Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by VultureSkull 

You still have not explained how it is a great deal for Cryptic, simply repeating over and over will not make it true you know!

Either you are not making your point clear, or your math is seriously flawed.

$240 is a lot more money than $75. Is that not clear?

 

Yeah maybe my point is not getting across, nothing to do with maths.

Let me try and explain again: 

If i pay for a life time sub, and then stop after 3 months then i lose. That i agree on.

But I cannot see how Cryptic gain anyhting if I quit early. Cos they will not make any changes to their server or their development costs based on my quitting. They will not say "oh look one of our Life Time subs have quit we therefore do not need a server of X size anymore we can cut back and use a smaller server."

So if i played or not, it iwill not have any effect on Cryptic expenditure. One extra player on the server or the absence of one player will not have any effect on their costs. Hence no benefit to them if i quit early.

 If, when i quit, Crytic could reduce the supply of their service then they will benefit, if the supply remains unchanged (which is will) then they will not gain anything from my quitting.

Ulitmately Crytics cost are fixed and not variable based on one or two subs.

(AND even if they could reduce the servuice after i quit, they would not cos i could always come back, since i have a life time sub, and then they would have to increase the service again. )

I get what you are saying... and you are wrong.

You would be right IF (and only if) your lifetime sub guaranteed that you could always log in and play on demand - but it doesn't do that.  It doesn't do that at release - and it won't do that in 3 months or a year from now.

Cryptic will maintain a number of servers based on population in game.  They will allow for some load variation based on peak loads on weekends, holidays and special events.
But what they won't do is continue to maintain idle servers based on the possibility that all of their lifetime sub members all suddenly decide to log in together at once a year from now.

If that was ever to happen and they had removed servers do to a falling population (or hours played) then the harsh reality is that many of those people would not be able to log in.  Lifetime sub or not.

And what can you do about it?

Say "I have a lifetime sub - so it's my RIGHT to play ON DEMAND!"?
Well, you can say that, but it makes no difference.  Because somewhere in the terms and conditions it will say you are not guaranteed to be able to play every time you try to log in.  And no court would support you either because that is simply 'unreasonable'.

So that means that if you pay a lifetime sub - yes Cryptic get your money - and yes if you stop playing (along with many others) they can reduce their services.  They can cut servers and customer support and a host of other things.
They are NOT obliged to maintain a full service for years to come on the off chance you might decide to log in.

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by VultureSkull

I can not understand the black lash against this offer. We are consumers and Cryptic are offering us a CHOICE. This is the basis of the free market states that we all leave in. No one forces us do anything.....

It is up to you to take it or leave it. Ofc no one knows what will happen in the future but at the end of the day it is a choice. Your choice.

I commend Cryptic for offering this choice to its consumers!

I choose to get all content that has been made for the game on launch day, without having to give them an arm or a leg. I am very worried that other developers may try the same crap.

No-one is saying you have to give them an arm and a leg,I do not see anywhere that it says "to play this game you must have a lifetime sub"

It is an option,If I am out for a meal with my wife and the waiter asks if I would like to see the wine list I do not start shouting at him because he offered me something extra..I either accept and pay for the wine or just say no thanks and I go on and enjoy my meal.

I think quite a few are just complaining as they seen a chance to complain about something.

After the Hellgate:London disaster i dont think too many ppl will jump on the life sub bandwagon. It does work for Turbine games though!

(AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH  teaches Hugh Hefner and the 2009 models to dance at the playboy mansion!)

Originally posted by brad813

For a Star Trek game, this one is extremely well made, but then you don't have many decent Star Trek games to compare it with.  I have every confidence it will only get better.  I also preorder the Collector's Editions because they are extremely difficult to obtain and the extras, for me, are well worth it.  I do thoroughly enjoy this game, and if Cryptic does extend the offer to March 1st later, I will likely get a lifetime subscription, especially considering I get periods where I get busy and then get slow periods in my life.

Decent Star Trek games ARE a rarity, IMO.  Bridge Commander was pretty decent, and there was an old Super Nintendo Next Generation game that was likable at the time.  That's about it.

