Add in the fact that not many actually max out skills and you have to question the whole thing, you dont need max skills to fly a hurricane, its often pretty rare for pilots to learn skills beyond level 4, unless they need it for a particular T2 varient etc, but really thats something you do later in the game, intially players tend to learn skills to level 3, which usually takes just a few hours - T2 gear is nice, but the demand for so much named T1 gear must indicate that a lot of players are still using the T1 varients.  it only takes a couple of days to learn the skills needed to fly a T1 cruiser with reasonably good equipment etc,  the biggest hurdle is really learning to fight in the game, how to use the equipment your trained in, rather than the training itself. The excuse of, i lost a fight because i didnt have level 5 skills is a total fail.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Barrow

Originally posted by Quirhid

Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...

If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.

Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.

 

So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.

I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.

 

I see that you missed the point of my first post.

But do read the following blog "Emotional Attachment of a Game's Rules". I'm not saying that Eve is broken like the card game mentioned in the blog but many players in many games don't like changes even when the changes are good. They are simply too used to the old ways of doing things and everything new is met with hostility.

What I believe is that as you said "we like it this way" is only what you're accustomed to. It might not be the best thing around and you don't know what you might like better.

All I am doing is pointing out that the original sentece keeps true: You can't catch up. What is quite amusing about this is that the original post is found here, in forums discussing Eve, likely to be read by Eve players. You'll know what the outcome will be: majority will agree with you. Post this to another forum and you'll get a different welcome.

How did I happen to read this? Well, I am an Eve player, but I don't look at Eve and see the Holy Grail. I see a game with the good and, more importantly, the bad.

And despite the source of that blog, I'm not a Jumpgate fanboi either, so throw away you prejudice.

I agree, you can't catch up in EVE, just as you can't catch up in any MMO.

Because if a veteran WoW player keeps making more alts, gold and equipment, how can you cantch up? He will always have more characters than you.

So the veteran EVE players will always have more characters ( maxed ships ) than you.

But if you compare your maxed ship with his maxed ship, then there is 0 difference.

I do agree that WoW has become alot easier these days to max a char and max gear, this is not the case in EVE and I am glad for that.

Just stop. How long does it take to get into a Dreadnought, and fly it perfectly (and it does take one to experience the "end-game")? In WoW, you CAN reach max level and hit the gear cap in less than a year, if not half. Gold is a non-issue, and I don't see how alts come into the equation. Don't tell me a maxed Dreadnought is comparable to a maxed Frigate as a "character".

What it comes down to is that in other games you can close the gap between yourself and a veteran player, because your progression is directly proportional to your actual playtime and effort. In EVE, the best you can hope for is that other players unsubscribe periodically.
 

Originally posted by crapricot

Just stop. How long does it take to get into a Dreadnought, and fly it perfectly...

How many players need to or even want to fly a dreadnought?

How many players will even see a dreadnought in their first year or so of playing EVE?

Have you ever seen a dreadnought in combat in EVE?  If so, then weren't there also a heck of a lot of much smaller ships on that battlefield? Now, here's the REALLY BIG QUESTION for you... Were those small ships on the battlefield there because the alliance couldn't field anything bigger or because they were strategically and logistically an intrinsic part of the battle plan?

It sounds like you probably don't play EVE Online. You are still working on the premise that EVE (or any skill-based MMO, for that matter) works like a level-based game where each tier of ship is only good for a certain range of levels and that at max level you need to be in the biggest and most expensive gear. That simply is not true.

Originally posted by crapricot

Just stop. How long does it take to get into a Dreadnought, and fly it perfectly (and it does take one to experience the "end-game")? In WoW, you CAN reach max level and hit the gear cap in less than a year, if not half. Gold is a non-issue, and I don't see how alts come into the equation. Don't tell me a maxed Dreadnought is comparable to a maxed Frigate as a "character".

What it comes down to is that in other games you can close the gap between yourself and a veteran player, because your progression is directly proportional to your actual playtime and effort. In EVE, the best you can hope for is that other players unsubscribe periodically.
 

