Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Tim_Braid

I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time.

I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all??

Timmy

 

Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content.  Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP  realms, if you want more conflict.  WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.

One other thing.....
 

You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds.  Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?

I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?

 

Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns.  Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people.  Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game.  Blizzard obviously doesn't want that.  What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives.  For playing smart.

But the've done that.  They have increased the amount of honor gained while in a certian radius of flags, bunkers by 50%.
 

Problem hasn't gotten any better.  Why?  Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.

Blizzard tried to give benifit for working the objectives in thier new 40 vs 40 Battleground by giving buffs for holding each objective and people still ignore them.  Why?  Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.

You need the carrot AND the stick.  And if the end result of it all is that 80% of the PvP community refuses to participate in a team PvP scenario because they can't be bothered to play the scenarios as intended for their reward......well then what does that say about the player base? 

Pretty much what it says about such a cross section of the population in general... I wasn't aware of the additions, as I've not bothered with WoW PvP for quite a long while. It was just too annoying for the time/effort involved.  At this point I doubt it can be fixed. They are dealing with a dumbed down population with an entitlement fixation... It would take one hell of a lot to turn that around, and still remain profitable.

EA disagrees with OP, they have already created a new Ultima Online game which is in beta, and its nothing like his vision:

www.lordofultima.com

Originally posted by Matata

Originally posted by superslaya

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by superslaya

Originally posted by Armisael191

Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else.

Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?

 

 

See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.

 

Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.

 

You say that like its a bad thing....

 

 

Originally posted by AjninrepuS

   This FFA and full loot were "good" things about Ultima Online, so were the house systems and mounted combat which most games STILL don't have...  From dying armor to making weapons to one of the if not the best player economy of all MMO's..

 

 

 What made the game GREAT was that anyone and I mean anyone at most times can get away or kill the person or people they are engaged with..

 Example..

 

I was on the shard Chesapeake with the guild Iron Chefs at the time which everyone on shard hated us, whenever we would gate to locations known to have guild/group fight all guilds in the location will stop fighting each other and come at us.. We would still win.. Not trying to be bragging or anything but that is just how the game worked, when you are a smart player you can over come all odds.. I've lived through and or killed more 2+ odds then not and it wasn't due to luck or gear it was skill... Skill is the only thing that mattered which lacks from most other games...

 

 People complained about being ganked and pked but the truth of that is they needed to "L2P" by which I mean they should already be ready to be casting recall or have the hide skill hotkeyed...

 

 People will always choose to have a game mechanic that is easy with outcomes mostly due to gear or level... The reason UO changes in my opionion is because of those very same hardcore WoW players whom I believe to be the ones who complained and "QQ" to GMs causing the death of UO..

I completely agree. In Uo, you could just as easily escape from 10 guys by using invisibility, hiding, recall, or just outmaneuvering them.  You can't do that in most other games.  Also, its true, the definition of hardcore has changed since the old days.  Hardcore now means you pretty much suck and just grind equipment or experience all day, and some people might spend all day in the game, and it has a connotation of having no life in real life.  In the old days, hardcore meant just that,  you were highly skilled in the game, and you were really "into" it, having fun and everything.  The word had nothing to do with how long you played the game.  I am still surprised when I hear people say that the only way mmos can be fair is if the people that play longer have a greater advantage.  That actually sounds like the opposite of fair to me.

Originally posted by Disastorm

I am still surprised when I hear people say that the only way mmos can be fair is if the people that play longer have a greater advantage.  That actually sounds like the opposite of fair to me.

People say RPGs aren't RPGs without advancement, but I've never heard anyone say they're not fair without advancement.

Also, I think you've developed an awfully warped perception of what hardcore means.  "Hardcore" has never been well defined (nor will it ever be) but it's always referred to those who invested more (more time, more energy, more skill) into gaming than others.  It would be wrong to assume that it's ever meant anything beyond that, or that it was ever more specific a definition than that.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Disastorm

I am still surprised when I hear people say that the only way mmos can be fair is if the people that play longer have a greater advantage.  That actually sounds like the opposite of fair to me.