Bringing Star Trek to MMO's is without a doubt a huge and tricky undertaking, and I don't envy Cryptic for the undertaking.  That said, I haven't seen ANYTHING in game that makes me think, "ah, that was pretty clever of them to resolve this issue this way, which allows them to bring this aspect of the IP into the game as an enjoyable gameplay feature...", etc. 

Instead, I see:  Everyone wants to be a captain(no, I'm not advocating PC crews).  No one wants more than one solution to a problem(ground diplomacy).  Explorers will be happy mining nodes, and those nodes will have nothing more than stuff to turn in to get stuff, and despite being called something interesting, won't even be slightly interesting.

Again, all this could be different as you increase in rank, and by all means, please provide evidence that I'm wrong; I'd love to hear it.  But from what I've seen, we have two modes of gameplay; shooting/collecting stuff on the ground, shooting/collecting stuff in space.  And if diplomacy is(as I have experienced) a matter of running around reading dialogue from a handful of people, and repeating it to the mission contact, there's not much there, either.

Originally posted by Frobner

Do not preorder - or buy lifetime subs of ANY games.  Never - ever.

The fact that they are adding Borg as ONLY awailable if you have lifetime sub is a disgrace and once again shows how a gaming developer and a publisher is NOT thinking about the game - ONLY the money they could make.  And ofc Im talking about the money they could make BEFORE the game is even launched - and ppl might realise that its not even playable.

Do NOT preorder

Do NOT buy lifetime subs.

 

The gamers can influence how we want to see the future.  And we want games to play.  Thats all.  The job of the developer is to release the game in playable state and THEN the gamers can buy them IF they like what they see from trials, from reviews - but MAINLY what they hear from other gamers.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a single solid reason why the lifetime sub can't be offered until at least the end of the first month post-release. Call it what you want, but I see that as both a chain-yank on the usual gamer's impulse of "I gotta get it now, or else! ARGGH!!" and a lack of confidence in customer rentention. I know retention is likely one of the biggest problems developers face, but moves like this make that especially clear.

And about "selling" an exclusive race, I don't know, maybe the industry's changing and I don't realize; but why are developers selling their game in pieces like this?  Don't even get me started on how terrible RMTs can be. How soon until devs decide to create their game in such a way that they make money off of every single aspect of it? Sorry, expansions is where I draw the line. I figured selling a box (or...simply a retail key to access the game...) and latching on a monthly fee was enough...but I guess I'm wrong. Either developers really need it or they're just being greedy while putting up smoke and mirrors. Whatever happened to simply making a fun game, I thought gamers liked those? "Businesses need to make money, DUH" - I don't want to hear it. There's a difference between creating and selling a game to make money and creating a money-making vehicle disguised as a game. The latter is the foundation for craptasticness.

 Sure, I may have the wrong impression of Cryptic, but I hate the way they market their games, which I personally feel are quite shallow. Hell - and I'm sure Atari influenced this - their games feel very "arcadey" compared to more engaging MMOs. Maybe the players are to blame; it seems like this is all of question of lack of faith in one's product vs. being realistic about how rigid the industry can be. But again, these are all just my thoughts.

It's a huge gamble I'd never take, but for anyone who decides or has decided to partake in it, I hope you can enjoy the game for at least 15-16 month's and get your money's worth. CO showed us a lot of (significant) things can change (significantly) on release day and thereafter.

I think everyone needs to try and play the beta(there are keys left) and decide if the game is for them.  There are areas where it is still a bit rough, which is normal for any new mmo, but being not playable is a bit of a stretch.  I do think the space battles are overly simplified(i want the ability to have a more custom space experience), but the ground missions are truly engaging(no pun intended).

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by VultureSkull 

You still have not explained how it is a great deal for Cryptic, simply repeating over and over will not make it true you know!

Either you are not making your point clear, or your math is seriously flawed.

$240 is a lot more money than $75. Is that not clear?

 

Yeah maybe my point is not getting across, nothing to do with maths.

Let me try and explain again: 

If i pay for a life time sub, and then stop after 3 months then i lose. That i agree on.

But I cannot see how Cryptic gain anyhting if I quit early. Cos they will not make any changes to their server or their development costs based on my quitting. They will not say "oh look one of our Life Time subs have quit we therefore do not need a server of X size anymore we can cut back and use a smaller server."