Here we have a classic example of someone who thinks that bigger ships = better = win

Flying a Dreadnaught is no measure of success. After nearly 4 years, I can't fly one, and have no intention of training for them any time soon. Dreads are useful for shooting POS and that's about it. Your average dread pilot will spend less than 1% actually using his dread, because they're highly specialised ships. Being in a Dread is nothing like being "max level". The occasional noob who RMTs himself a capital pilot and tries to act like it is invariably dies in a fire.

A lone dread is horrifically vulnerable, and should get safe as soon as possible.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by crapricot

How exactly is 18 months a reasonable amount of time to acquire maximum skillpoints for just ONE specific ship type?  This just proves that there really is no "catching up" to speak of,  veterans will ALWAYS be ahead.  No other game places such an artificial barrier on character progression. 
 

Eighteen months is a bit of an exaggeration, you don't need max skills to be competitive, level 4 vs 5 is a negligible difference and you could be flying one mean Tech 2 Heavy Assault Cruiser in about 8 months. Once you get the core skills trained each successive ship becomes much faster to train for.

Right now I have a 2.5 yr old character who can fly pretty much all smalls ships up to Marauders for two races and is now working on the skills that will let him fly pretty much all 4 races small ships.  This includes a major diversion into research skills that enable me to make some decent cash on the side selling datacores and running missions more efficiently as well.

But EVE is definitely a game of patience, and the longer you play, the better it becomes due to the fact you have ever increasing options at your disposal.  It is the secret of the games longevity and why players who decide to stay play for so many years.

Is this a bad thing, I guess so if you are looking for a more accelerated pace and are expecting to create a max level player in 4 months as is the case in other games.

 

I dont think the time is the main issue, the main issue is that you cannot directly affect your skill leveling, at all. You can enchance your attributes, to a level, which will make your automated skill leveling to go faster but there are nothing else you can do to earn SP.

That for me is a major flaw since there will be less achievements to be done in a game if you cannot activively level/skill up. In Eve destroying a ship doesnt give you anything, beside ISK. Your skills wont go up when using them, like in strict skill level system, and you cannot gain skill points (=experience points).

This means that you dont need to actually play the game. You log in every night, set your automatic skill queue and then log of. No other interaction is needed when it comes to evolving your character skills. This is completely different from every other MMORPG out there, skill or level based.

Fun? No, I dont feel so. I want to earn my character skills, that is a central part of an RPG.

  If you don't play the game with what kind of ISK are you replacing your ships and modules with? As it seems I can't believe that you and other would be content with runnaing T1 (and no named).

---

Originally posted by Malcanis
Your average dread pilot will spend less than 1% actually using his dread, because they're highly specialised ships.

---

Sounds about right. I have spent more time flying t1 frigates during the last 12 months than i spent in a capital.

And i haven't flown frigates a lot..

---

Originally posted by crapricot
Just stop. How long does it take to get into a Dreadnought, and fly it perfectly (and it does take one to experience the "end-game")?

---

Originally posted by crapricot

Just stop. How long does it take to get into a Dreadnought, and fly it perfectly (and it does take one to experience the "end-game")? In WoW, you CAN reach max level and hit the gear cap in less than a year, if not half. Gold is a non-issue, and I don't see how alts come into the equation. Don't tell me a maxed Dreadnought is comparable to a maxed Frigate as a "character".

What it comes down to is that in other games you can close the gap between yourself and a veteran player, because your progression is directly proportional to your actual playtime and effort. In EVE, the best you can hope for is that other players unsubscribe periodically.
 

Dreads pretty much suck, they are for shooting player owned sructures in 0.0 only, they can't go to low or higsec and they can't dock, meaning you ALWAYS have to be in the ship or someone steals it.

But hey, if you like WoW so much, and need instant gratification, that's fine.