 

People say RPGs aren't RPGs without advancement, but I've never heard anyone say they're not fair without advancement.

Also, I think you've developed an awfully warped perception of what hardcore means.  "Hardcore" has never been well defined (nor will it ever be) but it's always referred to those who invested more (more time, more energy, more skill) into gaming than others.  It would be wrong to assume that it's ever meant anything beyond that, or that it was ever more specific a definition than that.

I actually have heard a few people say that on (either these or onrpg) forums before thats why I mentioned it.  Anyway, I've been playing games for over 17 years and I really don't think hardcore used to mean that.  I was always under the impression hardcore meant someone who is highly skilled at a game.  They are well acquainted with the game mechanics, and strategies, and are typically better than the average player.  Does this really sound like a warped idea of hardcore?  You are right though, there never was an official definition.

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

A lot of "hardcore" raiders get these places on farm status within a few weeks, whereas if they were actually playing the game and working the fight out themselves, like the people on test realms do (and then post vids/walkthroughs of), then it would take a few months instead.

It'd be like learning how to do a rubix cube by yourself, with no help. But instead, you have forty, or now twenty five (or even ten..) people looking at the rubix cube, all noticing little things, telling you to try something else, move your main finger topwise. Topwise.

See, people are stupid. We can't help that, all we can possibly do is keep stupid people from playing the game, or educate them slowly with a good beginning tutorial, and add layers of complexity over time, rather than all at once. WoW does this fairly well, but, as shown by the adventures of Jeanne (sp?) - it does have some flaws, and could use a better, perhaps more cinematic tutorial - maybe even something seperate from the game itself. It could be a metagame or sorts, perhaps...

...hmm, anyway, yes. WoW raids are hard, but what people are doing is looking at guides in order to win the raids almost instantaneously, rather than actually figure it out themselves, because they're lazy and goal oriented.

Also, in response to Alterac Valley, yeah, what the hell is up with that? You'd think that at level 51+ the player base would be a little more intelligent, but whatever. Idiots.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by superslaya

Originally posted by Armisael191

Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else.

Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?

 

 

See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.

 

Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.

Wrong....

Even the top tier items were replaceable.  When a person suited up in armor / weapons / potions, they had to make a consious decision on how much am I willing to risk for the resulting reward?

I can put on all my top gear and weapon and increase my chances of succeeding in a fight by a certian %, or I can risk little and have less of an "edge" against anyone I ran into.

If you were confident enough in your skills.....you carried around your Sunday's best.  If you had some back up with you, it might be okay to dust off that Vanquishing Axe.  If your running solo, then maybe you put on the regular stuff.

Your problem is that you are stuck on item progression in a MMORPG.  The sun and the moon do not have to rise and fall because of that next piece of armor or weapon.  In Ultima Online, items served as a means to some end. (The end being the experience you were afforded by having the items).  In games like WOW, you do the raiding, and PvPing to get the Items.

Originally posted by Blazz

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

 

    I am sorry if this post seems like highjacking the thread, been following it for quite some while...which has been pretty entertaining to be brutally honest .

  Anyway... I really can't see how WoW raid strategies can be described as complex. I the vast majority, if not all , of the cases is a variation of the  "Stand/Avoid area X and/or take action Y" variety. In the most complex case it might be a combination of ac ouple of such simple steps.

  WHat might be giving the illusion of complexity is:

a)the laziness of some gamers

b)the fact that they are too embarrassed to ask what to do, in case the appear ignorant

c)gamer in question is plain dumb

d) a combination of the above.

Now to return to what the OP said, I am also part of the, what seems to be, a minority that would prefer a sandbox, free-form, non-linear, with player driven content MMO over the themepark variety. And by that I do not mean a game focused entirely on PvP ala Darkfall.

Originally posted by Matata

Originally posted by Blazz

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

 

 

    I am sorry if this post seems like highjacking the thread, been following it for quite some while...which has been pretty entertaining to be brutally honest .

