Subscription = paying to play = paying to advance

Bottom line, whether its in a form of prepaid time or a cash-shop, it's the same thing, lucky for us both at the same time are unlikely, indeed cash-shops give offer us more flexibility at the expense of perceived 'fairness'. 

Also, it will never be possible to completely wipe away gold sellers and the like, short of insane monitoring likely to ruin -our- gaming experience. However, if the developers themselves implement a mechanism by means of which you can 'purchase' in-game advancement, be it money or anything else, well then you have to either accept it or leave.

But is it 'fair' for others to buy their way to a state you 'worked' so hard to achieve? No idea, its very much subjective,  for me theres nothing like rubbing it in to a 'I-pay-to-advance' player about his inferiority despite his monetary investments (because they tend to do the same), so following that line of though, I support games that want to go down that path, but only if they accommodate a way for dedicated players to get there through skill/hard work alone. Doesn't have to be too much, once I know I can obtain, for example, cash-shop items in-game, I'm content.

- Shijeer

LOL at people who pay to avoid playing the game that they're also paying to play.

I don't care if people can buy advancement. I don't see why anybody should care that player B can buy a 10x XP potion from a cash shop. It just means they will reach the end game faster which shouldn't really matter to you since you get to enjoy the journey there.

The problem is the mentality of those that complain about xp boosts bought from CS. Either you are jealous that people can advance faster which ultimately means you don't really care for the content that will get you there in due time. Or you feel you are in direct competition to other players when it comes to level advancement. Worry about your own hide. Don't worry about how the next guy gains 10 levels a day. So what if he gets to the end game faster what's it to you?

No the real problem is when you can buy gear. Because unlike levels i can understand why people compete with other PvE players over who has the best gear. There is prestige in it. Once you introduce a gear based CS that prestige switches from ingame accomplishments to real life monetary accomplishments. Who's the richest outside of the game that can put down $1000 without blinking an eye. When it comes to levels we will all get to the same place eventually. Not so with gear.

Yes if the game is design to be so,No if game is design around  it around it.Simply put if everybody knows that spending money is the way to advance in game their is no problem,Some players are paying a monthly fee and some people their real life money to by gold or characters it is unfair.

 If people are willing to pay for it and you know ahead of time its allowed then yes. There is no reason not to allow it based on that. Now if they change things on a whim one day thats a bit different.

Depends on the type of "advancement".

I don't care if someone wants to pay a few quid to powerlevel their character, with one important caveat .. that the progression rate without using RMT is not so slow as to effectively demand that everyone use it. As long as the natural progression rate is reasonable, then all the RMT crowd is doing is paying for a bit of a headstart.

Obviously, the ideal situation would be that the levelling process be fun enough that no-one would want to "skip" ahead, but I recognise a pipe-dream when I type one.

If you're talking overpowered gear, unique classes, races, etc .. then that's a resounding "No".

I'll clarify my position; I will never use a cash shop in an MMO. Not ever. If that means that I level a bit slower than other people, if I don't get some inconsequential fluff items .. then that's cool .. I'll still play that MMO.

If my refusal to partake of RMT excludes me from content; or if it gives other players an insurmountable advantage over me, then I just won't play that MMO.

Why even play the game then, FFS?

You don't have to keep up with everyone else. If you don't have as much time/energy to play, then you don't get as much stuff done. It's not the end of the world. Play to have fun and meet people. I feel sorry for those players who feel they have to be on par with everyone else. Heres some wisdom:  if you don't have all the best gear in the game, then you probably have a life. That is a good thing. Just be happy about it and have fun playing the game. You don't need the best items to have a good time, trust me.

---

Originally posted by Skarothlock

---

Originally posted by grandpagamer

No. Its in the same category as hacks and other exploits. The old " im too busy to advance" doesnt cut it. If someone doesnt have the time to play the game without cheating, they shouldnt play the game. 