The point is that you can have fun from day one in EVE, and that learning how the game works is equally important as having skillpoints and having ISK.

So there are 3 pillars of power in EVE : knowledge ( which everyone can learn at their own pace, hardcores can "grind" knowledge while others can take it easy :p ) and IS the most important part, ISK ( which you can gain by being smart and having knowledge ), and Skills ( which support the previous 2 ).

I think you can nearly max out trade skills in 3 months or so, allowing you to get very rich fast if you put the time and effort in it.

It is also about enjoying the ride, not the endgoal.

The point that the OP tries to make is that you CAN make a difference from day one, having an impact in one large sandbox.

But seriously, if you are not up to it, then fine, EVE grew from december +/- 305k to januari +/- 328k, that is more than 20k increase in active playing subscriptions. There are few mmo's that can say this.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by crapricot

How exactly is 18 months a reasonable amount of time to acquire maximum skillpoints for just ONE specific ship type?  This just proves that there really is no "catching up" to speak of,  veterans will ALWAYS be ahead.  No other game places such an artificial barrier on character progression. 
 

Eighteen months is a bit of an exaggeration, you don't need max skills to be competitive, level 4 vs 5 is a negligible difference and you could be flying one mean Tech 2 Heavy Assault Cruiser in about 8 months. Once you get the core skills trained each successive ship becomes much faster to train for.

Right now I have a 2.5 yr old character who can fly pretty much all smalls ships up to Marauders for two races and is now working on the skills that will let him fly pretty much all 4 races small ships.  This includes a major diversion into research skills that enable me to make some decent cash on the side selling datacores and running missions more efficiently as well.

But EVE is definitely a game of patience, and the longer you play, the better it becomes due to the fact you have ever increasing options at your disposal.  It is the secret of the games longevity and why players who decide to stay play for so many years.

Is this a bad thing, I guess so if you are looking for a more accelerated pace and are expecting to create a max level player in 4 months as is the case in other games.

 

I dont think the time is the main issue, the main issue is that you cannot directly affect your skill leveling, at all. You can enchance your attributes, to a level, which will make your automated skill leveling to go faster but there are nothing else you can do to earn SP.

That for me is a major flaw since there will be less achievements to be done in a game if you cannot activively level/skill up. In Eve destroying a ship doesnt give you anything, beside ISK. Your skills wont go up when using them, like in strict skill level system, and you cannot gain skill points (=experience points).

This means that you dont need to actually play the game. You log in every night, set your automatic skill queue and then log of. No other interaction is needed when it comes to evolving your character skills. This is completely different from every other MMORPG out there, skill or level based.

Fun? No, I dont feel so. I want to earn my character skills, that is a central part of an RPG.

I'm not going to disagree, if you feel that the best thing about playing an MMORPG is to advance your characters skills (levels, abilities, whatever) and your main purpose is to do so as efficiently as possible and are willing to trade sweat equity (time) to accomplish this goal, then EVE's real time skill training is maddening and the game just isn't going to be for you.

However, if you'd rather focus on other objectives and actually just play the game, say earn lots of ISK to buy shiny new toys, or explore space looking for rare drops, or battle Sleeper aliens (NPC's) in wormholes, or even say, PVP against other players in either Empire, Low Sec or 0.0 (all very different varieties of PVP btw) then having the skill training in real time is a great feature and one you really come to appreciate, especially if your gaming time every day is limited like mine is.

I don't measure my progress so much in terms of how many ships I can fly (though to be sure I like it when  I can fly a new one) nor do I feel any more powerful being able to fly a Gallente BS along with the Amarr one I first trained, I do have more options and in EVE every ship is a tool, and some tools are better than others for different activities.

My progression in EVE consists of course on the ships I can fly, the datacores I can mine, the space stations in 0.0 that I've helped build (3) the alliance wars that I've won (1) and lost (3) the empire wars against mercs that resulted in victory (well, none really, those guys were pretty tough, at least they rarely killed me) the ISK that I have in my bankroll (more than I can spend) and the fun I had learning about life in wormholes and battling sleepers.

