In UO you could make a brand new character and in 3 days time, without macroing and without exploiting, be PVP viable.  I did that with my Blob character, 2 days on the bone knight wall and 1 day of resist training.  Then I went out and killed a 5 man guild that was killing the "blob clan" players over and over and over in Moonglow.  I was nicknamed "Hero Blob" for what I did that day.

In Shadowbane it was the same thing, although it required a little bit of macroing (by a high level character) and runes from your guild (INT runes in my case).  In 3 days time (time it took for a bane to go active) I hit level 65 and made the most killshots at the bane (siege).

In both of the above examples a totally new player would take a few weeks to get their character ready for action.  This is a stark contrast to the junk on the market now.  Developers are pushing the grind to try to keep players playing instead of trying to make the game fun.  Also, don't say "well SB is dead, no-one will follow their concept" because SB died due to technical reasons, not concept.  UO is now over 13 years old and still going and SB would still be around and possibly as popular as EVE if it had an engine that didn't crash every 10 minutes at launch (or lag you to death at the large 1000 player banes that happened in the first months of its life).

Also, why are player run servers so popular for some of the more popular games?  That's right, they are usually 10x faster leveling, even if they are mired in cheats and GM abuse.

To make along story short - some of the best PVP games were also the fastest to get to the fun part of the game - endgame.  So should companies work on making their games fun, or make them a grind?

PS: PVP = MMO - without the other players its just a single player game

 Darkfall has the best PVP in any MMORPG in existance.

Stop living in the past already, cant come to these boards without some nauseating nostalgia posts popping up.

 ...and Darkfall fan strikes again.

Honestly, I think some of the best PvP can be seen in MUDs. Especially the ones like Midkemia that slow down combat so you can think and actually have to tell the game which kind of attack you want to use, adding more strategy in there. Essentially, it's on an Active Time system similar to Final Fantasy, but it's still more effective for PvP than choosing your wep and spamming the attack key until the enemy dies, similar to Darkfall.

Originally posted by bluebawles

 Darkfall has the best PVP in any MMORPG in existance.

 

Stop living in the past already, cant come to these boards without some nauseating nostalgia posts popping up.

What? If you think that's true that must be the only MMO you have ever played. I bet next you'll be telling me that the UI in Darkfall is the best also. HA! To to OP yeah UO had the best system and the most freedom but these days people want easy rewards without any danger that's why BG's are in games these days. I could hear it now if I killed someone looted the house key and looted the house... The crying would probably be insane and bluebawles would be on of them. Enjoy Darkfall though...

Originally posted by Hives

Originally posted by bluebawles

 Darkfall has the best PVP in any MMORPG in existance.

 

Stop living in the past already, cant come to these boards without some nauseating nostalgia posts popping up.

 

What? If you think that's true that must be the only MMO you have ever played. I bet next you'll be telling me that the UI in Darkfall is the best also. HA! To to OP yeah UO had the best system and the most freedom but these days people want easy rewards without any danger that's why BG's are in games these days. I could hear it now if I killed someone looted the house key and looted the house... The crying would probably be insane and bluebawles would be on of them. Enjoy Darkfall though...

I am a veteran of Asheron's Call Darktide....you know that FFA pvp skillbased game that didnt get neutered by it's makers with Trammel and did not go free to play and shut down a couple years later - Shadowbane -

I know about what I am talking about in regards to PVP mmorpgs

Originally posted by Hives

What? If you think that's true that must be the only MMO you have ever played. I bet next you'll be telling me that the UI in Darkfall is the best also. HA! To to OP yeah UO had the best system and the most freedom but these days people want easy rewards without any danger that's why BG's are in games these days. I could hear it now if I killed someone looted the house key and looted the house... The crying would probably be insane and bluebawles would be on of them. Enjoy Darkfall though...

Heh, had to laugh at this one. Especially the part about the UI.

I also think a big part of why PvP sucks so much now is because it doesn't give an in character reason to PvP and people don't stay in character. 

A lot of why winning was so satisfying is taken away by the fact that all you're doing is crushing the ego of the guy sitting on the other end of the internet. You're no longer bringing down Grognak the Destroyer. There's no rep except what they own or what level they are anymore.

Darkfall is the best current RPG on the market.  Everything else is canned.  Notice I said RPG instead of PVP MMO.  In UO there was a player created city called Pax Lair.  This was not developer created in any way other than the gifts the "gods" gave them.  That can never happen in most MMO's on the market because they are all canned.  You have no freedom, you are stuck in whatever path is laid out in front of you, even with PVP (player interaction).