---

 
It's not cheating if it is sanctioned by the game co. and open to all users
 
Skaroth

---

It is cheating even if its sanctioned. More importantly its cheating in the eyes of the people playing the game legitimately. D

Once you let players buy their way to the top, you discourage players who like to earn their way to the top via skill or time invested and these players make up the majority of the MMO market.

Infact its these people who drive the demand to buy gold. Its their legitimate play that provokes others to cheat and get ahead. Without legitimate play theres no reason to cheat or buy gold. If buying gold is legitimate them then theres no reason for a typical gold buyer to buy gold because they cant get ahead because everyone can buy gold freely. Thats where it all breaks down. Basically in the end it just makes the game more expensive which shrinks the potential market and playerbase size.

This is why gold selling must be kept illegal in any game to be considered legitimate. It woudl be like the goverment making drugs legal. Sure there are some things that maybe shouldnt be illegal but the fact that they are keeps a nice balance and check from letting things get too out of hand. I believe gold selling is one of those things that needs to be kept illegal and companies must find ways to get their cut other than selling the gold themselves.

Originally posted by Skarothlock

Originally posted by grandpagamer

No. Its in the same category as hacks and other exploits. The old " im too busy to advance" doesnt cut it. If someone doesnt have the time to play the game without cheating, they shouldnt play the game. 

 

It's not cheating if it is sanctioned by the game co. and open to all users

 

Skaroth

Exactly. Especially in a PvE game where it makes absolutely no difference what the guy next to you has or does since there is no competition.

I admit I have had toons power-leveled before. I no longer do this however. Not because of somebody else's bs sense of fairness or idea of what cheating is but because I noticed that when I get to the point I want someonet to PL my toon..I really don't want to play the game anymore.

Simple as that.

So yeah..I don't care if someone pays to have their toon PL'd...but I personally don't really see the point.

---

Originally posted by Loktofeit

---

Originally posted by Skarothlock

---

Originally posted by grandpagamer

No. Its in the same category as hacks and other exploits. The old " im too busy to advance" doesnt cut it. If someone doesnt have the time to play the game without cheating, they shouldnt play the game. 

---

 
It's not cheating if it is sanctioned by the game co. and open to all users
 
Skaroth

---

 
Exactly. Especially in a PvE game where it makes absolutely no difference what the guy next to you has or does since there is no competition.

---

If PVE doesnt matter why do you want to buy gold so you can buy crap to look cooler than the guy next to you?

RMT all the way. I wouldn't still be playing lineage 2 if i couldn't buy the adena and enjoy my pvp without having to worry about farm-time.

People can spend their money on whatever they want. If there is a market for it (obviously there is) then go for it. Personally, I know better than that and am not going to waste my hard earned money to power level, to buy gear, or anything else for my character. I play a game, just as a game. I'll pay up front for it and that's it, if I find it worthwhile to play long term then I'll be ok with a monthly fee. Cash for anything else in the game makes me a little aggrivated and I do not purchase it.

---

Originally posted by s1th80
RMT all the way. I wouldn't still be playing lineage 2 if i couldn't buy the adena and enjoy my pvp without having to worry about farm-time.

---

But would have you even started playing lineage if you could of bought all that stuff from the start? Wasnt the fact that it was hard to get or rare part of the attraction of playing the game which eventually led you to buy gold? How would you cheat and get ahead of other players if they're all allowed to buy gold from the start? You would want to play a game where everyone has everything? Whats the point?

Originally posted by bigtime102

 

---

Originally posted by Loktofeit

---

Originally posted by Skarothlock

---

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 

No. Its in the same category as hacks and other exploits. The old " im too busy to advance" doesnt cut it. If someone doesnt have the time to play the game without cheating, they shouldnt play the game. 

---

 

 
It's not cheating if it is sanctioned by the game co. and open to all users
 
Skaroth

---

 
Exactly. Especially in a PvE game where it makes absolutely no difference what the guy next to you has or does since there is no competition.