Its just a totally different approach to traditional MMORPG gaming and I can see how it might not appeal to everyone.

Originally posted by crapricot

Just stop. How long does it take to get into a Dreadnought, and fly it perfectly (and it does take one to experience the "end-game")? In WoW, you CAN reach max level and hit the gear cap in less than a year, if not half. Gold is a non-issue, and I don't see how alts come into the equation. Don't tell me a maxed Dreadnought is comparable to a maxed Frigate as a "character".

What it comes down to is that in other games you can close the gap between yourself and a veteran player, because your progression is directly proportional to your actual playtime and effort. In EVE, the best you can hope for is that other players unsubscribe periodically.
 

As already stated, you fail at comprehending EvE.

In other news:

I am always confused by this need to ‘catch up’ (or another WoW favorite – ‘have balanced classes’).

Veteran players have more ISK, skills, and experience than new ones?!?!

A player that began playing EvE in 2006 will (generally) perpetually have a larger skill point pool than one that started in 2009?!?!

Why are these things so shocking?

I started playing EvE in 2008. I’ve tried my hand at various professions (mining, couriering, exploring, and PvP), so my skills are somewhat spread out. Currently I’m fitting T1 frigs and roaming solo through lowsec looking for people to ransom. I get blown up a lot (especially because I’m still learning) but I also scanned down and jumped in on a veteran pirate from the Tuskers sitting at a planet and popped his Incursus with my Rifter (both T1 frigs). Know why? Because he was fit with short-range blasters and I was fit with Auto Cannons and Barrage Ammo – which meant that knowing my tactics and orbiting him at the edge of his weapon range allowed me to take him out with little-to-no damage to my ship i.e. right tools and tactics for the scenario, regardless of skill points.

To play EvE you must get over the idea of ‘max level’, ‘catching up’, and ‘balanced characters’ that are typically appropriated from other MMO’s. Play the game to enjoy it, not to be ‘the best’, and you’ll get WAY more out of it. In my experience, 9 times out of 10, knowledge and tactics wins the day over skill points.

As an aside: Check out The Blood Money Cartel. It’s an EvE pirate Corp that pretty much exclusively fly T1 frigs – and they kill a lot of big ships in those frigs.
 

---

Originally posted by CyberWiz
they are for shooting player owned sructures in 0.0 only, they can't go to low or higsec and they can't dock, meaning you ALWAYS have to be in the ship or someone steals it.

---

You're wrong.

Originally posted by batolemaeus

 

---

Originally posted by CyberWiz
they are for shooting player owned sructures in 0.0 only, they can't go to low or higsec and they can't dock, meaning you ALWAYS have to be in the ship or someone steals it.

---

 

You're wrong.

Always willing to learn, please elaborate.

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by batolemaeus You're wrong.

 

Always willing to learn, please elaborate.

You are thinking of Titans and Motherships (now Super Carriers).  Dreads and Carriers can be docked.  My Nid has been sitting docked in lowsec for a year now.  It going to take a truckload of WD40 and duct tape to get that thing flying again. :)

What most people are saying about catching up is true...  It really doesn't matter that much.  I was able to roll an Amarr pirate in a couple weeks and, with careful target selection, solo cruisers.  That character had roughly 1.5 million skillpoints.  I was able to do it because I knew the tactics for the ship and I planned my skills accordingly.  Experience trumps skillpoints any day.  You can catchup in experience by joining a training guild, reading all you can, and asking questions.

Eve really is the best MMO in existence.  I think all the people who make it past the initial learning curve would agree.

All Capitals can enter lowsec, supercaps too. Only supercaps can't dock.

Originally posted by OldBiker

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by batolemaeus You're wrong.

 

Always willing to learn, please elaborate.

