Originally posted by VultureSkull

 

Yeah you draw the line at Expansions, which, like it or not, is a massive form of RMT. And like it or not RMT is unofficial rife in almost all games(MMOs), made available by Gold Sellers.

Let me ask you : what the difference between going  to an RMT and buying an item with real cash and going to buy gold from a gold seller with real cash and then buying same item from the auction house? Answer= RMT is safe and you wont get your cc details stolen etc.

And finally, there are a lot of moaners that complain that MMO companies want to make money and the same people complain that games are not released complete, polished and content rich.

 If MMO devs dont make money how on earth are they going to make the games you want? You think your government  subsidises them lol!

It is not as if the MMO producers are rolling in cash, it is a poor industry and the only ones who will pay for it are the players(us). So either pay up or shut down cos you cannot have your cake and eat it!! Sounds like you want free entertainment load of cheap skates!

My God guys wake up and smell the coffee already!!

There is just half truth in your statment.  Of course MMO devs need to make money to make games.  The question is HOW are they going to do that.  

Making an MMO game is expensive - Just like designing a new car.  If you do not have the funds to create the MMO that you are Promoting - then just skip it.  Or go design a bicycle instead if the funds dont cut for the car.  Get it ? 

Good games do not need sale tricks to prevail... Bad games do ... AOC - WAR, Champions online.  All these game launched with FAULTY concepts of general gameplay.  ALL of them were said to be this and that - when in fact they were noting other than a pre-order trick to "feed the developers". 

I have yet to see a top notch game beeing totally ignored cause it didn't get the right publishity... And that publishity is from the GAMERS. 

Have fun paying $240.00 - then $15.00 for a respec - then $5.00 for a cute cuddly pet! - Then $10.00 for a new crew outfit! - Then $9.99 for a new char slot!

Cryptic wtf happened to you guys?

LOTRO offers lifetime subs - they did NOT introduce cash shops into their game. Simple as that.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Blurr

I've been playing MMOs since they started and I hate to brake it to you, but just because we had it cheap before, doesn't mean we should have it cheap now.

Where is your breaking point? What wouldn't you personally pay for? Like any sane person, I judge this on a case-by-case basis. Not based on some set of idealistic rules I'm trying to artificially force into the community because I think all mmos and players should be exactly my way. For example, Global Agenda. I really like that style of gameplay, but the game just doesn't offer me enough to pay monthly for it. I would consider getting it and doing the free version, but I already own TF2 which fills enough of that gameplay for me. That doesn't mean I go to the GA forums and start bitching that they should make the game free to buy too. I vote with my wallet, which is the most signifigant vote that you can give. If developers want my money, they will make a game that I want to pay for.

Offering lifetime subscriptions is a way to give a reward to people who are willing to commit to a game early.

No, it's not a reward. No more than an extended warranty for an appliance is a reward. It is a business strategy.

It is a gamble that you will quit playing the game before you have spent more on monthly sub fees than the cost of the lifetime sub. How many players do you think will play this game for a year and a half?

Cryptic believes less than half will, or this wouldn't be offered.
This couldn't be more false. There's no difference between a lifetime sub and a 3 or 6 month sub. You subscribe to a certain amount of time upfront, and you get some sort of reward. If you subscribe to a larget amount of time, you get a larget reward. The only difference is a lifetime is the largest amount of time you can subscribe to, and it comes with an additional ingame reward, which by the way doesn't offer any real gameplay advantage here either. It's like when you get your cellphone for $0 if you sign up for a 3 year contract. Nobody freaks out when WoW or other games do this. "Oh my god, they're offering 6 month subs, they must be betting that you won't play more than half that so they can take your money now" Does that make sense? Absolutely not.  

Some people know they like a game this much, shouldn't they be allowed to buy in if they want to? People are allowed to make their own decisions, calling them names and saying the company is just trying to steal their money is juvenile and seems bitter.

Scamming isn't stealing. 

Also I have to say, this whole "scam" argument that people are making is perhaps the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Game companies don't spend millions of dollars and years of work developing a game, only to get to launch day and say "Oh it sucks, lets gouge them for money and run off with it". That is literally a dumb argument.  It's entirely contrary to the idea of an MMO, where the majority of money is made off of subscriptions.