So if i played or not, it iwill not have any effect on Cryptic expenditure. One extra player on the server or the absence of one player will not have any effect on their costs. Hence no benefit to them if i quit early.

 If, when i quit, Crytic could reduce the supply of their service then they will benefit, if the supply remains unchanged (which is will) then they will not gain anything from my quitting.

Ulitmately Crytics cost are fixed and not variable based on one or two subs.

(AND even if they could reduce the servuice after i quit, they would not cos i could always come back, since i have a life time sub, and then they would have to increase the service again. )

I get what you are saying... and you are wrong.

You would be right IF (and only if) your lifetime sub guaranteed that you could always log in and play on demand - but it doesn't do that.  It doesn't do that at release - and it won't do that in 3 months or a year from now.

Cryptic will maintain a number of servers based on population in game.  They will allow for some load variation based on peak loads on weekends, holidays and special events.
But what they won't do is continue to maintain idle servers based on the possibility that all of their lifetime sub members all suddenly decide to log in together at once a year from now.

If that was ever to happen and they had removed servers do to a falling population (or hours played) then the harsh reality is that many of those people would not be able to log in.  Lifetime sub or not.

And what can you do about it?

Say "I have a lifetime sub - so it's my RIGHT to play ON DEMAND!"?
Well, you can say that, but it makes no difference.  Because somewhere in the terms and conditions it will say you are not guaranteed to be able to play every time you try to log in.  And no court would support you either because that is simply 'unreasonable'.

So that means that if you pay a lifetime sub - yes Cryptic get your money - and yes if you stop playing (along with many others) they can reduce their services.  They can cut servers and customer support and a host of other things.
They are NOT obliged to maintain a full service for years to come on the off chance you might decide to log in.

 

Yeah i see what you are saying and u are right however you seem to be getting bogged down by my statement that they have to maintain servers incase the LS come back. That is just a side point.

The main point i was trying to get across is that Cryptic would not gain anything from a Life time subber quiting the game. If they quit after 2 months then Cryptic would not automatically make $200  ($230 - (2 X $15) =$200) as MMO DOubter seems to think, as their costs would not decrease if one LS leaves.
 

I don't normally troll. But really...

Pay

a sub.

for the game.

for the expansions.

for things in an Item Mall.

I don't think they have announced per say an item mall but judging by their other games its coming.

I like to pay my fee for the servers and game patches and fixes and perhaps the trouble shooting and general release of content and hell even for a expansion if it has a lot of new content.

But once again... I will pay my fee and buy my game and play but seriously item mall/game/subscription/ and expansions.

Seems like its a bit much right?

I may even be willing to work with the whole item mall buying the game thing... but seriously... I have to pay for my net, my computer my electricity along with all the other bills in life.

I remember when gaming used to be something I did for fun or perhaps a hobby.

Seems to me the more and more gaming companies are trying to turn it into an addiction and one that you must feed. Buy this buy this, as we slide it under the door in small payments.

I play Atlantica and I realize they have an item mall... but at least its free and somewhat Item mall vs. in game itemization balanced.

Anyway I guess this is a plea to keep gaming a fun hobby and not a time consuming investment of my dollars where everyone is trying to get a piece of the pie while giving as little as possible as far as game content. Oh and for heavens sake just to throw a book on the fire something a little different than the WoW/War/Aion/DAoC/EQ/AC/RF/OU/Lineage/FF11 the list goes on way of playing and structure of the game... sure you change the talent style/level progression/trade skills but it still goes down to grinding a lot, leveling a lot and getting a limit few ways to customize.

Oh, and I know people are going to troll a bit but not to hate On the prior games... some of these were my favorites of all time... FOR THERE TIME :)

Rant complete :)

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

$290 for a game?  No thanks, it will get old after 2 months and you guys will be back here crying because you wasted your money (look at how fast Champions Online got old).  We should be able to buy a game and actually get ALL of the same content in it, not be forced to pay these outrageous prices just to get the good stuff...

 

And like said before, you still have to buy the expansion packs.  This company is in it to make as much money as they can, not caring if they ruin their image or startrek's image.