  Anyway... I really can't see how WoW raid strategies can be described as complex. I the vast majority, if not all , of the cases is a variation of the  "Stand/Avoid area X and/or take action Y" variety. In the most complex case it might be a combination of ac ouple of such simple steps.

  WHat might be giving the illusion of complexity is:

a)the laziness of some gamers

b)the fact that they are too embarrassed to ask what to do, in case the appear ignorant

c)gamer in question is plain dumb

d) a combination of the above.

 

Now to return to what the OP said, I am also part of the, what seems to be, a minority that would prefer a sandbox, free-form, non-linear, with player driven content MMO over the themepark variety. And by that I do not mean a game focused entirely on PvP ala Darkfall.

You forgot letter e....
 

e) The acumulated quality of gear the raid has isn't good enough for the encounter

By that, I mean that the Tank doesn't have enough Dodge/Block/Parry or Stamina (for more HP).  The Healer doesn't have enough Healing Power, Mana Regenration or Intelligence (for more MP). 

Regardless.....upping the HP and MP on encounters (bosses and trash encounters) and calling it "more difficult" is pretty lazy.

With all that said, lets give credit where credit is due.  I haven't played many other PvE focused games, but WOW is the first game I've seen where dungeon bosses varried up their attacks other than just beating on the person who has the highest threat.  While scripted, the fights are still interesting the first 20 times you do them.

Figuring out who needs to be where and what level of damage is needed does take a bit of figuring out, but after the strat has been posted somwhere.....it does become as simple as "Stand Here" "DPS Here" "Tank Here" thing.

  I never claimed that wow encounters were not interesting or fun. SUre they were at times, and I suppose most of us have some fond memories of some of them. But they never were what you might call 'mentally challenging' 

And while on that subject,  I am not a WoW hater or anything. I like and enjoyed the game for what it was and do not bitch about what it wasn't. It never proclaimed to be a sandbox. It is just that some of us, when given the option, would prefer a different kind of game and approach to our gaming experience and sometimes lament on what it would be like if the MMO industry had taken and developed the sandbox approach a bit further than UO (and possibly pre-NGE SWG).

PS: I know there is EVE around, and I like SF as much as fantasy, but can't get hooked to a game were my avatar is a spacecraft.... Now if CCP takes the 'EVE' route in making the rumoured World of Darkness MMO 

Wow, what a thread ^^

To the original poster: UO is - at least - my future. Tried a lot of other MMOs in the last few years, looked at them for a few weeks, LOLed big time, and everytime immediately returned to UO. I don't see a single game on the horizon that could change that.

UO is - at least - for me unrivalled when it comes to depth and sheer fun. It wipes the floor with every other MMO out there. Honestly, you shouldn't even compare them, it's not like comparing a rolls royce with a Audi, it's like comparing bycicles with cars.

Coming back - after a break for a weeks - to the WBB is everytime like coming home. At night I sometimes listen to all the folks riding along the WBB. It makes me feel happy. I can not understand why people choose to play games like WoW, where it all comes to one thing: Be better than other players: get better gear, see more of the content, get more achievements, LOL. Honestly Dudes, what you are playing is Real Life, so stop the bullshit and make room for your imagination.

To quote Spock: UO was and will ever be your friend :)

Originally posted by Matata

Originally posted by Blazz

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

 

 

    I am sorry if this post seems like highjacking the thread, been following it for quite some while...which has been pretty entertaining to be brutally honest .

  Anyway... I really can't see how WoW raid strategies can be described as complex. I the vast majority, if not all , of the cases is a variation of the  "Stand/Avoid area X and/or take action Y" variety. In the most complex case it might be a combination of ac ouple of such simple steps.

  WHat might be giving the illusion of complexity is:

a)the laziness of some gamers

b)the fact that they are too embarrassed to ask what to do, in case the appear ignorant

c)gamer in question is plain dumb

d) a combination of the above.

