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Originally posted by Haegemon
And there are MMO devs who will do things differently, who are doing things differently, and who are planning to do things differently.
But all of those Devs, and about the dozen titles that could fill those three criteria, all have one thing in common: 
They are working with their own IP, and not licensing a well known one out.
 
SWTOR will play it safe. It will have some innovation to it, no doubt, but that'll be in the story delivery, instanced out and metered. The gameplay, the nuts/bolts, that'll be whats safe, whats famliliar, and what actually will get the attention of the large market. As is true for most games, there are more people playing the game usually at any given time than who regularly read/post to that games forums over a 3mo period.
That's not to say suggestions and innovations don't come from forums, they do, but over a long-term period of time, do you listen more to the 100k that are playing, or the 10k that are posting?

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And unfortunately for us, when big titles like SWTOR and STO decide to play it safe they set a lower standard for many other developers out there that they too can play it safe. Sadly, this has indeed become the trend in this undustry.

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Originally posted by Saerain
It seems to me that the sudden decline in MMOs to my interest perfectly coincided with the recession, and it is only now that we're sort of clawing out of it that I start to see a faint light ahead. I imagine that publishers will need a more stable economy in order to regrow their balls.
 

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Originally posted by biofellis
People keep saying "If the producers/developers blahblah, why wouldn't they blahblah if it would work?- it's in their best interests.", which might as well translate to "my boss hired me to do a job where I work. I do a good job, so my boss always listens to my suggestions, though he doesn't always implement them... because it's in his best interests" Which you know is silly to say. It happens- but it's the exception, not the rule.
These huge machines of investment and creation need to produce. And once producing, they 'need' to be left alone. Not really- but why mess with it? Make the changes they have to. None more unless they're sure it'll make more money.
I don't even want to think about the rat's nests the code bases are. Ive seen commercial code before- a lot of it you'd be surprised works at all.
So, these concepts aren't overlooked. They were more likely looked at, evaluated as being more costly/complex with less benefits/draw and ignored. Doesn't mean they can't work- but soon as one company fails with one of these ideas, any board meeting where it's mentioned & some smart-ass will say- "Yeah, non combat classes sure did SWG a lot of good..."
But 'believing in', or trying to 'appeal to' the suits has pretty much failed for some time.
Time to learn to code...
:)

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Yah, it is unfortunate. I also understand there is a money issue involved in the decline of the MMO, but one must also look at the fact that Cryptic and NCSoft were not exactly scrounging for money to finish their products. They both had somewhat stable sources of revenue to pay for their current projects. The problem is these big companies have lost the passion for their product, and I guess that may be part of the issue.

So how many other non-licensed, P2P games that either came out recently or are coming out are playing it safe?

Fallen Earth is playing it safe?

Darkfall's playing it safe?

Mortal Online playing it safe?

Earthrise playing it safe?

Black Prophecy playing it safe?

All Points Bulliten playing it safe?

Lego Universe playing it safe?

While each of these games have their own quirks to them, none are really playing it safe. Lego even has an IP behind it.

There are devs making the more innovative games.

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Originally posted by Haegemon
So how many other non-licensed, P2P games that either came out recently or are coming out are playing it safe?
 
Fallen Earth is playing it safe?
Darkfall's playing it safe?
Mortal Online playing it safe?
Earthrise playing it safe?
Black Prophecy playing it safe?
All Points Bulliten playing it safe?
Lego Universe playing it safe?
 
While each of these games have their own quirks to them, none are really playing it safe. Lego even has an IP behind it.
There are devs making the more innovative games.

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If you actually read the OP, it stated that I was only referring to games that have already been released. Also, I was talking about major developers, since when did Icarus Studios become a major developer? You can't honestly comment on Earthrise, Black Prophecy, All Points Bulletin, or Lego Universe because you have not played them. Plus more than half the games you listed are made by indie companies.

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Originally posted by MisterSr

 

Anarchy Online

This game has a unique skill system in that it doesn't have defined classes, but instead 83 different skills placed under subsets that can be combined in any way. As the player gains levels they gain skill points to place into these skills. Any character can access and increase any skill. The character's profession, however, provides unique resources—"perks", "alien perks", "research", and "nano programs"—that increase specific skill further. Along with this, equipment plays a vital role in characters class and skills, with 58 slots to place gear. The gear system was based on what skills the player had picked, giving some semblance of a skill system.   

Sorry? No defined classes? What about Adventurer, Agent, Bureaucrat, Doctor, Enforcer, Engineer, Fixer, Keeper, Martial Artist, Meta-Physicist, Nano-Technician, Shade, Soldier and Trader?

Also Most Nano programs as well as some Perks/Alien perks and research are class locked.