 

You are thinking of Titans and Motherships (now Super Carriers).  Dreads and Carriers can be docked.  My Nid has been sitting docked in lowsec for a year now.  It going to take a truckload of WD40 and duct tape to get that thing flying again. :)

What most people are saying about catching up is true...  It really doesn't matter that much.  I was able to roll an Amarr pirate in a couple weeks and, with careful target selection, solo cruisers.  That character had roughly 1.5 million skillpoints.  I was able to do it because I knew the tactics for the ship and I planned my skills accordingly.  Experience trumps skillpoints any day.  You can catchup in experience by joining a training guild, reading all you can, and asking questions.

Eve really is the best MMO in existence.  I think all the people who make it past the initial learning curve would agree.

 

I stand corrected then, thought none of the capitals could dock.

It is the best MMO currently in existence for many people including me, I agree :p

I can also understand how many people have a hard time getting into it, joining a good corp like EVE University, that can learn you alot certainly helps.

Oh and I just calculated, it takes almost 6 months to fly a T2 fitted Battlecruiser well. I find that quite reasonable.

It takes another 4 months to fly a command ship well, that is a T2 battlecruiser. Not too bad imho.

Originally posted by OldBiker

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by batolemaeus You're wrong.

 

Always willing to learn, please elaborate.

 

You are thinking of Titans and Motherships (now Super Carriers).  Dreads and Carriers can be docked.  My Nid has been sitting docked in lowsec for a year now.  It going to take a truckload of WD40 and duct tape to get that thing flying again. :)

What most people are saying about catching up is true...  It really doesn't matter that much.  I was able to roll an Amarr pirate in a couple weeks and, with careful target selection, solo cruisers.  That character had roughly 1.5 million skillpoints.  I was able to do it because I knew the tactics for the ship and I planned my skills accordingly.  Experience trumps skillpoints any day.  You can catchup in experience by joining a training guild, reading all you can, and asking questions.

Eve really is the best MMO in existence.  I think all the people who make it past the initial learning curve would agree.

 

I have been playing for many years , 4+ with different toons and I have to say this man speaks the truith.

Experience, knowledge of game mechanics, will carry you MUCH FURTHER than sp will. Is sp useful? Sure is, sp lets you change roles and fly different ships and do different things. At first you can only fly frigates, and fulfill a tackler or damage support role, which many consider to be a role for noobs, however, I cannot count the number of times a good ceptor pilot was able to get a point on that key target, and hold him down long enough for your heavier ships to get on top of him.

One fight I was involved in between my old corp, Esto Perpetua, and Stain empire where tackling resulted in an overwhelming win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biHBO_tH5rQ

Their 10ish man fleet jumped into our similar sized fleet in 6y-otw system 0.0, however they didnt all come in together, they kind of trickled in. They basicly got ripped to pieces 1 by 1 and were unable to concentrate their fire effectivly or coordinate effecitvly. They had 2 ECM ships, a scorpion and a falcon, The scorpion was dead for rights as it was stuck in the bubble and was vulnurable to fire, where as the falcon was forced to gtfo the bubble and come back at range before it could jam effectivly, both ships were setup for jamming which means they didnt have much of a tank. Range is their defense, and with the bubble it nullified the scorpions advantage, and delayed the falcon pilot from the fight long enough to make piecemeal out of most of their fleet.
 

Had it been a proper setup, their falcon and scorp would have been at range and would have locked down a good portion of our fleets DPS, including my guardian which you can also see saves TWO of our ships from popping in the video.

And the very last ship of theirs we got was a nighthawk, he had to be atleast 150km + range, He was too far away from ANY of us to get him before he warped, EXCEPT for the interceptor pilot. Our crow was able to tackle him, though he was popped in the process. This is sometimes refered to as suicide tackle. However, the crow pilot served his role and though he lost his 30 mil (total estimated cost) interceptor, he allowed us to get a nighthawk kill that we wouldnt have got otherwise. Nighthawks are 200+ mil ,

So for anyone who says tackling is uselsss or small ships are pointless in eve, think again. Every ship has a role and  use, fulfilling that role in a group or solo setting is what makes the diff between a good player and a bad.