 

Now to return to what the OP said, I am also part of the, what seems to be, a minority that would prefer a sandbox, free-form, non-linear, with player driven content MMO over the themepark variety. And by that I do not mean a game focused entirely on PvP ala Darkfall.

So every encounter in every single player RPG since the begining isn't complex either then?  They all involve hitting the right buttons at the right times, learning the AI behavior and having the right stats to do it.   The complexity is in figuring it all out. If thats not complex, than NOTHING is=) 

Football is just moving a ball 10 yards at a time for 100 yards.  Pretty simple right?  Soccer is just hitting a ball into a goal? Tennis is just hitting a ball back and forth over a net until the other guy misses?  Talk about nerdifying a game...sheesh=)  No wonder I don't dig sandbox MMOs.  Everyone on this board who likes them seems to view games on an entirely different thought process, hehe.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Matata

Originally posted by Blazz

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

 

 

    I am sorry if this post seems like highjacking the thread, been following it for quite some while...which has been pretty entertaining to be brutally honest .

  Anyway... I really can't see how WoW raid strategies can be described as complex. I the vast majority, if not all , of the cases is a variation of the  "Stand/Avoid area X and/or take action Y" variety. In the most complex case it might be a combination of ac ouple of such simple steps.

  WHat might be giving the illusion of complexity is:

a)the laziness of some gamers

b)the fact that they are too embarrassed to ask what to do, in case the appear ignorant

c)gamer in question is plain dumb

d) a combination of the above.

 

Now to return to what the OP said, I am also part of the, what seems to be, a minority that would prefer a sandbox, free-form, non-linear, with player driven content MMO over the themepark variety. And by that I do not mean a game focused entirely on PvP ala Darkfall.

So every encounter in every single player RPG since the begining isn't complex either then?  They all involve hitting the right buttons at the right times, learning the AI behavior and having the right stats to do it.   The complexity is in figuring it all out. If thats not complex, than NOTHING is=) 

Football is just moving a ball 10 yards at a time for 100 yards.  Pretty simple right?  Soccer is just hitting a ball into a goal? Tennis is just hitting a ball back and forth over a net until the other guy misses?  Talk about nerdifying a game...sheesh=)  No wonder I don't dig sandbox MMOs.  Everyone on this board who likes them seems to view games on an entirely different thought process, hehe.

Somewhat like those who view UO as only a full loot gankfest?

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Matata

Originally posted by Blazz

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

 

 

    I am sorry if this post seems like highjacking the thread, been following it for quite some while...which has been pretty entertaining to be brutally honest .

  Anyway... I really can't see how WoW raid strategies can be described as complex. I the vast majority, if not all , of the cases is a variation of the  "Stand/Avoid area X and/or take action Y" variety. In the most complex case it might be a combination of ac ouple of such simple steps.

  WHat might be giving the illusion of complexity is:

a)the laziness of some gamers

b)the fact that they are too embarrassed to ask what to do, in case the appear ignorant

c)gamer in question is plain dumb

d) a combination of the above.

 

Now to return to what the OP said, I am also part of the, what seems to be, a minority that would prefer a sandbox, free-form, non-linear, with player driven content MMO over the themepark variety. And by that I do not mean a game focused entirely on PvP ala Darkfall.

So every encounter in every single player RPG since the begining isn't complex either then?  They all involve hitting the right buttons at the right times, learning the AI behavior and having the right stats to do it.   The complexity is in figuring it all out. If thats not complex, than NOTHING is=) 

Football is just moving a ball 10 yards at a time for 100 yards.  Pretty simple right?  Soccer is just hitting a ball into a goal? Tennis is just hitting a ball back and forth over a net until the other guy misses?  Talk about nerdifying a game...sheesh=)  No wonder I don't dig sandbox MMOs.  Everyone on this board who likes them seems to view games on an entirely different thought process, hehe.

There is no reason you couldn't have the Lich King boss fight encounter in a SandBox MMO.