If anything, the lifetime sub deal is MORE restrictive than the CO one was. Shorter availability, higher cost, smaller group of people who are eligible to get it.

Caveat emptor stinks as social policy.

Worse is hold people's hands because they're too stupid to make a decision for themselves.

Originally posted by Player_420

Have fun paying $240.00 - then $15.00 for a respec - then $5.00 for a cute cuddly pet! - Then $10.00 for a new crew outfit! - Then $9.99 for a new char slot!

Cryptic wtf happened to you guys?

LOTRO offers lifetime subs - they did NOT introduce cash shops into their game. Simple as that.

And LOTRO also didn't force players into buying the Lifetime sub before the game was even released.
 

sucks that they won't give players a chance to play the game for maybe a month frist to see if they like it...i'm going to buy the game but i can't buy a lifetime subscription before i play the game..... who would???

I'm kind of amused by all the hate going on here.  MT's are here to stay, we're going to see more of them in more games.  I'm not going to deprive myself of a game I like so I can feel like I'm somehow Sticking It To The Man.  If the game lasts more than 16 months, I've got my money's worth.  It's that simple.  I got a lifetime on LotRO and was pretty happy with that outcome. 

Playable borg?  I could take it or leave it.  Extra slots are handy, but whether it's a big deal or not depends on how many slots we get to begin with.  I'm a alt junkie, so I'll probably fill them if it's 5 or 155.  The extras aren't the point of interest for me, it's the long term deal.  So, if Cryptic goes under in the next 16-17 months, gosh.  I'll swig a bottle of Somebody or Other Told Me So and be annoyed.  I doubt we'll see that happening though.  Granted, I was in CB for quite some time, enough to get a feel for if I liked the basic system and where it was heading, so I can see why someone who hasn't had a sample wouldn't buy the whole thing up front.  

Originally posted by madjackred

I'm kind of amused by all the hate going on here.  MT's are here to stay, we're going to see more of them in more games.  I'm not going to deprive myself of a game I like so I can feel like I'm somehow Sticking It To The Man.  If the game lasts more than 16 months, I've got my money's worth.  It's that simple.  I got a lifetime on LotRO and was pretty happy with that outcome. 

Playable borg?  I could take it or leave it.  Extra slots are handy, but whether it's a big deal or not depends on how many slots we get to begin with.  I'm a alt junkie, so I'll probably fill them if it's 5 or 155.  The extras aren't the point of interest for me, it's the long term deal.  So, if Cryptic goes under in the next 16-17 months, gosh.  I'll swig a bottle of Somebody or Other Told Me So and be annoyed.  I doubt we'll see that happening though.  Granted, I was in CB for quite some time, enough to get a feel for if I liked the basic system and where it was heading, so I can see why someone who hasn't had a sample wouldn't buy the whole thing up front.  

and what if you end up hating the game after the frist 2 months....it's a lot of money to put down for a game before you ever get to play it....most people don't want to get burned like that.....

Am I the only one who is getting more and more wary the more news comes out about this game?  

First off the ground combat just seems totally hokey and City of Heroes Esque.  Lots of people standing around and basically standing still and shooting.  Though I did notice flanking bonuses so there's maybe some tactics going on there somewhere. I'm only watching videos of people playing the Beta (thank you Giantbomb) so I have no first hand knowledge here so I can be a little iffy on this bit.

Then there is the whole Champions Online thing and it's Lifetime that pays for STO beta access.  That was a big mess.

Now this life time offer before the game is out of Beta?  No thanks.  This is only reenforcing my desire to not pay for this game in box form nor even think about paying for it at all utnil I can play it.  The entire thing seems to fishy to me and I'm too big a Trekkie to jump into this from faith alone.  Been burned to many times.  :\

Originally posted by madjackred

I'm kind of amused by all the hate going on here.  MT's are here to stay, we're going to see more of them in more games.  I'm not going to deprive myself of a game I like so I can feel like I'm somehow Sticking It To The Man.  If the game lasts more than 16 months, I've got my money's worth.  It's that simple.  I got a lifetime on LotRO and was pretty happy with that outcome. 