Darkfall still has a grind (although its been greatly improved) compared to the top dogs (SB and UO).  You may be able to equip full plate and R80 weapons on a character made 1 minute ago, but someone who has played 2 months will still stomp you on stats/power alone and in 3 days its the exact same stomping as day 1 and day 10.

Originally posted by bluebawles

I am a veteran of Asheron's Call Darktide....you know that FFA pvp skillbased game that didnt get neutered by it's makers with Trammel and did not go free to play and shut down a couple years later - Shadowbane -

 

I know about what I am talking about in regards to PVP mmorpgs

Even thinking about comparing AC to DFO is shaming the name of the former. 

DFO is like month old dog poo in comparison to AC.

Also, would you care to elaborate on why DFO's PvP is so great? Last I recall, I could get the same action, and possibly better, in Determinance.

pvp in eve > pvp in DF.

more thinking, less spamming.  Bigger is not always better.  Longer fights.

DF is good (i have heard, at least) but eve is the true successor to UO imho

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by bluebawles

I am a veteran of Asheron's Call Darktide....you know that FFA pvp skillbased game that didnt get neutered by it's makers with Trammel and did not go free to play and shut down a couple years later - Shadowbane -

 

I know about what I am talking about in regards to PVP mmorpgs

Even thinking about comparing AC to DFO is shaming the name of the former. 

DFO is like month old dog poo in comparison to AC.

Also, would you care to elaborate on why DFO's PvP is so great? Last I recall, I could get the same action, and possibly better, in Determinance.

Everything about the game was made to encourage player strife and at the same time makes people huddle together forming clans and alliances for protection and growth. That is a PVP mmorpg in simple terms im not going to get into the minute details since i am not planning on writing a masters thesis tonight.

And while I loved AC more than DF well in terms of PVP mmorpg they are incomparable. AC's pinnacle of PK player skill being fastcasting which was a glitch in the code they never found a fix for....tells much about AC and it's PVP development. Darkfall is simply the superior PVP game

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by bluebawles

I am a veteran of Asheron's Call Darktide....you know that FFA pvp skillbased game that didnt get neutered by it's makers with Trammel and did not go free to play and shut down a couple years later - Shadowbane -

 

I know about what I am talking about in regards to PVP mmorpgs

Even thinking about comparing AC to DFO is shaming the name of the former. 

DFO is like month old dog poo in comparison to AC.

Also, would you care to elaborate on why DFO's PvP is so great? Last I recall, I could get the same action, and possibly better, in Determinance.

DFO is more about freedom than anything else.  Your not bound to some developer created class and quest path.  You make your own path.

@bluebawles - You are saying the same thing about Shadowbane that scares away developers - it closed down.  That simple fact ignores the reason it closed down - its engine sucked bad.  The concept of Shadowbane was one of the best out there.  If someone would just remake Shadowbane as it was with more content (as the engine could not handle what it had) it would be a real money maker (300k subs money maker).

Originally posted by bluebawles

Everything about the game was made to encourage player strife and at the same time makes people huddle together forming clans and alliances for protection and growth. That is a PVP mmorpg in simple terms im not going to get into the minute details since i am not planning on writing a masters thesis tonight.

 How is that good? That kills all chances of forming a sort of society and kills all forms of roleplay not supply and combat related. PvP should have some sort of in character restraints. A game that you just run around killing everyone isn't an MMORPG. It's an MMO action game.

And while I loved AC more than DF well in terms of PVP mmorpg they are incomparable. AC's pinnacle of PK player skill being fastcasting which was a glitch in the code they never found a fix for....tells much about AC and it's PVP development. Darkfall is simply the superior PVP game

AC was so much more tactical, though. Darkfall is just spamming the attack button. Once again, I refer you to the greatest PvP ever - MUDs.

Originally posted by itchmon

pvp in eve > pvp in DF.

 

more thinking, less spamming.  Bigger is not always better.  Longer fights.

 

DF is good (i have heard, at least) but eve is the true successor to UO imho

EVE has evolved to something more than just a typical MMORPG so thus I left it out on most of my posts.  Its not UO;  you are a ship, not two legged avatar.  EVE is much better than the typical level based MMO on the market by leaps and bounds, but I put it into its own market; EVE has no competition.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 You are saying the same thing about Shadowbane that scares away developers - it closed down.  That simple fact ignores the reason it closed down - its engine sucked bad.  

Quite. 

So you have Shadowbane with an engine that sucked bad, while DF's is very good (widely accepted).

That makes DF the better game simply put....concepts and potential can only get you so far....till it gets shut down.