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Originally posted by kgibsonuk

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Originally posted by MisterSr

 
Anarchy Online
This game has a unique skill system in that it doesn't have defined classes, but instead 83 different skills placed under subsets that can be combined in any way. As the player gains levels they gain skill points to place into these skills. Any character can access and increase any skill. The character's profession, however, provides unique resources—"perks", "alien perks", "research", and "nano programs"—that increase specific skill further. Along with this, equipment plays a vital role in characters class and skills, with 58 slots to place gear. The gear system was based on what skills the player had picked, giving some semblance of a skill system.   

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Sorry? No defined classes? What about Adventurer, Agent, Bureaucrat, Doctor, Enforcer, Engineer, Fixer, Keeper, Martial Artist, Meta-Physicist, Nano-Technician, Shade, Soldier and Trader?
Also Most Nano programs as well as some Perks/Alien perks and research are class locked.
 

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They are less defined than other mmos. The "classes" are defined by the subsets, but still really aren't defined like in WoW.

Originally posted by MisterSr

 

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Originally posted by kgibsonuk

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Originally posted by MisterSr

 

 
Anarchy Online
This game has a unique skill system in that it doesn't have defined classes, but instead 83 different skills placed under subsets that can be combined in any way. As the player gains levels they gain skill points to place into these skills. Any character can access and increase any skill. The character's profession, however, provides unique resources—"perks", "alien perks", "research", and "nano programs"—that increase specific skill further. Along with this, equipment plays a vital role in characters class and skills, with 58 slots to place gear. The gear system was based on what skills the player had picked, giving some semblance of a skill system.   

 

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Sorry? No defined classes? What about Adventurer, Agent, Bureaucrat, Doctor, Enforcer, Engineer, Fixer, Keeper, Martial Artist, Meta-Physicist, Nano-Technician, Shade, Soldier and Trader?
Also Most Nano programs as well as some Perks/Alien perks and research are class locked.
 

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They are less defined than other mmos. The "classes" are defined by the subsets, but still really aren't defined like in WoW.

So you have gone from "No defined classes" to "Less defined than other MMO's"?

I fail to see how they are less defined than for instance WoW. Enforcers for example are the typical tank class, Doctors the typical healer class, Shades are melee damage etc. Could you clarify how you think the classes are less defined as to me it sounds like you haven't even played the game. If not can you tell us where you are getting this information which to me is completely incorrect.

 Most overlooked concept of all time: Penalties based on where you get hit. =P

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Originally posted by biofellis

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Originally posted by Haegemon

So how many other non-licensed, P2P games that either came out recently or are coming out are playing it safe?
 
Fallen Earth is playing it safe?
Darkfall's playing it safe?
Mortal Online playing it safe?
Earthrise playing it safe?
Black Prophecy playing it safe?
All Points Bulliten playing it safe?
Lego Universe playing it safe?
 
While each of these games have their own quirks to them, none are really playing it safe. Lego even has an IP behind it.
There are devs making the more innovative games.

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I'm not familiar with all those games- and 'safe-ify' and 'playing it safe' are a little different- but granted, there will be exceptions. Niche markets/upstarts are where the growth and innovation are going to be seen, if anywhere.
I think if you look at any of your listed games, and gauge if they have changed for the better of the customer (not patched/fixed- even expanded) since inception then that's possibly a guage of progress/improvement- and I'd definitely be wrong- and that'd be good. But for 300+ games, mostly knockoffs, reskins, or just plain uninspired...

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I agree, there are innovations done for the customer, and there innovations done just to say you did something different.

 Ignoring my previous post  MisterSR? I'll take that as agreement that your original point regarding AO was completely incorrect.

I love the sound of non-combat character classes.  I've been getting very bored of games which require the player to murder a certain number of forest creatures before moving on with the game, and I would love to take part in a game where-in I could go through without ever having to kill ten rats.  Either basing my gameplay on political pursuits, or entirely around creating weaponry or armor for others, or what have you.  The other details seem like nice features, but none of them would grab my attention nearly as quickly as non-combat builds.

Originally posted by kgibsonuk

So you have gone from "No defined classes" to "Less defined than other MMO's"?

He's changed definitions or conditions a few times so far in this thread. What's one more. :)

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Originally posted by kgibsonuk
 Ignoring my previous post  MisterSR? I'll take that as agreement that your original point regarding AO was completely incorrect.

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I ignored your post because you obviously have no clue of what I mean by less defined, or "Not defined". They are less defined in the progression of actually getting to the class, you don't start off from level 1 being the exact class you are going to end up being later on, because you pick various skills from a set of 80 some odd skills. Anyways, Lokto, I am sorry that you feel the absolute need to be a forum vulture and rip and pick apart my thread. I was just stating my opinion, sorry if that is a crime.

Originally posted by MisterSr

 

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Originally posted by kgibsonuk
 Ignoring my previous post  MisterSR? I'll take that as agreement that your original point regarding AO was completely incorrect.

