.  I think I was madder about the crafter stuff than the fact I did the jedi grind and now you can start jedi!!   Of course you cant get a lightsaber until lvl30 or so.

But, to the op's point.  Quiting in mass showed SOE that what they did to change the entire combat structure was not a good idea.   It is not a sandbox game anymore than WoW is now.  But I am sure judging for what I saw when I quit amonth or so after NGE , SWG is doing alot better.  The server merges were long over due. So, at this point not playing is pointless, when really it is probably one of the best existing MMO's out there right now.   Not playing is only keeping you from potentially enjoying the game.

This from a pre-cu, pre-nge vet who canceled his account because of NGE and now on his second return to the game likes it. 

 PS: I did have to move from Corbantis, it is no more  /salute Corbantis.   Now on starsider and bloodfin now.

  ericlatrelle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/07
Posts: 190

2/22/10 9:20:13 PM#36
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by Esquire1980

Ohhh, SOE mismanagement.  If you remember the excelant post you made on the "mari-time" history of SWG (A Perfect Storm) which I added to with the history (Titanic) of NGE to the then current SWG, it was repleat with bad decision after bad decision.  Never bothering to look back and see why 1 or all of them failed miserably or at the least, never getting the crux of the idea.  I actualy had a guy email me a link to that posting 3 or 4 months ago.  Man, it's back there now.  lol

Sad to see that the management via SOE has now come down to being blamed on sandbox.  I agree. it may be a long time, indeed, before we see another attempt.  Your right on the research that the MMO industry does.  If I had a para-legal, much less a 1st year menber of the Bar (industry so called research professionals) that came up with just some of the same conclusions that these people have came up with, they'd be outta here so fast their head would swim. 

Damn shame we can see it, being outside the industry, and the professionals can't.


 

They will.  Of that I'm sure of.

It might not be overnight.  It might not be for a few years.  But the one thng I know about computer gaming is that trends tend to reach a peak and then collapse under their own weight.  After they do, they get better.

I saw it with platformers.  I saw it with FPS.  I saw it with RTS, god games, and action/adventure titles.  All of them started out with one, big "must have" title, followed by a bunch of clones and sequals until some other genre that breaks the mold comes along.

This industry is ripe for that sort of revolution.  I realized this when a bunch of CoH players I was gaming with today were so fixated on talking about Mass Effect 2 on broadcast.  I have to imagine that the same conversations are going on in WoW's broadcast channels.  To me, this is a sign that the genre is dying, and it's dying because in its attempt to mimic the kind of gameplay found in action/adventure games, they are unable to duplicate the kind of gameplay you get from an action adventure game done well.

It seems like a long time now, but I remember back when action/adventure games were king in the '90s.  We had good ones (Soul Reaver, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil), very bad sequals (Blood Omen 2, Metal Gear Solid 2, Resident Evil 4), and even worse clones (Dino Crisis).  Ironically, this is when people started to turn to MMOs.  And the reasons they turned to MMOs was because MMOs had a much different appeal than the "loot, level, zone, boss" gameplay that was worked to death in action/adventure grind mills like Capcom and Konami.

How ironic is it that MMOs are now working the whole "loot, level, zone, boss" formula to death?  And with worse art and no cutscenes to boot!

Design is stagnant.  All the innovation has come via the business end, but to me, most of the business end is no longer aimed at attracting new blood to the format.  RMT today is about extracting as much wealth from the current players as possible as fast as possible, all in an attempt to get as much money as possible from players before they churn...and they churn faster now than ever before.

Make no mistake, this genre is in for rough times, and I think sooner rather than later.  That's because there are so many better games out there; cheaper, more innovative, and more interesting.  Everything that is around now has already been done to death, there really isn't anywhere they can go in this current model: creatively or financially.

And when this genre does tank, it will take awhile before new MMOs start to appear.  But those MMOs will be better, just like action/adventure titles and RTS titles are better today than they were 10 years ago.

But to get back to the point of the thread, I think our "protest" won't be misconstrued.  Our departue was neither unprecedented, nor because of the concept--good or bad.  We left because our rulebooks became useless, and only a fool would continue on in a system where you didn't even know from day to day what game you were playing...and we aren't even talking min/maxing stuff or FOTM.  Were talking about basic things, like "how do I move?" and "how do I shoot?"