...

If the game lasts more than 16 months...

I would say the question isn't how long the game lasts - but how long your fun lasts?

I just posted this on another forum where STO fever seems to have taken hold

...based on what I have read the game is 'fun'.

The critical question is however - is it long term fun?
Because that is what makes MMOs succeed or fail.

Interestingly, many developers do not seem to know the difference.

For example:
Sid Meier's Pirates! (2004) was fun. It was a great game. You played it through a couple of times and after about two weeks to a month you were done. Sometimes you may even drag it out again for a week when you have nothing else to play?
And it really doesn't matter in that case because you already paid for the box. The Developer has already got all the money they ever really expected to get from you. They don't care if you play for a week - or a year.
Pirates of the Burning Sea (2008) was also 'fun'. In much the same way as Sid Meier's Pirates! in many ways (the Travel Map even looked like Sid Meier's Pirates). But what works for a single player game does not work for a MMO. MMOs need players to stay - not just because their revenue models depend on it - but because their community depends on it. Community is another element an MMO needs that really doesn't matter for single player games.

So an MMO needs that long term fun factor.
Pirates of the Burning Sea didn't have that.
Neither did Champions Online.
Both games were 'fun' but not that sort of fun that makes people want to stay and keep playing for months.

And this is where my interest has been in STO and why the Lifetime Subscription with pre-order ONLY has got my attention.

I have read lots of accounts of the STO Beta and I have to say Cryptic have been clever. They have never allowed players to find out if the game is long term fun or not.
Restricting Beta Test "windows" to just a few hours at a time keeps players in that short term zone.
It keeps players wanting that next 'hit'.
But what many players are not asking themselves is "If I could play this game everyday on my own terms would I still want to? Will this game still be fun in a month?"

I think Cryptic knows the answer.
I think Cryptic knows that this game is 'short term fun' like Champions Online. I think they know that after release the player retention will be poor and that's why I think they are offering all these 'sweet deals' now.

I think that developers have realized that the heavily instanced world designs do not work for MMOs.
It breaks the 'immersion' and that is a bigger factor than many of us realized.  It doesn't seem like much - but it works like Chinese Water Torture - eventually breaking you down one loading screen at a time.
This is why I think SOE's The Agency went on the back burner after the player reaction to PotBS.

DDO uses a similar approach of course - and that seems to be working - but ironically the instanced approach is appropriate for the material there.
DDO will be the WoW of 'instanced MMOs' - it works.  But if other developers think they can clone it's success they are in for a rude shock.  Like people have tried to clone WoW - you can't copy a complete package unless you have the whole package.
IMHO the STO IP would not survive a DDO style F2P + Cash Shop style presentation.  It's simply a different audience expectation.

I really think Cryptic know all this... but their engine doesn't allow them to do this any other way... and it's waaaay to late to do anything else.

So, with cries of "I'MA GEETINK TEH PRE ORDA!" ringing out across the internet Cryptic are cashing in.
They know the bubble is going to burst so they are getting what they can out of it now.

The sad thing is though that the Star Trek IP is so huge it will attract many first time MMO players to the genre.
And many will be so badly burned they will never return.
"There is no love like your first love" - from "Blowing up Galaxies", The Escapist.
 

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/266094/Lifetime-subs-will-be-available-after-the-general-release.html

I think someone has yet to have laid down the main points of a lifetime subscription in terms that everyone (pro or con) can understand. Here's the crux of it:

A lifetime subscription is only of value to the consumer if all of the following occur:

1) You enjoy the game for at least as long as the FULLY DISCOUNTED price that you would have paid if you hadn't bought it. In most cases, this will work out to around $12/month, not $15. So, you lifetimers have to get two years of enjoyment out of the game.

2) Cryptic has to care enough about the game to keep it running at least that long. They're under no obligation to ensure you get your money's worth and can shut the game down at any time, assuming their reasons are not fraudulent (for instance, the player base dwindles to nearly nothing and it costs more to keep the servers up than they are able to bring in. They CAN close down at any time that is reasonable given the cost of development and the profits they are unable to make at a certain point.).

