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2/05/10 8:14:01 PM#81
You should try Darkfall OP! The PvE doesn't revolve around questing so no need for your KTR quests or fedex quests. No Levels No Classes No oversized weapons and armor, just realistic looking stuff People use voicecomms instead of chatboxes to communicate Ok.. it does have elves but 4 out of 5 isn't bad eh. :P |
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2/05/10 8:27:25 PM#82
Originally posted by docminus
True, not that Im not a fan but it is a bit overused, if they want to go skimpy thats fine but perhaps they could cover logily vital parts; she will have her nipples covered of course with small shields but her heart, gut, etc completly bare is more or less completly exposed, massive sholder pads but waste down she is in a thong and boots. You can go revealing or even slutty and still have some apperance of logicle armor factor, there are other options besides crome bikini
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2/06/10 11:44:28 AM#83
Originally posted by William Murphy I'm sorry but this is just completely wrong. Fantasy is beloved by more people than you can imagine, including me. I am sick of seeing science fiction games, but I understand that there are a lot of people that go nuts for it. I wouldn't dismiss a whole genre just because I personally don't like it. Also, just because Blizzard has a stranglehold on easy, themepark fantasy doesn't mean that sandbox fantasy can't thrive. I am looking forward to The Elder Scrolls MMO, Final Fantasy XIV, and Mortal Online... let's see that's fantasy, fantasy, and... fantasy. I love fantasy, I live for fantasy, and you should really think before you type something so egregious and blatantly wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------- "I have no idea what''s going on." - Tasos Flambouras |
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2/06/10 2:36:01 PM#84
I think one of the worst things ever introduced to mmorpgs is global chat. |
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2/06/10 2:59:01 PM#85
Well said, and timely too. I view most of these as being "standard items" on an MMO design checklist now. Not because they're necessary or fun, but because they're held over from the days when that was about all the technology could accomplish. Interestingly, virtual environments (including those that are not games) have proved that you don't need to fill up a player's time with dreck quests. As long as there's some interactivity in the environment, players will create their own time-wasters in the game. As proof, check out CoX's Costume Contests, which are player run, player funded, and happen about 30 times a day lol. Because it's fun to bring what you've made in the Costume Designer to a contest, and worth bonus points if you got a rare piece from a quest to put in your costume. So frankly, I think designers should dump all of the deliberate time-wasters and just put in things that players can use creatively to make some fun happen.
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2/06/10 3:00:47 PM#86
Originally posted by Jitzukai
Yes and no, makes a world feel less empty. You can turn it off. I think the easying of a game to push people to endgame fast is 100 times worse |
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2/06/10 3:27:02 PM#87
Originally posted by Jitzukai
Global chat was introduced to compensate for the retard design decision of limiting travel "to make the world seem bigger," as it did little else other than make it harder for players to congregate. Rather than admit they hosed travel, most developers added in clan houses or clan ownership locations, with recall or telport systems to get to them based on the false belief that the guild you join in a gear-dependent levelfest has any particular overlap with the people you choose to interact with ingame.
Yeah... I have no affinity for global chat in most MMOs :)
Sandpark: The MMO gamer's way to say "I have no clue what I am talking about." |
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2/06/10 10:44:57 PM#88
I love a good cliche. So do my toons :-)
Ken
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2/07/10 4:22:35 AM#89
You could have added "Crossroad" There is a famous crossroad place in about every mmorpg :) |
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2/07/10 5:30:27 AM#90
Originally posted by HardcoreHero
I don't think he meant to put it that way. I do love my fantasy games(also looking forward to an TES MMO) but like he said, its alittle over used as a genre. I just think that they should try to make other genre of games. Though, I don't most of the sci-fi games.(looking forward to Stargate Worlds and and StarWars MMo though*)
* Only because I'm a fan of those two series. :)
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2/07/10 7:57:04 AM#91
Funny how UO avoided 5 of your 7. EQ was the inventor of many of these. I still feel EQ hurt the genre more than any other game. |
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2/07/10 12:50:28 PM#92
the "fedex" quests really piss me the F*&% off, and yes it is a hand holding tool. Elder scrolls online: Voice your concerns here :http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php |
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2/07/10 3:08:36 PM#93
"#6 The Holy Trinity This is one I'm tossing into the list, even though I've come to accept it as an inevitability of design "
Smart man. Saying the archetypes of tank/healer/nuker are an overused convention is like saying wings on a plane are an overused convention. That is to say, when I think on the few games that went in for the "be anything you want to be" class design, all I can think of is that they SUCKED. ALL. DAY. LONG.
