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2/01/10 10:17:32 AM#141
Originally posted by donmaximo What? You mean that I can't join this game...play for 6 months, and be just as skilled (player and character) as another character that's 5 years in?!?! Players that have been playing longer are (generally) going to have more money, friends, assets, and (character) skill than me?!?!? I can't train to be the best trader, PvPer, miner, PvE missioner, etc all at the same time?!?!? I can't drink copious amounts of Mountain Dew and stay up for 8 weeks straight to become the leetest, epic'd out, pewpew wtfpwner of all of EvE history?!?!? Man, this game sucks. You should be able to power-level (?) to max competitiveness, attain all epic’d out purples, and wtfleetroflmaogtfopewpewpwn all the noobs in 3 months max! Sigh. I wish they made a game like that...
Actually, smart@55, I said be competitive. Not wipe everyone out in anything you try to do. At least you admit it, thank you. That is all I have been after; give the new guys some realistic expectations. Some of these guys lure new players in with the expectation that they're gonna pirate in nulsec or 'run with the big boys' in short order and it isn't so. |
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qazyman
 Gurista
Joined: 10/04/06
A Good Sandbox isn't about your characters abilities; It's about the players ability. |
2/01/10 10:59:28 AM#142
Originally posted by WizardBlack
Actually, smart@55, I said be competitive. Not wipe everyone out in anything you try to do. At least you admit it, thank you. That is all I have been after; give the new guys some realistic expectations. Some of these guys lure new players in with the expectation that they're gonna pirate in nulsec or 'run with the big boys' in short order and it isn't so. It really depends on the player. Players that are aggressive and smart can rise to the top of the kill board in fairly short order. The only limitation they will face is the number of different ships they can fly. Skill points are almost meaningless TBH, it's just that most players aren’t good enough to take advantage of this fact. Kill boards are filled with dominate players in Null-sec with under a year in game. They wouldn't be able to do something like that in a game like WOW but they can in EVE. Still, it's not easy. |
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2/01/10 11:02:51 AM#143
Originally posted by WizardBlack
This is very true.
If you lack vision, intelligence, and motivation that is.
He makes a good point: if you lack motivation, creativity, and problem solving skills.... you will probably always hate eve and you will be much happier if you just stay away.
With this attitude 2 years (or even FIVE years) of training are not going to make much difference, even if you attempt to make up for your deficiencies with tons of ISK. |
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2/01/10 11:16:56 AM#144
Originally posted by Barrow So how long does it take in WOW to have a lvl 80 character with highest Tier equipment? If you play 2-3 hours a day, slightly over a month. Depends of course on the luck and if you manage to find a raid-group. |
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2/01/10 11:19:04 AM#145
You're trying really hard, aren't you? It's hilarious how you're grasping straws and go out of your way to badmouth eve. I'm totally sorry for you if your experience was a bad one, but stop trying to convince everyone that your inability applies to anyone starting new. In other news, we just took a one week old character into our corp. 300k sp. The lucky bastard has 100% reimbursement.. |
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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
2/01/10 11:29:30 AM#146
Originally posted by batolemaeus Nice, hey, how about taking in my 2.5 year old character, wouldn't mind getting these pesky T3 ships reimbursed every time I get one blown up. Oh wait, I didn't start when the first players did, I can't possibly have caught up and be flying T3 cruisers, (or those T2 fitted BS's, HACS, Mauraders, Covops, recons etc) never mind. But in a related story, I once flew with a corp whose CEO went out to 0.0 on his 3rd day playing EVE, (back when you could start out with 800K of training out of the shute) and never looked back. It can be done, just a matter of will.
"Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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2/01/10 11:30:01 AM#147
My major qualm with EVE was that, you do have to get into a nice corp, and do have to specialize to be able pit yourself against the vets. EVE is a game you really have to like to keep playing. I've had three month to one year on and off subscriptions and my final decision has always been that the game just does not offer enough to me to warrant paying a monthly fee.
No argument will convince me that the skill training system currently in place does not favor the veterans and inhibit the new players. In most themepark games you can be up and running with a maxed out character within around a month. Not EVE, you can have a character that can in the right circumstances be viable at the top level, but one that lacks the diversity and depth of the veterans.