3) Cryptic has to commit to continually improving the game, otherwise even the most diehard person is going to get bored with the original content. I'm sure this will happen for a time, but who knows how long it will last?

I'm obviously not a fan of the lifetime subscription, but that's just because it removes a lot of the power from the hands of the consumer, where it belongs. If you love the game, great, you can pay a few months at a time, still save money, and enjoy it each and every month, while STILL being able to take a break for however long and come back to resubscribe. You're actually giving Cryptic less reason (financially) to support this game that you all love. It seems great now, but when they are looking at only lifetimers left online with no other money coming in, how long will your game realistically survive?

Originally posted by delateur

I think someone has yet to have laid down the main points of a lifetime subscription in terms that everyone (pro or con) can understand. Here's the crux of it:

A lifetime subscription is only of value to the consumer if all of the following occur:

1) You enjoy the game for at least as long as the FULLY DISCOUNTED price that you would have paid if you hadn't bought it. In most cases, this will work out to around $12/month, not $15. So, you lifetimers have to get two years of enjoyment out of the game.

2) Cryptic has to care enough about the game to keep it running at least that long. They're under no obligation to ensure you get your money's worth and can shut the game down at any time, assuming their reasons are not fraudulent (for instance, the player base dwindles to nearly nothing and it costs more to keep the servers up than they are able to bring in. They CAN close down at any time that is reasonable given the cost of development and the profits they are unable to make at a certain point.).

3) Cryptic has to commit to continually improving the game, otherwise even the most diehard person is going to get bored with the original content. I'm sure this will happen for a time, but who knows how long it will last?

I'm obviously not a fan of the lifetime subscription, but that's just because it removes a lot of the power from the hands of the consumer, where it belongs. If you love the game, great, you can pay a few months at a time, still save money, and enjoy it each and every month, while STILL being able to take a break for however long and come back to resubscribe. You're actually giving Cryptic less reason (financially) to support this game that you all love. It seems great now, but when they are looking at only lifetimers left online with no other money coming in, how long will your game realistically survive?

 

Nice logical thinking, Spock would be proud! Everyone that is on the fence should read your post 2-3 times just so it sinks in.

However, the problem that I see in regards to this offer of a lifetime sub as opposed to the LOTRO lifetime sub that many people seem to be comparing it to, is in fact your third point. While it is very obvious to most that Turbine has done a fine job in this area with LOTRO, does Cryptic have a similar track record and are they likely to do the same with STO?
 

Originally posted by daylight01

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by VultureSkull

I can not understand the black lash against this offer. We are consumers and Cryptic are offering us a CHOICE. This is the basis of the free market states that we all leave in. No one forces us do anything.....

It is up to you to take it or leave it. Ofc no one knows what will happen in the future but at the end of the day it is a choice. Your choice.

I commend Cryptic for offering this choice to its consumers!

I choose to get all content that has been made for the game on launch day, without having to give them an arm or a leg. I am very worried that other developers may try the same crap.

No-one is saying you have to give them an arm and a leg,I do not see anywhere that it says "to play this game you must have a lifetime sub"

It is an option,If I am out for a meal with my wife and the waiter asks if I would like to see the wine list I do not start shouting at him because he offered me something extra..I either accept and pay for the wine or just say no thanks and I go on and enjoy my meal.

I think quite a few are just complaining as they seen a chance to complain about something.

So, I guess it's ok for restaurants to charge regular price for food, but triple the cost for drinks? The content (Borg as a playable race) is in the game already. It should be available to everyone. If you think that is complaining, well I guess you are right.

@MrcdesOwnr: Thanks! I do try to make my posts as structured and understandable as possible, so I don't spend many more posts clarifying my original position. :)

I would add, however, to those who are excited about the Borg as a character class, that if you do NOT buy the lifetime subscription, you are almost guaranteeing that you will be able to purchase this option at a later date, or have it made available as a veteran reward for free. No company wants to see its labor go to waste, which is exactly what will happen if nobody purchases a lifetime subscription. Sure, some people will have the benefit of playing one out of the gate, but for those who wait, they're going to get a chance to play one down the road, once they've learned about all the skills, etc., so they can make the coolest Borg engineer ever!