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2/07/10 3:56:42 PM#94
Originally posted by Scottgun
I beg to differ. I just think much of our thinking has been trapped into this mold and find it harder and harder to perceive a reality without it as more and more games utilize it. STO is a great example (and a bit ridiculous, at least in regards to spaceships), they practically utilize the trinity on their space combat, which to me is a bit absurd. How about a game that allows everyone the ability to do great damage and decent tank (decent enough to utilize in an instance) and mixing/matching the roles a bit and not focus raids so hard on maximizing every detail in the encounter. The game could focus more on actually movement and coordination (I know they do this now, but the game doesn't entirely have to be about numbers, class/roles and a little bit of movement, I'm talking about a much greater emphasis). When I think of it, the heroes in the books seem to be more than just an ass kicker or a guy who sits there and takes beatings all day for his teammates. They were smart too, resourceful when times were challenging and some were able to take damage and dish it out in equal proportions. I think this model is outdated and it should start evolving since if it stays the same, WoW will be around for the next 10 years as the number contender since they seem to do it best. |
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2/07/10 4:06:54 PM#95
I loved this article and agree with just about the entire list. I started to tire of fantasy after playing LOTRO for some time and by the time of AOC and WAR and those games I was done with fantasy for some time though I did have a half hearted attempt at playing DDO. And the funniest thing is I just used an entire slew of acronyms but am going to complain about them anyway haha. In the discussions on the boards about games in general it obviously doesn't bother me much but I have actually had games I just gave up on because I didn't really want to learn an entire new language that isn't useful anywhere but that particluar game. It's great that you touched on the fact that this is a trend in this "text" life so many live nowadays, I'll never use twitter simply because of what it represents in practice regardless of what the makers might have hoped for (though I suspect it is pretty close to what they wanted). On the one hand I can understand the complaint about quests because I would like to see "something" different as well but at the same time it doesn't have the same negative effect on me that I know the majority of mmo players seem to feel. I tend to stick to games that have a rich lore that attracts me and that alleviates alot of that since I inherently want to experience that world I never have a problem reading the quests and what not but when it comes to games I may have never heard of they often don't create anything that I can get close enough to care about so I get that same negative feeling about questing. But again nice article. |
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2/07/10 4:22:54 PM#96
Originally posted by Jairoe03
I beg to differ. I just think much of our thinking has been trapped into this mold and find it harder and harder to perceive a reality without it as more and more games utilize it. STO is a great example (and a bit ridiculous, at least in regards to spaceships), they practically utilize the trinity on their space combat, which to me is a bit absurd. How about a game that allows everyone the ability to do great damage and decent tank (decent enough to utilize in an instance) and mixing/matching the roles a bit and not focus raids so hard on maximizing every detail in the encounter. The game could focus more on actually movement and coordination (I know they do this now, but the game doesn't entirely have to be about numbers, class/roles and a little bit of movement, I'm talking about a much greater emphasis). When I think of it, the heroes in the books seem to be more than just an ass kicker or a guy who sits there and takes beatings all day for his teammates. They were smart too, resourceful when times were challenging and some were able to take damage and dish it out in equal proportions. I think this model is outdated and it should start evolving since if it stays the same, WoW will be around for the next 10 years as the number contender since they seem to do it best.
I beg to differ. Plenty of games do what you describe. They start tweaking the classes so that they can pull double duty. LotRo is a good example of that, and the game is poorer for it. |
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2/07/10 4:33:47 PM#97
Originally posted by Scottgun
I beg to differ. Plenty of games do what you describe. They start tweaking the classes so that they can pull double duty. LotRo is a good example of that, and the game is poorer for it.
I want to believe your perception isn't solely based on the class functions within the game since a class system isn't what defines the whole game. The short sightedness is prominent just in this response and rather respond to the whole post, a piece was taken and a statement was made even though my idea was actually being presented in light of other things and I would of actually put greater emphasis on a game that doesn't revolve around the math and the roles/powers specifically. The idea was to put more focus on other aspects of a game that can be utilized such as character movement and positioning. Again, just an idea that crossed my mind in a matter of minutes, but again, the emphasis was an idea that didn't HAVE to utilize the trinity by drawing some of the emphasis away from the class system itself and putting more emphasis into other aspects of the game. Thanks for becoming part of my example, in which my point I was trying to make from the first paragraph of my original post is proven. I think many players have been used to following this mold and it's just somethign we're all familiar with and many are also resistant towards change or being able to perceive something that isn't familiar. |
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Rudeasp
 Novice Member
Joined: 7/09/09
If I can have fun for a fee that's fine but don't give my rewards away for free. |
2/07/10 7:45:53 PM#98
These things are made worse by lazy MMO developers which have abused certain aspects of games just so they don't have to impliment other tatics, and play styles made by the wider variety of fantasy games.