Having said that, EVE is not as hard to get into as many people here put it. But as a completely new 'from-scratch' players, you will be at a disadvantage to the veterans. In a game-world like EVE's this is fitting, as the game is much more than a click to move space combat romp. EVE is about communities, their relationships and player driven gameplay. If that rings your bells a few months of 'gimped' playing will reward you with a viable character, still not as good as the vets. If you want a high-end character, you buy it. |
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2/01/10 11:36:44 AM#148
Originally posted by WizardBlack
Actually, smart@55, I said be competitive. Not wipe everyone out in anything you try to do. At least you admit it, thank you. That is all I have been after; give the new guys some realistic expectations. Some of these guys lure new players in with the expectation that they're gonna pirate in nulsec or 'run with the big boys' in short order and it isn't so. What does “be competitive” mean? The way you described it sounded very much like flying around and dominating everything (PvP, PvE, trade, industry, etc). Your notion of “running with the big boys” is very much a WoW-type thought process that has no place in EvE. What do you mean by “big boys”? People in big ships? I’m sure you can find plenty of asshats flying big ships that bought their EvE characters and have no idea what they’re doing. I guess you can fly around with them, if it makes you feel better to see big ships, but it’s not going to get you very far. T1 can certainly “be competitive” in low or null sec, and achieve way more than a few kills, if they play smart and use sound tactics. Are you going to fly around in your T1 frig and wipe the floor with well equipped and skilled (player and character) battleships? No. But you sure as hell can pick a target from the plethora of uninformed players that follow advice like yours, and buy characters that can fly ships and use modules they have no clue how to operate effectively. A new player could also do a little research and find a pirate corp that accepts new players, at which point they can certainly pirate null sec in a gang of experienced PvPers (and not simply be cannon fodder). Here are links to two such corps: Blood Money Cartel http://www.bloodmoneycartel.net/forum/index.php?sid=c1ac698c8198c09b4bd810c4fac7b520 The Tuskers No, all things being equal, a new player will be unlikely to achieve the skill (player and character), ISK and assets of another player who started playing years before them, in 6 months time. But EvE isn’t about max-level, or being epic’d out. It’s about building your own name doing something that you enjoy, and doing it well. Are there always going to be those that are better than you? Probably. Why is that a bad thing? If nothing else, it means you’ll always have something else to improve on. |
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2/01/10 11:37:32 AM#149
Originally posted by Hrothmund If you play 2-3 hours a day, slightly over a month. Depends of course on the luck and if you manage to find a raid-group.
This post made me physically shudder.... I've never made it past level 28 in WoW (despite multiple attempts) because the lack of penalties/ rewards makes the game very thin for me. I guess it has a lot to do with where you start in gaming- EvE was my first MMO (well, second after E&B) and now anything without the same consequences, rewards, and challenges seems like fluff. My best friend in RL loves WoW... and I've tried it for his sake multiple times. Likewise he has tried EvE multiple times.. each of us never quite enjoying the other game.
It's an important point to remember... we don't all like the same things and that is fine and good. I would like to see people stop bashing things just because they don't fit personal preference.
WoW is not a bad game because there is no death penalty.
EvE is not a bad game just because it is complex and difficult.