LOL, and it goes round and round. As always.

The bottom line is that you have to buy a character or tag along and be a disposable 'tackler' (real entertaining, that one, you basically consume a few seconds and a few shots/missiles/volleys of the opposing player) or eat training time for a few years, minimum.

The only decent argument I saw was someone running PvE and barely got caught by another player with less time in. The only thing is, the attacking player was probably fitted for PvP (tactics to the newer player, sure), but the new player was in for 1.75 years versus five. LOL.

How many ppl looking into starting up Eve wanna be competitive in 2 years? Raise your hands...

Yes, there are a finite number of skills. I doubt even the 1.75 year player had everything maxed that addressed the ship he was flying. Even if it was T1. T1 is not competitive in 0.0. Can  you make a few kills? Sure if you luck out and have a good corp. But you are gonna be buying ISK to keep yourself fitted. Can you make lots of money in Eve? Sure, but you can't be training to be 'competitive' in some as yet undefined period of mere months in PvP and still be training all your indy skills or trade skills to be decent at trading.

New Players: It requires both player skill AND character skill (which is lots of time or money) to be competitive in lowsec or nulsec. Don't let any of these guys fool you. If you have a nice corp, you might make some sort of contribution in about 6~9 months. Otherwise, you'll be told to play the role of cannon fodder if they even let you in. Most have SP minimums right up front.

probably been said already ..... but ..

In level based games, 1 million Level 1 noobs wailing on a maxed Level character will achieve nothing

they will not be able to hit the high level char, thier spells will constantly fail etc etc

if you have 1 million anything wailing on you in eve, your DEAD !!! 

lag permitting of course

Originally posted by WizardBlack

LOL, and it goes round and round. As always.

The bottom line is that you have to buy a character or tag along and be a disposable 'tackler' (real entertaining, that one, you basically consume a few seconds and a few shots/missiles/volleys of the opposing player) or eat training time for a few years, minimum.

The only decent argument I saw was someone running PvE and barely got caught by another player with less time in. The only thing is, the attacking player was probably fitted for PvP (tactics to the newer player, sure), but the new player was in for 1.75 years versus five. LOL.

How many ppl looking into starting up Eve wanna be competitive in 2 years? Raise your hands...

Yes, there are a finite number of skills. I doubt even the 1.75 year player had everything maxed that addressed the ship he was flying. Even if it was T1. T1 is not competitive in 0.0. Can  you make a few kills? Sure if you luck out and have a good corp. But you are gonna be buying ISK to keep yourself fitted. Can you make lots of money in Eve? Sure, but you can't be training to be 'competitive' in some as yet undefined period of mere months in PvP and still be training all your indy skills or trade skills to be decent at trading.

 

New Players: It requires both player skill AND character skill (which is lots of time or money) to be competitive in lowsec or nulsec. Don't let any of these guys fool you. If you have a nice corp, you might make some sort of contribution in about 6~9 months. Otherwise, you'll be told to play the role of cannon fodder if they even let you in. Most have SP minimums right up front.

What?

You mean that I can't join this game...play for 6 months, and be just as skilled (player and character) as another character that's 5 years in?!?!

Players that have been playing longer are (generally) going to have more money, friends, assets, and (character) skill than me?!?!?

I can't train to be the best trader, PvPer, miner, PvE missioner, etc all at the same time?!?!?

I can't drink copious amounts of Mountain Dew and stay up for 8 weeks straight to become the leetest, epic'd out, pewpew wtfpwner of all of EvE history?!?!?

Man, this game sucks. You should be able to power-level (?) to max competitiveness, attain all epic’d out purples, and wtfleetroflmaogtfopewpewpwn all the noobs in 3 months max!

Sigh. I wish they made a game like that...
 

I dont even think EVE is about "catching up". What are you going to catch up to? End game is what you make of it. Its all about having fun. Catching up is only important in games like WoW.