---

 

If PVE doesnt matter why do you want to buy gold so you can buy crap to look cooler than the guy next to you?

You're transferring your reason for doing things onto others. Some people just buy stuff for their personal amusement.

Originally posted by pyrofreak

I think that there is no problem with this, however, the two models should be kept separate.

 

Anyone who wants to pay to advance can play on server A, and anyone who can't/won't pay to advance can pay on server B. I really don't care how someone else chooses to play so long as it doesn't impact the way I play or am expected to play.

This is a decent idea, to kepp the 2 markets completely seperate on different servers. Even to the point of 1 server with a sub and the other just item mall. It would be interesting to see which one succeeds, my guess is it will depend on the game.

They may have problems getting fodder for the f2p model if the players can pay a sub, probably at the begining the item mall server would do well but over time I think there would be a huge migration.

That would all depend on the game be decent to start with of course. I also doubt it would be possible to make a decent f2p (at least the features I like in my mmo's) due to the nature that an item mall would require.

Once you give a developer the ok to charge you twice for the same product, they will do so and will continue to do so. Once you tell a developer "it's ok to charge for double exp or double strength", they will design the majority of all future content around this and make it a core game play mechanic.

Look at atlantica online. Started out free to play and at low levels, all licenses and special perks are available in game through in game mechanics. You can gamble for a cheap mount or buy it n the market, you can treasure hunt for low level licenses for teleport and travel, and so on. Some quests give you a few perky items and there are regular events that also dole out 1 day versions of cash shop items as well.

But the higher level you get, and the more you play, the more tedious these mechanics become until the only reasonable option left is cash shop. The price of in game items that are restricted towards level 120+s are so expencive that a "casual" high level player essentially has to sell cash shop items to cover the in-game price.  Sure, the 10 hours a day gamers can cover this with in-game farming but that's not the point. Ndoors is still getting it's money for each player and they are getting more than the standard 15 a month sub other games have. This works out since ndoors doesn't penalize people for buying gcoins with gold from other players but in other mmos where the company are RMT nazis (hey ncsoft), things tend to end rather badly.

Double dipping with subs and cashshops is the way to go if you want to make a lot of money. It's the worst possible scenario for us players but as long as there is one rich retard willing to basically pay for all our monthly fees while we become his or her personal gold farming army it works out all right. Assuming you can exchange the fake/worthless company currency with the fake/valuable game gold.

It doesn't make sense, from a developer's standpoint, to cater to both crowds. Appeasing the people who aren't dumb enough to pay for the same thing twice is the job of the community coordinator. Shut them up with empty words and vague promises. Besides, it would be counter productive to have a pure server and then indirectly insult your double payers with their own server that has an obvious stigma attached to it.

It's really easy to make a good f2p game. All you do is make a regular p2p game and monetize everything. Again, go back to atlantica online. In atlantica, you have to pay (generally speaking) real money to:

1. teleport from town to town, to dungeons, ect

2. see monster and player life bars

3. autoattack

4. auto collect drops

5. view monster parties (important for many quests and pvp) and those first 5 constitute your 15 dollar a month monthly fee.

then you have to pay another 15 dollars for

6. blessing license, which is  a 30day 50% atk/10% defense buff... unsurprisingly all pve content is designed with this buff being active.

coming to a 30 dollar a month monthly fee. But it doesn't stop there. Every month there are 2 gamble boxes released, for 1 dollar and 10 dollars each with clothing and mounts/wings. The odds are stacked in a way that you can buy 100 dollars worth of these boxes and not get the advertised item... and people buy these so much to the point that nearly all high level players have these clothes and a mount.

Class change and character body changes are also available to buy. On top of that there is a plethora of other items you can buy in the cash shop like guild icon changers, all consumable that have to be purchased in one way or another to advance. 