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I ignored your post because you obviously have no clue of what I mean by less defined, or "Not defined". They are less defined in the progression of actually getting to the class, you don't start off from level 1 being the exact class you are going to end up being later on, because you pick various skills from a set of 80 some odd skills. Anyways, Lokto, I am sorry that you feel the absolute need to be a forum vulture and rip and pick apart my thread. I was just stating my opinion, sorry if that is a crime.

Obviously you have no clue about AO. Yes there are 80 odd skills such as dodge ranged, Dodge close combat, tradeskills etc that you can chose from which enhance you character however the basic class is the same at level 1 as it is at level 220. You can not for instance chose a melee class such as shade and modify it's skills to become a ranged class without severely gimping yourself in the process. You seem to have the impression that any class can do anything with some magic combination of chosen stats/skills/nano's which as anyone who has played AO will tell you is completely not true.

You obviously didn't play AC2... Great system for PvP (Choose sides aka realms to fight with) Tree system where you can spend your points into what ever, hybrid classes, fully going into a class etc...

PvP also had a tree system better you PvP XP from winning battles etc... You could get put your PvP points in for spells etc.

RIP AC2 may you rise back soon!

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Originally posted by kgibsonuk

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Originally posted by MisterSr

 

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Originally posted by kgibsonuk
 Ignoring my previous post  MisterSR? I'll take that as agreement that your original point regarding AO was completely incorrect.

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I ignored your post because you obviously have no clue of what I mean by less defined, or "Not defined". They are less defined in the progression of actually getting to the class, you don't start off from level 1 being the exact class you are going to end up being later on, because you pick various skills from a set of 80 some odd skills. Anyways, Lokto, I am sorry that you feel the absolute need to be a forum vulture and rip and pick apart my thread. I was just stating my opinion, sorry if that is a crime.

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Obviously you have no clue about AO. Yes there are 80 odd skills such as dodge ranged, Dodge close combat, tradeskills etc that you can chose from which enhance you character however the basic class is the same at level 1 as it is at level 220. You can not for instance chose a melee class such as shade and modify it's skills to become a ranged class without severely gimping yourself in the process. You seem to have the impression that any class can do anything with some magic combination of chosen stats/skills/nano's which as anyone who has played AO will tell you is completely not true.

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I am not saying that either. Let me RE-EXPLAIN the system so you will get off my back. Okay obviously you are confused by what I mean, and I don't believe every class can do everything. Okay so you start off, you make your character, pick his humanoid type race, whatever, then you get to the class menu, you pick your class out of about 14 different classes (Obviously a Doctor won't do the same thing as say a Martial Artist or a Shade. Now once you get there you advance your character and pick out 83 different skill points which affect the way your character is played. The point I was trying to highlight was the armor and the ways skills affected it, not the skill system itself.

Those idea do hold promise I think, you just have to do them right.

5.  For homes and cities, it is great on paper, but I played SWG and Wurm Online, and I am not impressed.  Player made cities thus far as just been rows or boring shacks located in  a general area.  They need more personality and purpose.  Maybe the cities have an architectural theme everyone must adhere to.  Maybe they have some other theme like religious, business, military, entertainment, so that certain NPCs move in when your city expands to provide different services based around the theme you choose.  And for that matter the fun thing about houses is to decorate them, not build, I am looking at you Wurm, having to build your house is just droll, especially when all you end up with is a generic shack, I think all you should need is money no building skill or the like.

4.  Non combat professions could be neat, but useually non combat professions juat do not have enough content to warrant  making anything more than a diversion.  Even crafting is usually spotty on content, you can always add more materials and recipes or a minigame but in the end you are just grinding.  Maybe if non combat players actually had more to do than just grind up their level, if they could have as much variety as a combat oriented character and played a more interesting role other than just making crap to sell to people or dancing or whatever.

3.  I do like the 3 faction idea.  I guess you could get the same thing by letting players make their own factions but frankly I don't like the guild drama and power struggles that come out of player made factions so i can't say I would recomend them.

2.  I agree better stories would help a lot.  I actualy think it is better to have a shorter but better story than a long one that has good parts but also has a lot of filler like "go kill 10 beavers" you don't need filer to keep people playing, that is what PvP and raiding are for.  I also think if you are going to have a story then you should be able to makes choices, I think SW:TOR is going this, and that the choices should impact your character in some way.

1.  Agree but I will say making an interesting character is more than just giving the players a bunch of generic skill and telling them to level some of them, the player should feel like their character is a complete character rather than a uninspirering mish mosh.  I really like the way Champions did it, sans the balance issues of course, having themed sets that you could pick individual abilities from or indeed stick entirely to one set if you desired is more like a fancy multiclass system but it really lets you make some original characters.  And when I say original I also mean good, it is easy to make an original character with typical skill system that can sneak, heal, has an axe and uses fire magic, but more often than not such characters are just really stupid even though they may be powerful.