What's with the whining about ganking? If you learned how to play the game you knew how to not get ganked. I didn't pvp much and I knew how to get out of situation. Why cry? It's like whining because you keep dying in Team Fortress 2 and you expect no one to ever attack you. If it's a feature of the game why not learn how to play the game?

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Matata

Originally posted by Blazz

Axehilt: I agree that WoW raids aren't typically easy, due to the advanced and often quite complex strategies involved.

 

 

    I am sorry if this post seems like highjacking the thread, been following it for quite some while...which has been pretty entertaining to be brutally honest .

  Anyway... I really can't see how WoW raid strategies can be described as complex. I the vast majority, if not all , of the cases is a variation of the  "Stand/Avoid area X and/or take action Y" variety. In the most complex case it might be a combination of ac ouple of such simple steps.

  WHat might be giving the illusion of complexity is:

a)the laziness of some gamers

b)the fact that they are too embarrassed to ask what to do, in case the appear ignorant

c)gamer in question is plain dumb

d) a combination of the above.

 

Now to return to what the OP said, I am also part of the, what seems to be, a minority that would prefer a sandbox, free-form, non-linear, with player driven content MMO over the themepark variety. And by that I do not mean a game focused entirely on PvP ala Darkfall.

So every encounter in every single player RPG since the begining isn't complex either then?  They all involve hitting the right buttons at the right times, learning the AI behavior and having the right stats to do it.   The complexity is in figuring it all out. If thats not complex, than NOTHING is=) 

Football is just moving a ball 10 yards at a time for 100 yards.  Pretty simple right?  Soccer is just hitting a ball into a goal? Tennis is just hitting a ball back and forth over a net until the other guy misses?  Talk about nerdifying a game...sheesh=)  No wonder I don't dig sandbox MMOs.  Everyone on this board who likes them seems to view games on an entirely different thought process, hehe.

 

There is no reason you couldn't have the Lich King boss fight encounter in a SandBox MMO.

As long as that sandbox had instances and balanced skills, so you couldn't just bring 1000 people to the fight and roll the boss or easily exploit him. Remember, those kind of bosses are designed under specific parameters for them to work like they do.  A sandbox doesn't exactly constrain you all that much.

I agree that ganking is not a huge issue in a game, you learn to avoid it or counter it (join a guild, hunt with friends... or play the premier gank class/skill set).  On top of that, if you don't like a game with pvp as its focus, you don't play.

Skaroth

There is room for both in the genre. Problem is execution of a proper game like you describe would take a long time or a lot of resources. MO is trying and a year from now we just may see it as the proper UO successor. The other issue is time. Regardless of anything else people do not have the time like they used to. Thats why the same generic themepark game is the game of choice these days. EQ in its own right was a sandbox compared to todays supposed EQ clones. EQ was a time eater though also.

To the whole, WoW raids aren't challenging argument:

If you "cheat" and your whole raid looks at the strategy guide and watches the videos then there is no intelectual challenge.  If, on the other hand, you go into the encounter blind, it is very challenging because your whole raid will have to be very observant as to what killed them.. a lot of things can be going on in a boss encounter.  Then you have the challenge of organizing your team in such a way that they learn form the information you are gaining (as you are getting your ass kicked) so that you are able to move past that section of the fight... In WoW, many bosses are multi-stage fights.  It would take you a long time, even with good players to defeat each boss, this is especially true for casual guilds who do not have the opportunity to stay on a boss all week until he is learned and downed.

Challenge is, facing a difficult problem that requires thought and effort to be solved.  The above is a challenge.  Is it also challenging to go farm materials when there are pkers out to get you, yes.  Because you enjoy one form of challenge over the other doesn't mean that one is more challenging than the other.

WoW's challenge is taken away by information web sites.  If you really want challenge in WoW raiding, join a guild that will not look at the videos and walkthroughs... sure your "progression" will be slowed but your challenge, and feeling of accomplishment, will be much greater.

WoW is a race now.. which is sad, because it really is a good game. (am done with it though)

Skaroth