This started off as a reply to a long string of these complaints in another thread, but quickly got too wordy so I'm giving it it's own thread (haha me talking like starting random threads for stupid shit isn't common place here) Anyway here's my question.

What kind of exploration were you expecting exactly?

- Exploration in the form of having to find missions and such by running all over a map back and forth? That's nice and all, but it would be "exploration" for about two days before the various metadata sites mined the game to hell and had everything conveniently found and sorted away. That kind of exploration died years ago when this crap became the norm.

- Exploration like Eve? A boring minigame that spawns randomly generated "pockets" of the same crap over and over? Certainly you're not talking about just the act of moving around in Eve being "exploration" as there's nothing to explore besides large empty expanses and going from empty skybox to empty skybox. Technically, if you took away ground combat, and put a traditional map in place of the sector map, STO would be set up almost exactly like Eve as far as having little space "instances" they just don't hide it with warp gates.

- Exploration like Earth and Beyond? While a cool system, it hardly justified a game by itself, just flying to nav points and having it reveal that system on the map for you. It's also horrendously simple that it could be added to the game at any time if they so chose to go in that direction.

- ?

Basically, what I'm getting at here is there's been a lot of "BAWW MY EXPLORATION!" but nobody explaining what it should have been like, at least, not with in the realms of what would be technically reasonable. There are barely any MMOs that ever went on the market that even ATTEMPTED some kind of exploration system, and even fewer that came close to making anything remotely like a good functional "real exploration system".

The spirit of exploration is there in STO, but it's completely non-tangible. It's reflected in the missions, lore, etc, but it's not something you actually "do." Considering how stupidly difficult it apparently is to do exploration, I can't exactly blame them for focusing more on the action oriented parts of star trek.

Additionally, keep in mind, this is an MMO, and as TCoS and numerous other MMOs that tried to revive the old "lets not hold hands, let them find things on their own" MMOs have shown, sadly, the majority of the MMO community is used to being coddled, resulting in them whining and bitching and moaning to a degree far worse than what's going on now about how they can't find anything and how the game is "too hard" or "broken" because there's no GIANT GLOWING ARROW to the next quest, or god forbid, they should have to READ THE QUEST TEXT to find something.

So honestly, if this was such a major travesty that should have been expected of them, put up or shut up. Lets see your "exploration system", and post it in the suggestions at STO for good measure. Trust me, I'd love to see this, I've been thinking myself on a system for a long time, but I simply don't see an entire game being based around it, nor do I see most developers willing to put the time into something that risky right off the bat.

Something I would like to explore in Star Trek.

http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/9fb3a1b0-cebe-4e94-80f2-05abccbc7444

Originally posted by Jeowan

Something I would like to explore in Star Trek.

http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/9fb3a1b0-cebe-4e94-80f2-05abccbc7444

In before joke about "heavenly bodies". =p

Originally posted by Jeowan

Something I would like to explore in Star Trek.

http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/9fb3a1b0-cebe-4e94-80f2-05abccbc7444

I will boldly go there

Originally posted by Jeowan

Something I would like to explore in Star Trek.

http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/9fb3a1b0-cebe-4e94-80f2-05abccbc7444

Id take her to the holodeck, 

And id leave with a holo....

Sector Map. My gripe Number 1 about exploration in STO is the damn Sector Map. First, it feels like travelling a map of space and not space itself by the poor design. Then, when I see Picard or Kirk or Janeway explore new "worlds" I have this idea they go into VAST unknow space. To make an example from ground based: take SWG's planets. THEY were huge and they allowed real exploring, because real exploring demands real huge space, including space with nothing special and that a world isn't crammed and reduced to the needed stuff. You never could explore Antonica in EQ2, because every 4 meters was a nother bear, badger or whatnot and those worlds are way too tiny.

Same with the Sector Space map. It would have to be 10 or 20 times as big, and it would have to be black in the unknown regions, and not all open and discovered. For a Star Trek space the map and the possible regions of space are WAAAY to small.

You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.

The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..

This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

Originally posted by Nesrie

You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.

The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..

This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

what he said

This game sounds like Cryptic's Champion Online. Another MMO without the MMO.

Originally posted by ConjureOne

Originally posted by Nesrie

You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.

The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..

This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

 

what he said

Yea, thats basically the nail in the coffin on this one.