Plenty of room in the universe for different games/ gaming philosophies without attacking what we don't understand/ appreciate. |
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2/01/10 11:37:33 AM#150
I did not have a negative experience with Eve. I still sub on and off and I have done trading, mining, scouting, scanning, etc. All of it mostly in nulsec. I made FC in 8 months, so yeah, skills matter. But when your best efforts are stomped on by a nanoHAC, etc. skills won't matter. There are many instances where all of the player skill in the world won't make a bit of difference against a T2 pilot with half a clue. You can't assume you will always have epic capabilities and tactics to wield your T1 stuff and the other guy in the really expensive T2 gear will be a complete dolt. As I said before, I am merely trying to season a new player's expectations with a bit of reality. As an aside, it's easy to do 100% reimbursement to a new guy trashing smaller T1 gear. Particularly when your corp has any kind of decent nulsec mining ops going. |
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2/01/10 11:41:27 AM#151
Originally posted by Hrothmund I enjoyed your post, and it made many good points. This line is particularly funny though, don't you think? (image in my head of a guy spending hours online thinking "god I hate this shit" lol) |
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2/01/10 11:49:32 AM#152
Let me reword it. People do it. It's your own fault if you don't. |
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2/01/10 11:56:35 AM#153
Originally posted by ExplodingPod I enjoyed your post, and it made many good points. This line is particularly funny though, don't you think? (image in my head of a guy spending hours online thinking "god I hate this shit" lol)
Well what I meant in essence was that to the average player the learning curve is quite steep and the game world is unfamiliar, and in the worst possible cases immediately cut-throat hostile. If you continue to have fun through your first week, chances are EVE is the perfect game for you. Personally speaking, I had a blast, but there were those few points of utter frustration, like losing my first couple of ships, that just seemed to highlight how 'outmatched' you are as a new player. |
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2/01/10 12:06:16 PM#154
Originally posted by Hrothmund
Well what I meant in essence was that to the average player the learning curve is quite steep and the game world is unfamiliar, and in the worst possible cases immediately cut-throat hostile. If you continue to have fun through your first week, chances are EVE is the perfect game for you. Personally speaking, I had a blast, but there were those few points of utter frustration, like losing my first couple of ships, that just seemed to highlight how 'outmatched' you are as a new player. It's a pretty common experience to scrape resources together for weeks to buy (or build) your first cruiser only to be vaporized minutes after you enter lowsec for the fist time. I still remember the pilot that killed me in Uphallant in my first thorax in 2004. This is a defining moment in eve for all new players. Many will say "screw it this isn't fair" and quit. The people that end up loving the game will pick them selves up, dust themselves off, and say "that sucked. What have I learned that will help me avoid this in the future?"
One of the many ways that impatience and shortsightedness are self limiting in eve. |
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2/01/10 1:38:32 PM#155
Originally posted by donmaximo
Actually, smart@55, I said be competitive. Not wipe everyone out in anything you try to do. At least you admit it, thank you. That is all I have been after; give the new guys some realistic expectations. Some of these guys lure new players in with the expectation that they're gonna pirate in nulsec or 'run with the big boys' in short order and it isn't so. What does “be competitive” mean? The way you described it sounded very much like flying around and dominating everything (PvP, PvE, trade, industry, etc). Your notion of “running with the big boys” is very much a WoW-type thought process that has no place in EvE. What do you mean by “big boys”? People in big ships? I’m sure you can find plenty of asshats flying big ships that bought their EvE characters and have no idea what they’re doing. I guess you can fly around with them, if it makes you feel better to see big ships, but it’s not going to get you very far. T1 can certainly “be competitive” in low or null sec, and achieve way more than a few kills, if they play smart and use sound tactics. Are you going to fly around in your T1 frig and wipe the floor with well equipped and skilled (player and character) battleships? No. But you sure as hell can pick a target from the plethora of uninformed players that follow advice like yours, and buy characters that can fly ships and use modules they have no clue how to operate effectively. A new player could also do a little research and find a pirate corp that accepts new players, at which point they can certainly pirate null sec in a gang of experienced PvPers (and not simply be cannon fodder). Here are links to two such corps: Blood Money Cartel http://www.bloodmoneycartel.net/forum/index.php?sid=c1ac698c8198c09b4bd810c4fac7b520 The Tuskers No, all things being equal, a new player will be unlikely to achieve the skill (player and character), ISK and assets of another player who started playing years before them, in 6 months time. But EvE isn’t about max-level, or being epic’d out. It’s about building your own name doing something that you enjoy, and doing it well. Are there always going to be those that are better than you? Probably. Why is that a bad thing? If nothing else, it means you’ll always have something else to improve on. By competitive I mean your personal skills can make up for the difference in gear. I mean you have a relatively decent chance on a regular basis to come out on top. It's tough to measure it directly since few battles are 1 v 1 in nulsec (at least for very long). I never said anything about max-level or 'epic'd out' to use your vernacular. You are imposing your own WoW comparisons. I have played most MMO's since they first became a genre that technology could allow, so Wow is merely a fad or one milestone to me; not the end-all measuring stick. By 'big boys' I refer to a corp that operates in nulsec with it's own territory and under constant probes and attacks. Can you go out there as a low skill pilot? Sure, with their protection and whatnot. Are you competitive? Nope, not typically. Can you contribute? Sure. I went out my first time and based out of nulsec as a 1.9M SP pilot. I tackled, I threw mining lasers on my pew pew ship, I donned a cloaking device and played sentry or scanned out stuff. Whatever. It was fun. But I couldn't stand toe to toe with a nanoHAC, no way. I tried. I helped tackle stuff, but tackling doesn't really work on some stuff, obviously. No way in h*ll am I gonna stick all my SP into tackling, either. As I said, I personally don't play tons of Eve just because I am a jack of all trades and being pigeon holed to get to a competitive level in ONE thing quickly doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.