How does this apply to p2p games? Well let's monitize aion online. Mmorpg's favorite mmorpg of 2009. Using the teleport npcs? That's 5 dollars. Using the flight npcs in zone? Another 5 dollars. Want a custom icon on your level 3 legion? Monetize that too. No gold or silver medals because the other side is steam rolling you? 5 for 5 dollars at the cash shop. You know that wing seller in the middle of pand/sanctum? Hope you brought your credit card, she sells wings for ncoins now. Or she sells them for tokens that you get from a black cloud gift box (5 dollars each at the cash shop) that has a chance to have them. Want to see monster/enemy hp? 5 dollars at the cash shop. You know those powershards nobody uses? Well now they are really strong, but cost ncoins. Enjoy your pvp/pve cash shop advantage.

What else could we do... uh, plastic surgery ticket... 10 dollars! Oh wait, that's not a potential thing... that's a reality. Ncsoft is going to do that. Then of course there will be name changes and sex changes (because it costs so much money to access the in game character creator!) My friends, the hypothetical in this thread is sadly already here. We are on the edge and in a few years time, unless something drastic happens, we will all be either not playing mmos anymore or paying double for what use to be the best cost/time ratio hobby ever. All because a few people who had no business playing these games in the first place spoke up and said they would pay more to be better than everyone else. These are the same people who brought the bots and rmt problems here in the first place. And now they are the majority that companies love to cater D:

Originally posted by etikilam

Once you give a developer the ok to charge you twice for the same product, they will do so and will continue to do so. Once you tell a developer "it's ok to charge for double exp or double strength", they will design the majority of all future content around this ...

This is how I feel. If you are paying a monthly subscription fee you should be entitled to every aspect of a game or at least have the potential to be.

First it starts off as minor cosmetics that are no longer in the main game, but now in a cash shop. Then, eventually it escalates to items that increase your strength (and causes the game to be designed around them active), and then to races and classes that you have to pay extra for. All the stuff that USED to be covered by the initial subscription fee. 

Its like a F2P game just started charging a monthly fee and didn't even change their game.

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

Originally posted by etikilam

Once you give a developer the ok to charge you twice for the same product, they will do so and will continue to do so. Once you tell a developer "it's ok to charge for double exp or double strength", they will design the majority of all future content around this ...

This is how I feel. If you are paying a monthly subscription fee you should be entitled to every aspect of a game or at least have the potential to be.

First it starts off as minor cosmetics that are no longer in the main game, but now in a cash shop. Then, eventually it escalates to items that increase your strength (and causes the game to be designed around them active), and then to races and classes that you have to pay extra for. All the stuff that USED to be covered by the initial subscription fee. 

Its like a F2P game just started charging a monthly fee and didn't even change their game.

Which games added free races? Are new classes also often offered outside of expansions? With a subscription game, you pay 46-60 dollars to get all the new features, whether you want them or need them or can even use them. With item malls, you only buy those features if you want them.

Here's an example: World of Warcraft.  The last time I played was before TBC. If I want to join a friend in a WotLK quest, I would need to buy Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King to do that. That's about 70 USD just to join him in a dungeon or certain areas of the map. In a game with an item mall, I could probably buy an adventure pack for that dungeon/area or buy temporary access to it for maybe 10 USD.

Now, I'm not saying subscription games are bad. I am saying that this absurd vilification of F2P on the premise that you pay more is both false and ridiculous.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

This is a decent idea, to kepp the 2 markets completely seperate on different servers. Even to the point of 1 server with a sub and the other just item mall. It would be interesting to see which one succeeds, my guess is it will depend on the game.

They may have problems getting fodder for the f2p model if the players can pay a sub, probably at the begining the item mall server would do well but over time I think there would be a huge migration.

That would all depend on the game be decent to start with of course. I also doubt it would be possible to make a decent f2p (at least the features I like in my mmo's) due to the nature that an item mall would require.

Isn't this the way DnD is now? Subs get full access. F2p have to buy each part separately.