Exactly right. It's almost comical how shameless this is.

I don't think I have to explain what I think of this 'offer' to the regulars here.

Selling entire player races now?

Its not a whole race ! Its a liberated borg AKA an avatar choice.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 Wow, ... on the one hand a playable race for the lifers is a big deal, but ultimately they are selling the race, not just the lifetime sub.  The main issue will be 3 months down the line when they release the borg race as a Micro Transaction, and then suddenly those that took advantage of this "deal" suddenly become just another guy who overpaid for their product.

 

I really don't like the way cryptic is handling this... but judging from the popularity of their games recently, I guess they have to make money somehow.

And you know full well that is going to happen. To me, Cryptic is nothing more than one of those sleazy, shady people you get at one of those games at your local carnival, but on a grander scale.

As someone that fell in love with MMOs due in large part to CoH, it's sad to see how far they have fallen. 
 

Originally posted by Bifkek

Originally posted by Frobner

Do not preorder - or buy lifetime subs of ANY games.  Never - ever.

The fact that they are adding Borg as ONLY awailable if you have lifetime sub is a disgrace and once again shows how a gaming developer and a publisher is NOT thinking about the game - ONLY the money they could make.  And ofc Im talking about the money they could make BEFORE the game is even launched - and ppl might realise that its not even playable.

Do NOT preorder

Do NOT buy lifetime subs.

 

The gamers can influence how we want to see the future.  And we want games to play.  Thats all.  The job of the developer is to release the game in playable state and THEN the gamers can buy them IF they like what they see from trials, from reviews - but MAINLY what they hear from other gamers.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a single solid reason why the lifetime sub can't be offered until at least the end of the first month post-release. Call it what you want, but I see that as both a chain-yank on the usual gamer's impulse of "I gotta get it now, or else! ARGGH!!" and a lack of confidence in customer rentention. I know retention is likely one of the biggest problems developers face, but moves like this make that especially clear.

And about "selling" an exclusive race, I don't know, maybe the industry's changing and I don't realize; but why are developers selling their game in pieces like this?  Don't even get me started on how terrible RMTs can be. How soon until devs decide to create their game in such a way that they make money off of every single aspect of it? Sorry, expansions is where I draw the line. I figured selling a box (or...simply a retail key to access the game...) and latching on a monthly fee was enough...but I guess I'm wrong. Either developers really need it or they're just being greedy while putting up smoke and mirrors. Whatever happened to simply making a fun game, I thought gamers liked those? "Businesses need to make money, DUH" - I don't want to hear it. There's a difference between creating and selling a game to make money and creating a money-making vehicle disguised as a game. The latter is the foundation for craptasticness.

 Sure, I may have the wrong impression of Cryptic, but I hate the way they market their games, which I personally feel are quite shallow. Hell - and I'm sure Atari influenced this - their games feel very "arcadey" compared to more engaging MMOs. Maybe the players are to blame; it seems like this is all of question of lack of faith in one's product vs. being realistic about how rigid the industry can be. But again, these are all just my thoughts.

 

It's a huge gamble I'd never take, but for anyone who decides or has decided to partake in it, I hope you can enjoy the game for at least 15-16 month's and get your money's worth. CO showed us a lot of (significant) things can change (significantly) on release day and thereafter.

Yeah you draw the line at Expansions, which, like it or not, is a massive form of RMT. And like it or not RMT is unofficial rife in almost all games(MMOs), made available by Gold Sellers.

Let me ask you : what the difference between going  to an RMT and buying an item with real cash and going to buy gold from a gold seller with real cash and then buying same item from the auction house? Answer= RMT is safe and you wont get your cc details stolen etc.

And finally, there are a lot of moaners that complain that MMO companies want to make money and the same people complain that games are not released complete, polished and content rich.

 If MMO devs dont make money how on earth are they going to make the games you want? You think your government  subsidises them lol!

It is not as if the MMO producers are rolling in cash, it is a poor industry and the only ones who will pay for it are the players(us). So either pay up or shut down cos you cannot have your cake and eat it!! Sounds like you want free entertainment load of cheap skates!

My God guys wake up and smell the coffee already!!