Do people seriously consider the sector space map as anything more than a glorified if poorly done navigation map? If the actual mission areas in both sectors are exactly the same, then yeah, that's lame. But who the hell cares if the stupid sector map looks the same?

" I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead."

Which could be said of every MMO out there at the moment. You might as well say "I don't want to spend $15 to go over there and kill 5 lvl 2 klingons so I'm going to go back to WoW where the game has REAL DEPTH and quests...where you go over there and fight 5 lvl 2 orcs." Additionally, maybe it's because I've only been playing two weeks, but I have yet to run into much repeating content as far as space goes, but then again I've been doing story missions entirely, and not so much the random encounter ones.
 
"The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah.."

That would be nice. However, once again, I'm pointing to the problem where people lack the perspective of technical practicality and scale. Sure, its easy to say "but SWG has big planets ;;" yes, but its also out for how many years? And it had exactly how many planets like that? There's nothing saying they couldn't add persistent planets in the future, but crafting huge worlds for every world in the game is going to result in A: A small handful of available worlds or B: an impossible task of essentially making several MMOs in one, and having it ready for launch.
 
Look, I'm not saying the game is sunshine and rainbows. It needs improvement. But it hasn't even freaking launched yet, so comparing content to games that have been out for years upon years is not a fair assessment. I can accept that trek fans and other people might flat out hate the game because they wanted things a particular way or wanted the game to focus on THIS instead of THAT.
That being said, I hardly think its fair to call the game a "worthless shell" and throw random bashings and accusations at it. The hardest part about making an MMO based off an established IP is that, no matter what you do, you will never, ever, EVER please the rabid fanbase of that IP. It simply can't be done. The best you can do is pick a direction and go with it.

For me, STO in the long run will live or die based on how they choose to support the game and expand on it. If they just throw randomly generated crap and half ass the features they put in, yeah, its gonna suck. If they actually continue to work on and flesh out things like the bridge and such (which were only put in and developed recently, mainly because people asked for it so damn much) then it has the potential to be a fairly solid game. It's definitely different as far as MMOs go, but with space/ground situations, I'm not sure how they could realistically go with anything but the setup they have now.

oh yeah, and the bridge SUX ass btw :)

You BEAM in and out to bridge... and in the description it says "VISIT THE BRIDGE". Like. Seriously? Visit the bridge? Isnt that supposed to be the place you are at 99% of the time, since you're the f'ing captain of the ship? And where exactly do you beam OUT when you leave the bridge?...

And I didnt even bother saying how generaly bad the bridge is done...

Originally posted by Nesrie

You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.

The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..

This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

This is what I think too.

Originally posted by Nesrie

You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.

The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..

This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

Yes and Yes.

 I actually havent seen many comparisons being made other than the ones to the other cryptic games. You cannot compare STO as an MMO to others because it is so far removed from being a MMO that its not possible. Is that a bad thing? Not really but trying to convince people that something they see as lacking is not serves no purpose. In your mind it has all these great things but a large amount of people are generally unhappy with the rushed out direction that the company took.

Originally posted by Nesrie

You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.

The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..

This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

You say it like there's no reason to actually do those things in the game's lore.

@ the OP

If there's a game that did exploration right it would be EVE, you failed to mention wormholes as part of Eve's exploration and only focused on the hidden deadspace pockets which could also be considered as exploration and on top of the scannable deadspace pocket you could get an expedition (escalation) which leads to more exploration in a sense. But the main exploration is in form of wormholes which you have to scan down and could lead to unknown sleeper space as well as 0.0, losec and other hisec spaces, this to me is exploration and could easily be done in some form in STO.

THE IDEA:

Add a function to ships that allows the scan systems to register strange disturbances in space, science ships would be particularly good at this. These strange disturbances can be located by a science officer with the skill to operate and launch probes and when the strange disturbance is located, it can then be warped to and explored.

Its not hard to come with an idea, the implementation is where the meat is though. The very game that has the best mechanic for exploration is the one you pushed to one side as boring but if modified it could fit very well into the trek universe and gameplay.

Dont make things more complex than they are. Exploration simply means that you go to places that are unknown. Since STOs "world" is so small and most of the sites are already pointed out for you there is very little to explore. Atleast from what I have seen.

And game being so linear does not help either.

PS. There are no instances in Eve, none. There are always only one version of any area and anyone could technically go there.

Only thing I have to say about a space exploration, discovering alien races, engaging diplomacy with alien races, engaging combat with aliens, and generally visiting planets with a shuttle...... Star Control 2 > Star Trek online.