7. Kill ten rats. These should aways be starting quests for the noobs, or those trying to gain trust for even bigger quests. I'm going to mix this one with 5. Fed Ex Quests. The idea is questing if these are an issue just throw out questing and story line progression all together. Fed Ex Quests should be allowing the player to travel to areas they wouldn't have discovered on their own. 6. The Holy Trinity. This was never set in stone when it came to fantasy, or gaming, so I don't know why MMOs tried to make it the standard. They even attempt to break out of this model by intrudicing random target attacks. In fantasy many large battles were won with cunning, skill, luck, and a well timed advancement on the targets weakness. Tank and spank I feel for most people is boring, and puts too much importance on a very limited set of classes. 5. Fed Ex Quests. I included this in 7. 4. Fantasy. There is no limit to fantasy. The basic races are just a start. Why some MMOs only pick these classes, or add one or two types more is a failure, and lazy on their part. There is an almost limitless number of races in the fantasy genre of games. Even Everquest had 16 playable races, and classes. The paper RPGs had it right I don't know why its changed. 3. Oversized Armor, and Weapons. You're trolling right? Should they wear a suit and carry a suitcase? 2. Levels. This is something that's easily abused. Originally it was used to show how experienced you are, but it has since become a ladder to indefinitely climb, which isn't possible. Once you're able to master your class, and demand the respect of your entire race that's it for the reason to level. Its needed, but I think most people feel maybe only in the lower levels, but later its a pain to have spent so much time getting the best there is to offer then the levels get raised, and someone is wearing something they found on the floor that's better then yours which dropped from the trans dimensional ruler of planes boss.... 1. Acronyms. ROLFMAO!
"Knowing the game, Knowing your character and having character makes you a good player. -Rudeasp |
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2/07/10 11:18:04 PM#99
Rolling on the floor laughing :) Oh my God it can be done :) laugh out load.
Just kidding seriously though i agree with the list i really want a game that is not level based i grind to max level and then I'm bored out of my mind I quite that MMO and go play another MMO that is exactly the same as the previous one its very boring all in all but what is a person to do.... I would very much like to see an MMO that uses purchasing of skills with EXP as opposed to the now very common grind to hit max level that we now have. A good example of this in a game format would be the original vampire the masquerade redemption though outdated the game had the right idea for versatile character advancement more in line with the original pen and paper. Though i would like to see less of an pawn come out of it than in that game. I want someone to go study the warhammer 40k pen and paper game rogue trader or dark heresy and use that system to build characters around in an MMO only removing the proffession rank max then throw it into a world as big as eve-online with better questing for nubs and a more advanced system for controlling territory as a guild/alliance/corp/etc... than is in eve (notice i said more advanced not more complicated or time consuming eve has plenty of that as is).
I don't know its possible I am just asking to much of game designers.
Thanks for reading. Adacanavar I am the monkey |
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2/07/10 11:50:40 PM#100
Originally posted by Scottgun There are probably hundreds of group-based games out there that require cooperation that don't pigeon-hole a person into either a tank, healer, or a dps. Such games range from schoolyard stuff, to sports, to board games, to P&P RPGs, to many computers games. The idea that "every game must be HT" is laughable. Of course, you get the guys who confuse the tanking role with "ability to take damage", when it is actually a mechanics wherein one person takes the vast majority of the damage and that's pretty much his sole job (everything he does is around him taking damage and working to make sure it stays that way). They confuse the healing role with the idea of recovering health, when actually it is a role where someone's sole function is to ONLY heal in DURING combat. They confuse the DPS role with "the ability to deal damage" when in actuality it in the HT it is someone whose sole function is to supply damage (to various sources). Sure, HT games modify this SLIGHTLY by having debuffing clearing and some CC, but overall this specialization into the above 3 roles is what people who complain about the HT are talking about. It was what the people in this thread complaining about it are talking about. (I don't mean to beat on you about this, I just read the first couple pages and the last page, but I recognize some names of people who think like the above). Also, real life combat doesn't act like the HT at all, for what it is worth. There ARE specializations, just like MANY games have specializations, but they aren't composed of HT roles by any means (even if some terms like "tank" are used in both, they have very different meanings). Yes, there is healing, but they don't fully patch you up in battle...they stabilize your condition and send you to heal outside of battle (over a long time). Overall, things are VASTLY different, but it isn't like the tactics or strategy of real life combat are degenerate or simple (as some in this thread have claimed). Heh, I saw one post early on claiming that all systems are either paper-rock-scissors or degenerate into a "best strategy." For the sake of argument, let's assume that's true (it isn't). Guess what? The Holy Trinity ISN'T paper-rock-scissors (where x beasts y, y beats z, and z beats x). Just because two systems have 3 roles doesn't mean those roles are the same. Also, just because HT has 3 roles doesn't mean all games can only have 3 roles without missing something or adding something that doesn't matter or doesn't work. Anyhow... Probably the worst damage the HT systems have ever done is make people think they are the only systems that make sense or that can exist.
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