Originally posted by daylight01

Originally posted by banthis

Being able to play as a liberated borg as the only perk to the Lifetime Subscription is hardly worth the 40 dollar increase over the original / standard Lifetime price of Champions and even Lord of the Rings.   the fact they talk about character slots means STO is getting a cash shop too....rofl :)  I pretty much expected the shop with Champions but for Star Trek?! 

 

I'm laughing my ass off at anyone crazy enough to buy the STO lifetime.  Its a rip off.  Atleast for the Champions one they got 2 exclusive costume sets, 4 additional character slots, and entrance to the STO closed beta (which ended up not being worth it) oh and a special fox bat action figure (ingame pet).

In all fairness mate that is your opinion.

I have no idea how bad CO was but this game (at least for me )is a lot of fun and the potential is scary,from what I heard about CO the game was almost a non-starter,I can not confirm this,but I have to be honest this game not only has the potential to go right to the top it is already a very solid and fun game.

Is it worth the cash for a lifetime sub?

Well for me it is,I can spend that money in a month on steam games and be bored(remember it is only 4 new games)so the thought if I do get bored after maybe 2-3 months and come back 2-3 months later after patches then yes it is worth the cash.

I know not evey mmo is the same but my mates that bought the lifetime sub for lotro are laughing right now,with STO I am willing to take that chance.

I, myself bought the Lotro lifeitme and I'm extremely happy I did. Having said that, comparing Cryptic to Turbine is like comparing a fast food hamburger to prime rib.




 

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Guillermo197

LMAO!  Here we go again!

People that get suckered in with lifetime sub, especially after the whole CO fiasco, deserve to be scammed now.

I won't feel any pitty for them. Not this time.

I just came from another site and logic has left the building.

It's like a feeding frenzy... Cryptic could release a box full of dead hamsters and they will still clean up on this.

 

 

And other developers will watch and learn...

and that is exactly why Cryptic stopped giving a $#!% about the product itself!


 

I think the lifetime subscription would be a great option to have after the game has been out for a month or two. The reason for this is because of the game need to be tried and tested by the rest of us first to see what kinda bugs the game has and see if the game is hacker proof. I for one don't want my lifetime subscription spoiled by a bunch of hackers that may just kill  the game. I have been playing Star Trek online games along time and in the past I have been dissappointed because the powers that be decided to pull the plug and shut down the servers becuse the game wasn't making the money they wanted. So who's to say the same wont happen here? I want assuranced I will beable to play here for the rest of my life if I choose to do so. And so far I haven't seen any. So like I said in the begining once the game has been out for a while and tested by the general public then make life time subscription available at a affordable price.

Thank you and I hope this gives the ppl who read it food food for thought.

MrTorres

Live Long and Prosper

It sounds a little fishy to me, you have to buy the LIFETIME subscription BEFORE you get to play the game?!?

The open beta is just that, a beta, it is not a free trial of the game. A lot (most) of the game is missing or turned off in the beta. You cannot make a lifetime decision on a couple of weeks of playtime on a restricted beta copy.

I really liked CoH, and it was great that they released huge amounts of improvements for free. If they said that lifetime for STO included the updates for free, it might be a good deal. However, if they charge for updates, add a cash shop, etc, then the lifetime subscription doesn't look too good to me.

I bought the 6 month offer on champions which runs out next month, i don't even have the game installed any more.

Im going to stick to monthly with sto for sure, wasted enough on champions.

My m8 got offered a half price lifetime  lotro sub by codemasters, at the time i was subbing so did not get the offer but next time that comes up i will snap one up straight away.

First of all you don't have to buy anything, but you at least have the option.  As far as the so called cash shop, even WoW has one, but granted it is limited to special services and features.  A cash shop is an excellent idea when it serves as a segmental expansion where it features races and classes that not everyone may want.  Unfortunately with some item shops, the companies  have gotten carried away or players use it as a way to farm.

If you have the expendable income, why not get this option if you like the game?

There are much bigger rip offs then this. I've had dinners cost almost as much, and that was only one night with friends & family.  This offer is for the life of the service being offered.

I am not an advocate of companies finding new ways to charge us for entertainment, but that is reality.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Bifkek

Originally posted by Frobner

Do not preorder - or buy lifetime subs of ANY games.  Never - ever.