I feel I have made my point and defended my logic. Yours may be different, but it's ultimately opinion vs. opinion. I see no need to continue past this to the point of arguing; it just makes everyone look foolish and petty. Peace out. |
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2/01/10 3:48:38 PM#156
Originally posted by OldBiker
Your statement is false. I've been playing for about 5 to 6 months now and I don't agree. I know many who think the same. Best way for me to describe it would be: "sufficient". There isn't anything better so I play Eve. This does not make me happy. It makes me quite sad. Depressed even. We need more competition in the MMO market to push the level of quality and innovation to new limits. Take Eve for example, the competition is almost non-existent and feeble at best. Eve is definately where it is now not only because of its merits, but because the competition is very, very weak. Sorry for going off-topic. Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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2/01/10 3:51:13 PM#157
Originally posted by Quirhid
Your statement is false. I've been playing for about 5 to 6 months now and I don't agree. I know many who think the same. Best way for me to describe it would be: "sufficient". There isn't anything better so I play Eve. This does not make me happy. It makes me quite sad. Depressed even. We need more competition in the MMO market to push the level of quality and innovation to new limits. Take Eve for example, the competition is almost non-existent and feeble at best. Eve is definately where it is now not only because of its merits, but because the competition is very, very weak. Sorry for going off-topic. Why dont you give Darkfall a shot. You might like it. |
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2/01/10 4:09:34 PM#158
Originally posted by Jeezesuz
I know I should... atleast to know how it is. To be honest, in the light what what is said about it, it doesn't look all that promising. Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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Kyleran
Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
2/01/10 4:20:22 PM#159
Originally posted by Quirhid
Your statement is false. I've been playing for about 5 to 6 months now and I don't agree. I know many who think the same. Best way for me to describe it would be: "sufficient". There isn't anything better so I play Eve. This does not make me happy. It makes me quite sad. Depressed even. We need more competition in the MMO market to push the level of quality and innovation to new limits. Take Eve for example, the competition is almost non-existent and feeble at best. Eve is definately where it is now not only because of its merits, but because the competition is very, very weak. Sorry for going off-topic.
Well, I'm not sure what you're currently doing in EVE at the 6 month mark, but I've found that changing what I'm doing on a regular basis keeps the game fresh. I started out the first 3-5 months like many running missions and earning enough ISK and Skills to fly a BS and Stealth bomber. I then went out to 0.0 and ran with a Steath corp for a about 6 months learning how to lose Ravens to ceptor gangs and eventually busting POS's ad nauseum in an armor tanked Raven fleet during the BOB wars. (oh yeah, our alliance FREGE lost its home systems during the process so we switched over to IRON and continued onwards. Got tired of that, went back to empire, ran missions for a bit to regroup, then joined an Empire based corp which grew quite large and promptly became the regular targets of several merc corps who enjoyed fighting us because we were fun. (we fought back). After about 6 months of campaigns, I went back out to 0.0 with a couple of different alliances, mostly ratting ores and running home defense when necessary. Got to see the end of a hated rival (Smash/Road-Kill) only to have my own crushed once again by the Goonswarm (our former allies). Back to empire, more ratting, decided it was time to learn about wormholes, spent about 4 months living the life, now have returned to empire and am exploring low sec/0.0 in my stealth Tengu. Not sure what will be next on my plate, I'll just sort of hang out and see what turns up. Point of all this text? EVE is what you make of it, if you find you are bored, go find something else to do. (but not mining, never that, perish the thought)
"Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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2/01/10 4:33:41 PM#160
I wouldn't make a statement like I did without knowing I have done pretty much 90% of what there is to do in Eve (yes, even mining), but I see your point. I guess there is still high-level wormholes, high-level complexes, lvl5 missions and more 0.0 action to be had. I have been fortunate to land on a very active and very diverse corp which has moved on from high-sec wars, to low-sec and 0.0. The 0.0 is quite new to me but not that much different from the other activities imo. Significantly better than the rest, I agree - but not that different. Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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