 I agree they will maybe add it to the STO shop but I would not hold my breath for it,I think the chances of seeing it this year will be very very low.

Originally posted by daylight01

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/266094/Lifetime-subs-will-be-available-after-the-general-release.html

With significant financial and special in-game incentives to buying it BEFORE release, which is before, as someone wisely said, you can actually tell if the game will have long-term appeal to you.
 

I know a big part of why you are getting STO is about how much potential you feel it has, but as someone indicated above, potential is meaningless without the ability and desire to deliver on that potential.  Cryptic hasn't shown much ability to explore potential in the past with other games -- and there's easily just as much potential in a superhero game as there is in Star Trek.  Yeah, they could make it so you can use atmospheres to hide your ship, have open-ended first-contact that's not a Pass/Fail mission but one with variable results depending on your choices, exploration of undiscovered planets and systems that can be revisited later, deep non-combat gameplay, explorable ships with events and problems to solve on-ship, etc, etc, etc.  I honestly don't see any reason to think Cryptic is capable of making good content like that, given their past work; heck, I don't think they're interested.  So yes, in a sense STO has a lot of potential, much like all MMOs that have ever been released, but I don't see any reason to think it will remotely reach it.

Someone else in this thread talked about how only people who'd play for 2 years would buy a life-time sub, but that's just not how economics works.  People buy stuff they don't like all the time.  People pay for things to last longer than they are interested in them all the time.  If we were rational actors, then we'd not do that (without good reason), but if there's anything knowledge of economies show it is that people AREN'T rational actors.  Heck, there's an entire successful industry (advertising) that's focused on getting people to not be rational actors in economies.  One should be wary of this, as one is wary of game companies that really want you to give them a bunch of money when you don't even know what critical components of their game is like (end-game in STO, for instance).

It's a risk I'm aware of, just as I was aware of that risk with LoTRO, but chose not to take with Champions.  If the game folds or is some how sent to FUBAR land by forces yet unkown, then I'll have wasted some money.  But I can play Starfleet Command, in any incarnation, for days at a time even if I decided I didn't like this or that so it's not like the game will suddenly offer nothing to me.

I will absolutley not fork out any bills after playing the open beta. I found the game still needs lots of work and I find it boring. If I wanted to play a space shooter, I'd play Eve.

There are a couple of other factors to consider. One is the relationship people are drawing between this game and the success of City of Heroes. People need to remember that when Cryptic sold CoH to NCSoft, all of the original CoH developers stayed with NCSoft and formed Paragon. The only person that went with Cryptic, to my recollection, was Jack Emmert, the man who inflicted so much damage on a game that might have been so much better had he not had a part in it. These are not the people who developed City of Heroes! Completely different team.

The other factor to consider is the condition of the parent company Jack sold Cryptic to. Infogrames bought Cryptic in an attempt to make their Atari subsidiary viable. Atari is skating on thin ice financially and is dependant on STO being a hit. There are multi-million dollar executive bonuses on the line here. I'm pretty sure that no one involved with Champions Online saw any of that money. Cryptic has until May 2010 to turn STO into a money maker. When that doesn't happen, what is Infogrames going to do? STO has to be costing them bundles in franchise use from CBS. Will they continue to support a game that will only draw an initial influx of 30-day box purchasers and a languishing population of lifetimers who are paying nothing? I doubt it. The only option will be for them to boost the item shop and, judging from what Champions Online's shop offers, I don't think that will help. The big question is, how long will Infogrames be able to channel money into a game, based on a second-string Sci-Fi IP, that is destined to become a drain on an already floundering company?

The effect the next Star Wars MMO will have on Star Trek Online is predictable, so the question is, do you want to fling $300 (box and lifetime fee combined) at a game that likely has a viable lifespan of about a year, if they're lucky?

I absolutely agree.

I was unlucky enough not to get a beta key so I have never played the game so how can I make an informed decision.

I sincerely would love to try and then have the option for life long membership to buy it in the first say 3 months....that is a fair deal. But not before people even have the right to play.