The fact that they are adding Borg as ONLY awailable if you have lifetime sub is a disgrace and once again shows how a gaming developer and a publisher is NOT thinking about the game - ONLY the money they could make.  And ofc Im talking about the money they could make BEFORE the game is even launched - and ppl might realise that its not even playable.

Do NOT preorder

Do NOT buy lifetime subs.

 

The gamers can influence how we want to see the future.  And we want games to play.  Thats all.  The job of the developer is to release the game in playable state and THEN the gamers can buy them IF they like what they see from trials, from reviews - but MAINLY what they hear from other gamers.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a single solid reason why the lifetime sub can't be offered until at least the end of the first month post-release. Call it what you want, but I see that as both a chain-yank on the usual gamer's impulse of "I gotta get it now, or else! ARGGH!!" and a lack of confidence in customer rentention. I know retention is likely one of the biggest problems developers face, but moves like this make that especially clear.

And about "selling" an exclusive race, I don't know, maybe the industry's changing and I don't realize; but why are developers selling their game in pieces like this?  Don't even get me started on how terrible RMTs can be. How soon until devs decide to create their game in such a way that they make money off of every single aspect of it? Sorry, expansions is where I draw the line. I figured selling a box (or...simply a retail key to access the game...) and latching on a monthly fee was enough...but I guess I'm wrong. Either developers really need it or they're just being greedy while putting up smoke and mirrors. Whatever happened to simply making a fun game, I thought gamers liked those? "Businesses need to make money, DUH" - I don't want to hear it. There's a difference between creating and selling a game to make money and creating a money-making vehicle disguised as a game. The latter is the foundation for craptasticness.

 Sure, I may have the wrong impression of Cryptic, but I hate the way they market their games, which I personally feel are quite shallow. Hell - and I'm sure Atari influenced this - their games feel very "arcadey" compared to more engaging MMOs. Maybe the players are to blame; it seems like this is all of question of lack of faith in one's product vs. being realistic about how rigid the industry can be. But again, these are all just my thoughts.

 

It's a huge gamble I'd never take, but for anyone who decides or has decided to partake in it, I hope you can enjoy the game for at least 15-16 month's and get your money's worth. CO showed us a lot of (significant) things can change (significantly) on release day and thereafter.

 

Yeah you draw the line at Expansions, which, like it or not, is a massive form of RMT. And like it or not RMT is unofficial rife in almost all games(MMOs), made available by Gold Sellers.

Let me ask you : what the difference between going  to an RMT and buying an item with real cash and going to buy gold from a gold seller with real cash and then buying same item from the auction house? Answer= RMT is safe and you wont get your cc details stolen etc.

And finally, there are a lot of moaners that complain that MMO companies want to make money and the same people complain that games are not released complete, polished and content rich.

 If MMO devs dont make money how on earth are they going to make the games you want? You think your government  subsidises them lol!

It is not as if the MMO producers are rolling in cash, it is a poor industry and the only ones who will pay for it are the players(us). So either pay up or shut down cos you cannot have your cake and eat it!! Sounds like you want free entertainment load of cheap skates!

My God guys wake up and smell the coffee already!!

"Don't even get me started on how terrible RMTs can be." That's what I said. It's right there. I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make about RMTs but I have never considered buying gold, nor do I ever plan to. The thing I dislike about the general ideas behind RMTs (server transfers, name changes, etc. aside) is that to me, it's like the developers are holding back.

So instead of buying the game and paying your sub for everything, certain things are put aside so they can be "sold" seperately. Naturally this works for F2P games, and it's obvious why they're there in the first place. If "it's just fluff" and all that, then why even spend the resources to put them in? But I suppose they're that appealling for some people, even in games that already have a monthly subscription...Anyways, I am of course in no position whatsoever to tell people how to spend their money, it's just a trend I disagree with.

And all that stuff you wrote in red just shows you didn't read most of my post. Seems like you stopped on the RMTs bit.

The only way I would ever consider buying life time subscription is if I have played a game for like 6 months and don't see myself stopping soon... you have to be a sucker to do it if you only played up to a few weeks.