Originally posted by -Zeno- 

DFO is more about freedom than anything else.  Your not bound to some developer created class and quest path.  You make your own path.

So are Sociolotron, Runescape, Mortal Online, and EvE. It's debatable which are better, but I find PvP much more fun in EvE than in DFO. I also find the criminal system in MO much more inherent to making it a world fit for being an MMORPG and not some massive battleground.

Originally posted by bluebawles

So you have Shadowbane with an engine that sucked bad, while DF's is very good (widely accepted).

Let me finish that sentence...

Widely accepted...among it's fans. To everyone else, everything about the game is an abomination. Have you heard the shit talk about the UI? That's part of the engine bud.

Don't get me started on the horrible optimization.

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by bluebawles

Everything about the game was made to encourage player strife and at the same time makes people huddle together forming clans and alliances for protection and growth. That is a PVP mmorpg in simple terms im not going to get into the minute details since i am not planning on writing a masters thesis tonight.

 How is that good? That kills all chances of forming a sort of society and kills all forms of roleplay not supply and combat related. PvP should have some sort of in character restraints. A game that you just run around killing everyone isn't an MMORPG. It's an MMO action game.

And while I loved AC more than DF well in terms of PVP mmorpg they are incomparable. AC's pinnacle of PK player skill being fastcasting which was a glitch in the code they never found a fix for....tells much about AC and it's PVP development. Darkfall is simply the superior PVP game

AC was so much more tactical, though. Darkfall is just spamming the attack button. Once again, I refer you to the greatest PvP ever - MUDs.

 

AC was much more tactical? lol AC is much less tactical even if we did not involve sieges, cannons ships that DF has

AC had this 

1 -q  - w -a -d - a d adada (strafe) till  war fastcast (add stam to hp in case of low health - or sub with heal self 7)

I should know being in Blood till 2005 with multiple 126s. DF and AC pvp do not compare in terms of tactics, at all.

Originally posted by bluebawles

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 You are saying the same thing about Shadowbane that scares away developers - it closed down.  That simple fact ignores the reason it closed down - its engine sucked bad.  

 

 

Quite. 

 

So you have Shadowbane with an engine that sucked bad, while DF's is very good (widely accepted).

 

That makes DF the better game simply put....concepts and potential can only get you so far....till it gets shut down.

So all it needs is to be remastered.  SB + Crysis engine = WoW killer (ok, ok, going to far with that one, would be along the lines of EVE's success, 300k subs, not DF's 30k or 40k subs).

Not everyone is into FPS.  Yes, I like DF and play DF, but I suck at FPS in general.  If SB2 came out with a rock solid engine I would leave DF behind in a heartbeat and so would thousands of other DF players too (which would bankrupt AV, sadly).  Maybe the 300,000 people who purchased SB at its release would buy the game too.  Also, AoC, another game that had lots of risk (and popular PVP servers); they had 800k boxes sold in the first month.  That's a lot of money out there waiting to be made by whoever re-starts Shadowbane.  They have what now, 100k subs?  So that's 700k players that are just waiting on the next big thing on top of the mass exodus of players from WoW after the next expansion (and mass subs at the same time, to hide the exodus).

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by bluebawles

So you have Shadowbane with an engine that sucked bad, while DF's is very good (widely accepted).

Let me finish that sentence...

Widely accepted...among it's fans. To everyone else, everything about the game is an abomination. Have you heard the shit talk about the UI? That's part of the engine bud.

Don't get me started on the horrible optimization.

abomination? who are you trying to convince here, especially since its quite obvious you have absolutely no pvp knowledge 

the op himself stated a few posts above that DF is currently the best pvp mmorpg. 

Originally posted by bluebawles

abomination? who are you trying to convince here, especially since its quite obvious you have absolutely no pvp knowledge 

 

the op himself stated a few posts above that DF is currently the best pvp mmorpg. 

Seriously, anyone who thinks Darkfall is the best PvP MMO needs to go back to playing FPSs.

Really, explain how it's anything other than spamming the attack key. That's all I've ever seen of it and I gave the game a fair chance, myself.

Also, look at how much people outside the game's fanbase actually care about it...

As for myself, I'm not the world's most apt PvPer (I started in Clan Lord...far from a PvP MMO), but I know that Darkfall is in no way any more tactical than an FPS and in terms of those tactics, it's not half the tactical prowess required by games such as WWII Online, Planetside or even Call of Duty.

Once again, explain how DF is the best PvP MMO out currently. You have failed on every level to do anything but say that it is and cite sieges and boats (and everyone knows from AoC that having sieges means nothing). Stop trashing other games and back up Darkfall if it's so great.