 

Excellent post. Especially the highlighted.

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

2/23/10 12:38:44 AM#37

NEVER buy lifetime subs, that's like selling your soul to the devil and you'll never get it back.


STO bombed, I saw it coming from a mile away, I played in the beta myself and wasn't all that impressed. MMO games seem to be fading from my interest because of bad title after title, SWTOR may be my last shot at it, I've gone back to FPS games and playing my XBox 360 once in a while.


  Esquire1980

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 530

 
OP  2/23/10 12:16:03 PM#38
Originally posted by sookster54

NEVER buy lifetime subs, that's like selling your soul to the devil and you'll never get it back.


STO bombed, I saw it coming from a mile away, I played in the beta myself and wasn't all that impressed. MMO games seem to be fading from my interest because of bad title after title, SWTOR may be my last shot at it, I've gone back to FPS games and playing my XBox 360 once in a while.


 

This is happening to me, also.  Not playing anything as there is really nothing that "flips my trigger", expecially like SWG did.  Playing my old Super Nintendo now with Romance of the Three Kingdons, III.

I have to give Cryptic credit, they did refund my lifetime sub.  Altho, California has some of the most stringent Consumer Protection Statutes on the books and probably would have bore some brunt because of that if they didn't make the refunds.  All I had to say, was they touted game systems, before the launch, that were not included in the released game and the guy went, "I'm gonna put you on hold now, so I can get your refund completed".

ST:O still could be a decent game if they take the next 2 years and put in the right things.  The 64 dollar question there is, will they have enough subs in the mean time to do that post launch development or will they only have enough left to put it in maintenance mode?

  Lady_Fei

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/21/08
Posts: 17

2/24/10 4:52:30 PM#39

My continued boycott of SOE is a result of the way I was treated personally as a customer.

 

My game was discontinued, and replaced with a product I never bought, and when I voiced my concerns about it to "the powers that be", I was subsequently ignored. Even after pleading in the forums for weeks for a few simple UI changes that would have made the NGE much,much easier to stomach, and seeing SOE give zero interest in how I felt about the product.

 

I continue to refuse to do business with SOE, or buy any SONY products of any kind, because of their insulting behavior, and the fact that they ignored me, until years later when they realized that they had made more than a few wrong choices. It's too late to apologize now.

 

I don't think the industry in general is impacted at all by this, other than feeling a great sense of trepidation with every new project, knowing that the consumer DOES have a line in the sand, and if that line is crossed, things can get ugly.

  Esquire1980

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 530

 
OP  2/24/10 7:24:10 PM#40
Originally posted by Lady_Fei

My continued boycott of SOE is a result of the way I was treated personally as a customer.

 

My game was discontinued, and replaced with a product I never bought, and when I voiced my concerns about it to "the powers that be", I was subsequently ignored. Even after pleading in the forums for weeks for a few simple UI changes that would have made the NGE much,much easier to stomach, and seeing SOE give zero interest in how I felt about the product.

 

I continue to refuse to do business with SOE, or buy any SONY products of any kind, because of their insulting behavior, and the fact that they ignored me, until years later when they realized that they had made more than a few wrong choices. It's too late to apologize now.

 

I don't think the industry in general is impacted at all by this, other than feeling a great sense of trepidation with every new project, knowing that the consumer DOES have a line in the sand, and if that line is crossed, things can get ugly.


 

I understand, completly.  But, then, we all lose.  SWG goes downhill further (and with SOE pulling the strings, that's pretty easy), and we don't have a game to play.  I haven't heard of 1 person on these boards talking about another game like we all talk about our versions of "old" SWG and how much we enjoyed it.

However, I really don't agree on the industry part of this.  I believe we have had an impact, how much, is debateable.  We are not the only ones that are not subbed simply due to the fact that SOE mismanaged SWG even to that point.  And while we are doing that, no sandbox games, outside of a few "indie" studios are coming out.  Just more and more WoWified clones, not even as good as the original, expecting to make a few bucks off the box sales and throwing the long term to the winds.

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