Star Control 2 had so much more in exploration and so many ways to go about that game than star trek online will ever have.

If anything that these developers could of learned from a previous space game it would of been that. That game had map grids when you traveled into hyper space you traveled all around real constilations and galaxies. Alpha Centarui, Vulpechulae system, Draconis System, and dozens of other systems in that game that you can explore and see and also encounter many various aliens.

Not only was this game back in released back in 1993 every encounter with aliens had voice dailog with their own language and if you didn't understand it they had a little interpreter so you could.

Just face the fact that Star Trek is a dream that was rushed out and now its going to face the consequences of floping miserably. Because it fails in all aspects as a true MMO and anything to do with Star Trek in General.

For those of you that might be intrested you can download an actual Star Control 2 game here.......

http://sc2.sourceforge.net/downloads.php

Even works with vista and windows 7.0 too

---

Originally posted by Nesrie
You know the difference between the Sirruis Sector and the Regulus Sector, pretty much nothing. It's the same blue tactical map with different text, the text being the names of the planets, or astroids or spacedock. There is nothing here but a string of script instances that feel hardly connected at all. It's just.. empty, lacking the kind of depth you would expect from an MMO with a rich IP. I enjoy the battles to a point, but after awhile, I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead.
The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah..
This gaming is missing something. I'll play to the end of beta to make up my mind, but as bad as the lag and bugs and the sign on server issues is... that's not the part that makes me hesitate.

---

Well said, exactly how I feel as well. I want to land on Vulcan and find POIs at my leisure. Or land on Risa and explore the vacation areas talked about in the show. The planet could be a huge social hub with minigames and other fluff things to do. Plus the planet had Ruins that Captain Picard went and studied. I WANT to do that too. But I cannot in the game as it is. I seriously am doubting Cryptic's ability to create a game with any depth worthy of the MMORPG nomenclature.

Originally posted by Kordesh

Do people seriously consider the sector space map as anything more than a glorified if poorly done navigation map? If the actual mission areas in both sectors are exactly the same, then yeah, that's lame. But who the hell cares if the stupid sector map looks the same?

" I am not going to want to pay 15 bucks a month to kill 5 squads of level 1 klingons, and then go over to this other planet and kill 5 squads of level 2 klingons, and just for variety sake, let's go over to this instance and kill 5 Orion squads instead."

Which could be said of every MMO out there at the moment. You might as well say "I don't want to spend $15 to go over there and kill 5 lvl 2 klingons so I'm going to go back to WoW where the game has REAL DEPTH and quests...where you go over there and fight 5 lvl 2 orcs." Additionally, maybe it's because I've only been playing two weeks, but I have yet to run into much repeating content as far as space goes, but then again I've been doing story missions entirely, and not so much the random encounter ones.
 
"The lack of ability to actually land on say vulcan and walk around, to visit Risa and check things out is pretty blah.."

That would be nice. However, once again, I'm pointing to the problem where people lack the perspective of technical practicality and scale. Sure, its easy to say "but SWG has big planets ;;" yes, but its also out for how many years? And it had exactly how many planets like that? There's nothing saying they couldn't add persistent planets in the future, but crafting huge worlds for every world in the game is going to result in A: A small handful of available worlds or B: an impossible task of essentially making several MMOs in one, and having it ready for launch.
 
Look, I'm not saying the game is sunshine and rainbows. It needs improvement. But it hasn't even freaking launched yet, so comparing content to games that have been out for years upon years is not a fair assessment. I can accept that trek fans and other people might flat out hate the game because they wanted things a particular way or wanted the game to focus on THIS instead of THAT.
That being said, I hardly think its fair to call the game a "worthless shell" and throw random bashings and accusations at it. The hardest part about making an MMO based off an established IP is that, no matter what you do, you will never, ever, EVER please the rabid fanbase of that IP. It simply can't be done. The best you can do is pick a direction and go with it.

For me, STO in the long run will live or die based on how they choose to support the game and expand on it. If they just throw randomly generated crap and half ass the features they put in, yeah, its gonna suck. If they actually continue to work on and flesh out things like the bridge and such (which were only put in and developed recently, mainly because people asked for it so damn much) then it has the potential to be a fairly solid game. It's definitely different as far as MMOs go, but with space/ground situations, I'm not sure how they could realistically go with anything but the setup they have now.

This.